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Leader and troop experience and morale values

 
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Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/19/2006 10:43:31 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		Besides all the noise re the new values since version 8.4, does anyone have the complete list of these values for the earlier versions, that is, pre 8.4?

Post #: 1
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/19/2006 11:17:57 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		I don't have a typed list but can see what they are when i load up 7.1 (the oldest version i own).
H2H is probably closest to the mark. Higher morale levels helps infantry in particular initiate assaults and hold position in defensive entrenchments. Much unlike 8.4

(in reply to omegaall)
Post #: 2
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 12:52:14 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		Does this mean that no one actually knows what the original in program values were for the Leader & Troop experience and morale values were for version 8.2/8.3?

All I am after is a list similar to the one Mike posted for v4.3x so they can be compared and I want to do a few tests.


(in reply to soldier)
Post #: 3
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 2:48:03 AM   
TheDesertRat


Posts: 119
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline 		Chicken feed >>>>

--- leader exp ---
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 // JAPANESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // FRENCH
50, 55, 60, 60, 60, 65, 70 // BRITISH
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // BELGIUM
30, 30, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 // DUTCH
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // POLISH
35, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 // SOVIET
40, 45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70 // US ARMY
45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // US MARINE
25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 35 // CHINESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55, 50 // GREEK
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // NORWEIGAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // YUGOSLAVIAN
50, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // INDIA
50, 60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // FREE FRENCH
25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // BULGARIA

--- leader morale ---
65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 // GERMAN
65, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 // FINNISH
45, 40, 40, 45, 35, 35, 35 // ITALIAN
35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 70, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // JAPANESE
40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 // FRENCH
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // BRITISH
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // BELGIUM
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // DUTCH
50, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 // POLISH
35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 // SOVIET
45, 50, 55, 65, 75, 75, 75 // US ARMY
60, 65, 65, 70, 75, 80, 80 // US MARINE
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 35 // CHINESE
60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NORWEIGAN
40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 // INDIA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // FREE FRENCH
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 // BULGARIA

--- troop exp ---
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // FINNISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 60, 55, 55 // ITALIAN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 50, 50 // RUMANIAN
45, 50, 60, 60, 55, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 65 // JAPANESE
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FRENCH
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // BRITISH
45, 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // BELGIUM
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // DUTCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // SOVIET
55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
60, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
45, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NORWEIGAN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // YUGOSLAVIAN
55, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // CANADA
45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // ANZAC
50, 55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 45, 45 // BULGARIA

--- troop morale ---,
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // FINNISH
65, 65, 60, 60, 55, 65, 65 // ITALIAN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45 // RUMANIAN
60, 60, 65, 65, 60, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
70, 70, 70, 75, 75, 70, 70 // JAPANESE
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // FRENCH
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // BRITISH
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // BELGIUM
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // DUTCH
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75 // SOVIET
60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
65, 65, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NORWEIGAN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
60, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 75 // CANADA
55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // ANZAC
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55, 55, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 45, 45 // BULGARIA


_____________________________

Good Bye!!!

(in reply to omegaall)
Post #: 4
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 6:05:07 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		How did you do that Desert Rat ?
Looks the same as 7.1 values with US army and Marines being better or equal to UK, Germany & Japan in 1942

(Is this an all Australian thread so far?)

< Message edited by soldier -- 2/20/2006 6:09:52 AM >

(in reply to TheDesertRat)
Post #: 5
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 6:14:50 AM   
TheDesertRat


Posts: 119
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline 		Never ask a Rat how he gets things!!!

Only one point is I may have teh troop experience and moral values swapped. Just going through a check on this.
Your comment seems to imply that an accidental swap occured.

quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

How did you do that Desert Rat ?
Looks the same as 7.1 values with US army and Marines being better or equal to UK, Germany & Japan in 1942

(Is this an all Australian thread so far?)


Sounds like it but it also seems few actually know the real values



_____________________________

Good Bye!!!

(in reply to soldier)
Post #: 6
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 8:05:18 AM   
TheDesertRat


Posts: 119
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline 		After some extra checking i suspect teh original list had teh troop experience and troop morale switched...

Well I suspect for many all this means little anyway..

--- leader exp ---
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 // JAPANESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // FRENCH
50, 55, 60, 60, 60, 65, 70 // BRITISH
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // BELGIUM
30, 30, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 // DUTCH
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // POLISH
35, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 // SOVIET
40, 45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70 // US ARMY
45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // US MARINE
25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 35 // CHINESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55, 50 // GREEK
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // NORWEIGAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // YUGOSLAVIAN
50, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // INDIA
50, 60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // FREE FRENCH
25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // BULGARIA

--- leader morale ---
65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 // GERMAN
65, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 // FINNISH
45, 40, 40, 45, 35, 35, 35 // ITALIAN
35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 70, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // JAPANESE
40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 // FRENCH
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // BRITISH
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // BELGIUM
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // DUTCH
50, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 // POLISH
35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 // SOVIET
45, 50, 55, 65, 75, 75, 75 // US ARMY
60, 65, 65, 70, 75, 80, 80 // US MARINE
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 35 // CHINESE
60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NORWEIGAN
40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 // INDIA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // FREE FRENCH
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 // BULGARIA

--- troop exp ---
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // FINNISH
65, 65, 60, 60, 55, 65, 65 // ITALIAN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45 // RUMANIAN
60, 60, 65, 65, 60, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
70, 70, 70, 75, 75, 70, 70 // JAPANESE
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // FRENCH
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // BRITISH
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // BELGIUM
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // DUTCH
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75 // SOVIET
60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
65, 65, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NORWEIGAN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
60, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 75 // CANADA
55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // ANZAC
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55, 55, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 45, 45 // BULGARIA

--- troop morale ---
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // FINNISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 60, 55, 55 // ITALIAN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 50, 50 // RUMANIAN
45, 50, 60, 60, 55, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 65 // JAPANESE
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FRENCH
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // BRITISH
45, 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // BELGIUM
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // DUTCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // SOVIET
55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
60, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
45, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NORWEIGAN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // YUGOSLAVIAN
55, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // CANADA
45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // ANZAC
50, 55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 45, 45 // BULGARIA


the values hold for v8.20 and v8.3

At least you all NOW know what the values were you liked and cf them with the new ones you don't like ..

Enjoy it all

_____________________________

Good Bye!!!

(in reply to TheDesertRat)
Post #: 7
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 9:17:52 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		I think you can do quite a lot with Emplacements, I have found them to stiffen defences particulary well, but only if proper chain of command exists.

-Colonel von Blitz-

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

(in reply to soldier)
Post #: 8
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 10:08:14 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well I agree there, but what does that have to do with Troops' Experience, Morale, and Leader values?

(in reply to Colonel von Blitz)
Post #: 9
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 10:25:32 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		azraelck, I replied to Soldiers post: Higher morale levels helps infantry in particular initiate assaults and hold position in defensive entrenchments.

And just meant, that even if morale level is lower, it can be 'corrected' up to a point by using emplacements (that only few PBEM players actually use). Still, you're right, I was a bit off-topic...sorry.

-Colonel von Blitz-

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

(in reply to azraelck)
Post #: 10
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 10:30:54 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Ah. The wording of it made it seem somewhat random.

(in reply to Colonel von Blitz)
Post #: 11
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 10:55:12 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		Just interested, from where these values for different countries were taken originally? Some of those numbers just seem so random...

Most of them work ok, but some of them just are so low, that there's no point trying to PBEM with certain countries, without turning off the 'Historic Ratings'. And if that is turned off, you just have one value for three parameters (Morale, Experience, Leader Skill)...how about letting players controlling all three of them separately?

-Colonel von Blitz-

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

(in reply to azraelck)
Post #: 12
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 2:05:04 PM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		Thanks for all this.
One thing that I was after was the issue of the real difference between the old values and new ones and are they really that much different.

Below I hope give this difference. The big thing i can not as yet determine is teh way this difference operates. ie a change of 5 in the 30 range seems form comments not to be the same as a change of 5 in the 70 range...
I am not trying to start a new war on these values but just deliver some level of fact to the whole thing..

Assuming the table comes out propely:
diff of 4 is an increase from 8.3 to 8.4x
diff of -4 is a decrease from 8.3 to 8.4x


8.2 and 8.3 _______________ 8.4 and 8.403 ___________ diff as 8.4 value - 8.3 value
39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ___ 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ___ 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45
LEADER EXPERIENCE
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 ___ 70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, 0, 0, 0 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 ___ 30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, 0, -5, -5 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 30, 30, 30, 30, 25, 20, 20 ___ 0, 0, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -5, -5, -10, -10, -15, -15, -10 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 5, 5, -5, 0, 0, 0, 5 // JAPANESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 40, 40, 40, 40, 35, 35, 35 ___ -5, -5, -10, -10, -15, -15, -15 // FRENCH
50, 55, 60, 60, 60, 65, 70 ___ 50, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ 0, -5, -5, -5, 0, -5, -10 // BRITISH
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 5, 5, 0, 5, 5, 5, 10 // BELGIUM
30, 30, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 15, 15, 10, 15, 15, 15, 20 // DUTCH
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -5, -10, -5, 0, 5, 5, 5 // POLISH
35, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ -5, -10, -10, -10, -10, -5, 0 // SOVIET
40, 45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 50, 55 ___ 0, -5, -5, -10, -10, -20, -15 // US ARMY
45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 55, 55, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70 ___ 10, 5, -5, -5, -5, 0, 0 // US MARINE
25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 35 ___ 25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 40 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5 // CHINESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55, 50 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, -5, 0, 5, 5, 10 // GREEK
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 5, 5, -5, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NORWEIGAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 50 ___ 10, 10, 5, 10, 20, 30, 25 // YUGOSLAVIAN
50, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 5, -5, -10, -5, -5, 0, 0 // CANADA
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ 5, 10, 10, 10, 15, 15, 15 // INDIA
50, 60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 55, 55, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65 ___ 5, -5, -5, -5, 0, 0, 0 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, -5 // FREE FRENCH
25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 ___ 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // COMMUNIST CHINA
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // BULGARIA
LEADER MORALE
65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 ___ 5, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // GERMAN
65, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 ___ 5, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // FINNISH
45, 40, 40, 45, 35, 35, 35 ___ 40, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -5, -5, -5, -10, -5, -10, -10 // ITALIAN
35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // RUMANIAN
40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 ___ 35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ -5, -10, -5, 0, -5, -5, -5 // HUNGARIAN
65, 70, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 5, 0, 0, -5, -5, -5, -5 // JAPANESE
40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ 40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // FRENCH
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // BRITISH
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, -5, 0, 5, 10, 5 // BELGIUM
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ 5, 5, 0, 5, 10, 15, 10 // DUTCH
50, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 60, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 60 ___ 10, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -5 // POLISH
35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 ___ 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // SOVIET
45, 50, 55, 65, 75, 75, 75 ___ 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ -5, -10, -10, -15, -20, -15, -15 // US ARMY
60, 65, 65, 70, 75, 80, 80 ___ 55, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ -5, -10, -5, -5, -5, -10, -10 // US MARINE
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 35 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 40 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5 // CHINESE
60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // GREEK
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NORWEIGAN
40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // YUGOSLAVIAN
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // CANADA
45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // INDIA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // FREE FRENCH
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // COMMUNIST CHINA
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // PHILIPINNES
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ 35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // BULGARIA
TROOPS EXPERIENCE
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60 ___ 65, 70, 75, 70, 65, 60, 55 ___ 5, 5, 5, 0, -5, -5, -5 // GERMAN
65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 60 ___ 5, 5, 0, -5, -5, -10, -10 // FINNISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 60, 55, 55 ___ 35, 35, 40, 40, 35, 30, 30 ___ -15, -20, -20, -25, -25, -25, -25 // ITALIAN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 50, 50 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -10, -15, -20, -20, -20, -25, -25 // RUMANIAN
45, 50, 60, 60, 55, 55, 50 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ -10, -15, -25, -25, -25, -25, -20 // HUNGARIAN
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 55 ___ 10, 5, 0, 0, -5, -5, -10 // JAPANESE
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 40, 40 ___ -5, -10, -15, -20, -30, -30, -30 // FRENCH
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ -5, -10, -15, -10, -5, -10, -10 // BRITISH
45, 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 0, -5, -10, -5, -5, -5, 0 // BELGIUM
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 0, 0, -5, 0, 0, 0, 5 // DUTCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 ___ 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -10, -10, -5, 0, 5, 10, 5 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ -15, -15, -15, -15, -15, -10, -10 // SOVIET
55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ -15, -20, -25, -25, -20, -15, -10 // US ARMY
60, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70 ___ -10, -15, -20, -20, -15, -10, -5 // US MARINE
45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 55 ___ 30, 30, 30, 35, 40, 40, 40 ___ -15, -20, -25, -20, -20, -20, -15 // CHINESE
45, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, -10, -15, -15, -10, -5, -5 // GREEK
45, 55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 0, -10, -20, -15, -15, -15, -15 // NORWEIGAN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 50 ___ -5, -10, -10, -5, 0, 5, 0 // YUGOSLAVIAN
55, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -5, -15, -20, -15, -10, -5, -5 // CANADA
45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 40, 45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5 // INDIA
55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -5, -15, -15, -15, -10, -5, -5 // ANZAC
50, 55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 45, 45, 50, 55, 50, 55, 60 ___ -5, -10, -15, -10, -20, -15, -10 // FREE FRENCH
40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55, 65 ___ 30, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45, 55 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // COMMUNIST CHINA
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 50, 50 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 35, 40, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 45, 45 ___ 35, 40, 45, 45, 40, 35, 35 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // BULGARIA
TROOPS MORALE
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -5, -15 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, -10, -10 // FINNISH
65, 65, 60, 60, 55, 65, 65 ___ 40, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -25, -30, -25, -25, -25, -40, -40 // ITALIAN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 ___ -20, -20, -25, -20, -20, -20, -20 // RUMANIAN
60, 60, 65, 65, 60, 55, 50 ___ 35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ -25, -25, -25, -20, -20, -20, -20 // HUNGARIAN
70, 70, 70, 75, 75, 70, 70 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, 0, 0 // JAPANESE
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ -20, -20, -30, -30, -35, -35, -35 // FRENCH
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 ___ 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 0, -5, -5, -5, -10, -10, -20 // BRITISH
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ -10, -15, -15, -10, -5, 0, -5 // BELGIUM
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ -10, -10, -10, -5, 0, 5, -5 // DUTCH
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 ___ 60, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 60 ___ 0, -5, -15, -10, -5, -5, -10 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75 ___ 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 ___ -15, -15, -15, -15, -15, -10, -10 // SOVIET
60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ -20, -20, -20, -20, -15, -10, -10 // US ARMY
65, 65, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75 ___ 55, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ -10, -10, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5 // US MARINE
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 40 ___ -25, -25, -25, -20, -20, -20, -15 // CHINESE
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 5, 0, -5, -10, -5, 0, 0 // GREEK
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ -10, -15, -25, -20, -15, -10, -10 // NORWEIGAN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ -15, -15, -15, -10, -5, 0, 0 // YUGOSLAVIAN
60, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 75 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 5, 0, -10, -5, -5, -5, -10 // CANADA
55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // INDIA
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 5, 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, -10 // ANZAC
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ -20, -20, -10, -5, -10, -10, -15 // FREE FRENCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 65 ___ 25, 25, 20, 20, 25, 30, 30 ___ -30, -30, -35, -35, -30, -25, -35 // COMMUNIST CHINA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55, 55, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 25, 25, 20, 20, 25, 30, 30 ___ -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30 // PHILIPINNES
60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 45, 45 ___ 25, 25, 30, 30, 25, 25, 25 ___ -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -20, -20 // BULGARIA

hope this is useful somewhere..

< Message edited by omegaall -- 2/20/2006 2:07:53 PM >

(in reply to Colonel von Blitz)
Post #: 13
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/20/2006 2:43:10 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: omegaall
Below I hope give this difference. The big thing i can not as yet determine is teh way this difference operates. ie a change of 5 in the 30 range seems form comments not to be the same as a change of 5 in the 70 range...


Change of 5 in 30 range and in 70 range is of course a bit different thing, simply because of percentage. +5 to 30 is ~17% increase of the value, but +5 to 70 is only ~7% increase.

Anyway, thank you for the tables.

-Colonel von Blitz-



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(in reply to omegaall)
Post #: 14
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 4:10:14 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		On looking at the 8.3 numbers I wonder if they are correct ??

Mike would you be able to clarify this for us?

Thanks

(in reply to Colonel von Blitz)
Post #: 15
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 5:21:08 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		You guys are NOT seeing it, and I suspect you haven't tried it. WITH the new national ratings, and WITH the programmer conventions applied, you get a better view of how and why WWII turned out as it did.

That being said, just look at Korpraali's DARs as the Romanians. He's using superior tactics with inferior troops, and doing well.

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Post #: 16
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 2:38:21 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

That being said, just look at Korpraali's DARs as the Romanians. He's using superior tactics with inferior troops, and doing well.

He is playing the Russians who are also hopeless in 8.4. In fact the difference between the 2 countries in 41 is only 10 points in each field which is more typical of the gap in 8.3 and H2H .
I have tried the new ratings with programmer conventions and the Romanian tanks still get 1 shot per turn with 35 EXP and such cannot make targetting adjustment. I can get historical outcomes with the other versions.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 17
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 3:12:40 PM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		Glenn,
Thsi is not an issue heer at all. If you look at my original post in this thread I just simply asked for the old version 8.3 values.

I have never raised any comment re the programmers conventions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

You guys are NOT seeing it, and I suspect you haven't tried it. WITH the new national ratings, and WITH the programmer conventions applied, you get a better view of how and why WWII turned out as it did.

That being said, just look at Korpraali's DARs as the Romanians. He's using superior tactics with inferior troops, and doing well.


Also on that topic I don't disagree with the intent of those conventions as applied.

If you go to your PM I sent you you will see that all I am after is a playing field of fact with respect to this discussion of version 8.3 vs 8.4x

So bluntly I AM SEEING IT!
As I am not raising any issue of dispute here.

My personal issue if any would be the way these numbers behave.. that is is a chaneg of 5 in teh 30s the same as a change of 5 in the 70s or is there some underlying mathematical curve these all sit on. Or is it a simple straight horizantal line relation.

So looking at that it is useful to see how the numbers behave .. face it a LOG base e or 10 curve is a lot different to a straight line of the y = x + c or form or a straigh horizantal one.

Stop trying to defend the new values and the programers convention. Do it too often and people may suspect that there is something wrong..

I suspect these numebsr and the applied convention can stand in their own right as they should!

Also All I did in my last post was to ask is if Mike was able to indicate if these version 8.3 numbers as posted here were in fact the correct version 8.3 values.
This question was asked simply as there appears to be a little confusion in the values. A reasonable question I feel. It may have been baddly worded, that is all.



< Message edited by omegaall -- 2/22/2006 3:15:58 PM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 18
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 3:48:37 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: omegaall
So looking at that it is useful to see how the numbers behave .. face it a LOG base e or 10 curve is a lot different to a straight line of the y = x + c or form or a straigh horizantal one.


I still do not have any real knowledge, but I somehow suspect that the equation gives somewhat asymptotic curve so that with value of 0, you'll get nearly 0 performance and with value 140 (max value for experience/morale IIRC) you'll get maximum performance. In this asymptotic curve 5 point change in 30 range affects more than 5 points change in 70 range.

This would mean, of course, that it really didn't matter anymore whether the experience/morale would be 120 or 130 simply because in that range the difference in performance is almost negligible: both are excellent values

On the other hand, this small change of 10 points in low range means that the performance would increase/decrease more rapidly, resulting in the fact that you'll get a lot better performance with troops of 50 experience/morale than with troops that have 40 experience/morale.

Oh well, I'm just speculating.

-Colonel von Blitz-

< Message edited by Colonel von Blitz -- 2/22/2006 3:49:11 PM >

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(in reply to omegaall)
Post #: 19
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 4:14:22 PM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		I would agree and something of the order of

y = 1 - (1/(x raised to n)
n >=2 ..


(in reply to Colonel von Blitz)
Post #: 20
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 4:32:52 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline
quote:

Q. How do morale and experience points translate into combat capability?
A. The higher the points the better, with 70 being the average, it breaks down as follows;
Morale
40 or less -. Usually turn and run after a shot or two. Very difficult to rally.
40-54 - Conscripts, they really don't want to be there and will look for a
chance to break and run (or hide)
55-64 - Green, lower on the scale, very green.
65-75 - Average, seen some combat, endured some artillery barrages, fairly reliable. Too much pressure and they may break.
76-85 - Pretty solid guys. They can take some punishment. They may break but
they come back fairly easily.
86-95 - Here are the elite, paratroopers, early SS, Marines, Rangers,
Commandos. They don't break easily and in usually one turn are back in the fight
96-105- Fanatical, determined, they keep coming. Cossacks or Cavalry
charges, Banzai attacks, suicide missions.
105 plus - Only killing them will stop them.

Experience
40 or less - Very inefficient. They get killed easily.
40-54 - Little experience with weapons but not much. Don't count on their
accuracy or survival in a hot firefight.
55-64 - Fair at both the offensive and Defensive types of fights. They use
their weapons but are light on results
65-74 - The average soldier, GI, German, etc. Holds his own and does a fair
job of staying alive
75-84 - There are a few marksmen in the group. They'll get some kills, and
do a pretty good job of surviving.
85-94 - Good shots. They get kills and a goodly number of them. They know
how to use defensive tactics and don't take many casualties unless overwhelmed.
95-104 - Pretty deadly. They kill something almost everytime they fire.
105 plus - Get in their sights and you're a dead man!
The leaders also play an influence. Their values correspond in their influence on the men they
control.


From the manual. I believe this indicates that most Minors should have a 55-64 range (assuming you start with an 'untried' unit; many had already been in battles, and should be one higher), based on the above descriptions. That would put their conscripts into the correct range with the -10 penalty for conscripts. It would also make their 'Elite' units equivalent to an average soldier. The manual also states that you can have above average troops, and the leadership rating will make them fight worse, which is what happened to some of the minor nations. This is one area of the manual that seems, to me, to be dead on as far as experience, morale, etc goes with Minors in the game.



Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/22/2006 4:35:07 PM >

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(in reply to omegaall)
Post #: 21
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 4:36:20 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		If the values are in the 35 or below range, the counrty is near usless, on the troop side of things. I think on the leader side the values look pretty good IMO and I have played quite a bit of small games with these new values. The way they stand not if you have crappy leaders you have crappy troops thats just not the case sometime.

Respectfully Submitted

(in reply to omegaall)
Post #: 22
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 4:53:33 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		from the manual....
Experience
Higher experience numbers indicate a unit that will shoot better, be tougher on defense, and degrade in status more slowly under enemy fire. Experienced units are less susceptible to suppression, have a better chance to hit enemy units, spot enemy units better, are harder to spot
themselves, and close assault tanks better. There are four basic experience levels: Green (30-49), Average (50-79), Veteran (80-99), and Elite (100+). Units gain experience at the end of each mission if you are playing a campaign game. Unit experience does not change during a game.
The range is 30 to 140 experience points. Elite units, for example, are units that have over 100experience points.

According to this most "minors" are below even the green troops level.

Does anyone know what the ratings are for countries after 1945??
I always see the numbers from 1939-1945 only.


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(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 23
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 5:31:39 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		Wow, Bulgaria and Republican Spain have been blessed with 35 experience in 1944-45. What are they, recruits with 1 week of training? And Italia and Hungary has 30 in 1944-45, so they must be very Green troops then. One might assume that they're recruits without issued uniform yet, just arrived to training...

But wait, there's more...Romania has been granted whopping 30 in 1943 and even greater 25 in 1944-45. During the early part of the war, they have 35. Yippee! The experience value at 25 I just have to assume that these guys represent limbless recruits from a mental hospital with IQ around 10, going around drooling...what a tribute to Rumanian veterans too...

Come on, maybe major nations could be pumped up a bit and minor countries given at least some sensible values...at the moment, that's just ridiculous. In 1941, maybe early 1942 could mean veteran troops (80-99) for germany as a standard?

-Colonel von Blitz-

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(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 24
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 5:40:21 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		The 8.2-8.3 values look better and better to me, in comparison to their current values...



Goblin

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(in reply to Colonel von Blitz)
Post #: 25
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 5:41:03 PM   
JEB Davis


Posts: 443
Joined: 12/27/2005
From: Michigan, U.T.B.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheDesertRat

...

--- leader exp ---
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 // JAPANESE



Didn't I read somewhere that these are base values to which a randomly rolled amount is added to, which makes the values for each unit HIGHER than these base values? I searched the manual but didn't find this, but "WAWEd.exe" seems to support this - - is this done in the game, or is this just in WAWEd.exe?

Can someone confirm or disprove this to clear up my confusion?






Attachment (1)

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(in reply to TheDesertRat)
Post #: 26
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 6:00:21 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		The actual values are higher or lower than the base number after the variables are added. Purchase some units after setting base value at 40 (or whatever). Purchase standard (non-elite, non-second line) troops, then deploy them and check their numbers. The base number is what a rough average of a large force will turn out to be. Which means a unit with a base of 25 might get 19 for its stat. I'm not sure, but that may be the morale rating of a white tail deer on opening day.....


Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/22/2006 6:01:20 PM >

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(in reply to JEB Davis)
Post #: 27
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 6:01:15 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis
Didn't I read somewhere that these are base values to which a randomly rolled amount is added to, which makes the values for each unit HIGHER than these base values?


I think you're right, but if your base value is 30 and you can have something like +/- 10 (a guess of mine) to that (when purchasing average units), then you very best, super elite, most highly trained unit would have a whopping ~40 of experience...take +10 elite unit, and wow, you can almost have ~50 of exp, if you're lucky.

-Colonel von Blitz-

< Message edited by Colonel von Blitz -- 2/22/2006 6:05:11 PM >

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(in reply to JEB Davis)
Post #: 28
RE: Leader and troop experience and morale values - 2/22/2006 6:22:58 PM   
JEB Davis


Posts: 443
Joined: 12/27/2005
From: Michigan, U.T.B.
Status: offline 		Sorry guys, my mis-memory was telling me the random number was only on the "plus" side. My mistake.

Thanks for the clarification.

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(in reply to Goblin)
Post #: 29
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