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Kursk - 2/22/2006 8:04:36 PM   
Brady


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Today, I watched a documentry on the Sundance Chanel entitled "KURSK, A SUBMARINE IN TROUBLED WATERS"

From the Web Sight:

"When the Russian nuclear submarine Kursk tragically sank in August 2000, official accounts raised more questions than they answered. What caused the explosion that ruptured the sub's watertight hull? Why did rescue efforts take so long? And, perhaps most troubling, what about the American submarine that was reportedly in the same area of the Barents Sea? Investigative French filmmaker Jean-Michel Carré reveals some new details suggesting an American involvement in the disaster that took 118 lives. Peter Coyote narrates. (CCAP/Stereo/Letterbox)"

................

In a Nut shell, the US unhappy about the potential sale of an advanced Wepon system to China sends two US Subs to observe the operation, The USS Toledo and the USS Mephis, Acording to the Film the Toledo actualy ran into the Kursk,a nd then the Memphis Torpedoed the Kursk for fear she was being targeted by the Russians who were a tad trigher happy they felt after being hit by the US sub. The Film offers compelling evidance to suport this. I will not list all of it hear and now but it is quiet a shocker to say the least.

Coments?





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RE: Kursk - 2/22/2006 10:02:10 PM   
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and then the US cancelled a USD10 billion dollar debt owed by the Russians. Compensation for sinking the Kursk? Did you see the photo of the round hole in the side of the Kursk with the skin dented inwards showing that it was hit by an object travelling towards the submarine ie. not a result of the internal explosions? Just about the size of a US Navy torpedo...

It becomes nastier when you consider the possibility that the slow Russian start in asking for help was possibly because they didn't want any survivors who could explain what really happened.

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RE: Kursk - 2/22/2006 10:09:28 PM   
Terminus


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Or maybe, just maybe, it's another bit of conspiracy theory drivel brought to town by media whores desperate for attention.

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RE: Kursk - 2/22/2006 10:17:12 PM   
Brady


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Ya they showed the "hole", like I siad it is a very compelling presentation, I highly recomend the watching of it.

The Big question I have is how did they manage to "silance" both crews of the US boats that were damaged as a result of this incedent. Presently I am buying this, that is how well done this film is.




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RE: Kursk - 2/22/2006 10:24:47 PM   
Black Mamba 1942


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Yeah, top secret rocket propelled torpedoes when missfired will of course be blamed on someone else.

Conspiracy garbage.

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RE: Kursk - 2/22/2006 11:12:58 PM   
Terminus


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The "entry wound" could just as well have been caused by one of the Kursk's OWN torpedoes. Of course the US submarines didn't sink her...

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RE: Kursk - 2/22/2006 11:58:28 PM   
Brady


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Well acording to the report the entry wound is exactly like that caused by a MK 48, but like i said you nead to watch the movie.





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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 12:14:55 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Coments?



As has already been said, just conspiracy drivel.

The Kursk was almost certainly sunk by a primary explosion of the hydrogen peroxide fuel of a torpedo, followed by a much larger secondary explosion of the stacks of stored torpedoes. There is no remotely convincing evidence for any other possibility.

Even the Russians accepted that, after first blaming the incident on a collision with another submarine.

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 12:15:49 AM   
Marc von Martial


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Maybe it was an old german one that hasn't received news that the war is over

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 12:51:09 AM   
Brady


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If you have cable I recomend it:

Monday 02.27.06 at 01:15 PM

On the Sundance Chanel.

Check this sight out:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/KURSK/kursk.html

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 12:53:32 AM   
Terminus


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The website's called www.whatreallyhappened.com? That sort of says it all...

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 1:12:46 AM   
Brady


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Yes and the last passage on the sight concludes that the Russian Goverment and the US goverment agread to conceal the colishion for their mutal benifit.



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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 2:13:20 AM   
Greyshaft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

The Kursk was almost certainly sunk by a primary explosion of the hydrogen peroxide fuel of a torpedo, followed by a much larger secondary explosion of the stacks of stored torpedoes. There is no remotely convincing evidence for any other possibility.

You mean apart from the circular torpedo-sized hole in the front of the Kursk? Have a look at it here... Photo of front of Kursk

quote:

Even the Russians accepted that, after first blaming the incident on a collision with another submarine.

Just like they accepted the $10billion dollar debt cancellation. You can buy a new submarine and pay a few pensions with that kind of money. It also helps avoid WWIII

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 2:55:13 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

You mean apart from the circular torpedo-sized hole in the front of the Kursk? Have a look at it here... Photo of front of Kursk


No I don't mean apart from that. You think that maybe the Russian investigators, who initially were under huge pressure to find a reason to blame the disaster on anybody else managed to "miss" a hole made by a torpedo?

The hole was a marker for the weld where connecting structures joined the inner and outer hulls. It's the point where the support truss broke away during the second explosion.


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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 7:51:11 AM   
Neilster


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Why would a large, exploding torpedo warhead leave a neat hole like that? Even a shaped charge wouldn't. I saw the documentary and I didn't think much of it. From memory there was no scientific analysis of whether a such a hole could be the result of a torpedo strike at all. Hertson's explanation sounds much more likely.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 8:35:24 AM   
Brady


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The Documentry explained that a MK 48 aparently has a depleated uranium penatrating nose pice, intended to puncture the hull on a sub and then detonate inside the sub/target. The MK 48 also acording to the documentry is programed to seak out this very spot to impact the target, or area, since it is likely to be the comand and controle area of most subs. The Documentry also explained that a British expert on such matters disclosed that this is exactly the entry wound that one would expect to find on such a target by a MK 48.

In short the scenario goes like this acording to the documentary:

1) Kursk is gooing about her busisness crusing along.

2) USS Toledo is shadowing her at a very clsoe proximinity.

3) USS Memphis is ordered to observe from a distance.

4) USS Toledo screws the puppy and acedently runs into the Kursk. She moves off...hurt. Kursk increases spead to clear the area.

5) USS Memphis hears all this and runs in to cover Toledos withdrawl, fearing that the soviets may not react well to this. Tenshion is high.

6) Kursk opens outer torpedo doors.

7) Memphis know she will not be able to evade Soviet torps, their to fast if launched she and or toledo will be dommed. Memphis fires a MK 48 at Kursk.

8) It hits...a couple minutes later the secondary detonation ocures which kills kursk.

9) Toledo has moved off but Memphis is close enough to damaged by this secondary exploshion, so damaged that the emergancy bouy is released and found by the soviets.

10) Memphis radios for permishion to go to a Norweigen port to efect emergancy repairs on a NATO frequency. She takes 7 days to make a 2 day trip.

11) She makes port and efect reparis, is photograhed their, Toledo goes to a covered drydock....the rest is all their for the reading.

............

It all sounds very plausable to me, though I must admit some doubt remains, my big question is that two entire crews from the US subs have said nothing so far, or as far as I know they have said nothing.




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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 8:47:46 AM   
SemperAugustus

 

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The Russian/Soviet navy have a long history of submarine problems, either they don't do a good job at preventing accidents or everyone is out to get them...

It wouldn't be the first time a sub sank because of a hydrogen peroxide torpedo either, e.g. HMS Sidon was lost for the same reason in 1955.

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 8:52:57 AM   
Brady


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From the Link above:

A Brief History Of US/Russian submarine collisions
Here's a short list of known collisions.

1961 USS Swordfish (SSN-579) is on a spy mission in Soviet waters when a Soviet sub surfaces underneath it.

196? A US sub, possibly USS Skipjack, on a spy mission in Soviet waters, collides with a destroyer. Finally made public in a New York Times article in 1975.

July 1965. USS Medregal rams a Greek freighter.

March 1966. USS Barbel rams a freighter near North Vietnam.

December 1967. USS George C. Marshall (SSBN-654) is grazed by a Russian sub.

October 9, 1968. This appears to be the historical precedent for the Kursk sinking. A Russian sub operating normally collided with an unknown sub in the Barents sea, leaving a sizable hole in the Russian sub. Russian intelligence notes the arrival of a damaged sub in a Norwegian port a few days later.

November 1969. USS Gato's sail hits the hull of a soviet sub.

March 14, 1970. USS Sturgeon bashes her sonar dome against a Russian sub's sail.

June 1970. USS Tautog is rammed by Black Lila. It is erroneously assumed at the time that Black Lila sank.

March 1971. An unnamed US sub operating 12 miles off of the Soviet coast collides with a Russian sub. Reported in the New York Times in 1975.

Mid-1971. USS Dace hits a Russian sub in the Mediterranean.

Late 1971 or early 1972. USS Puffer is trailing a Soviet sub when the Soviet sub unexpectedly dives, bumping into Puffer.

March 1974. USS Pintado rams a Soviet missile boat while on a spy mission in Soviet waters near Petropavlovsk. Reported in the San Diego Evening Tribune in 1975.

November 3rd, 1974. USS James Madison hits an unknown Russian Victor class attack sub in the North Sea. Reported by columnist Jack Anderson.

1981. HMS Sceptre is trailing a Russian sub and rear-ends it.

October 1986. USS Augusta, while testing a new computer sonar system to make detecting enemy subs easier, rams a Soviet sub. The Augusta claims they rammed a Delta class. Others report it was a Yankee missile boat that subsequently sank.

December 24, 1986. HMS Splendid and a Soviet sub were trying to dodge out of each other's way when they collided. HMS Splendid's towed sonar array became tangled in the other sub and was lost.

February 11, 1992. USS Baton Rouge hits a Soviet sub near Murmansk. For the first time, and in response to Yeltsin's demands, the US Navy publicly acknowledges the collision.

March 20, 1993. USS Grayling with a Russian sub in the Barent's Sea.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Collisions between US surface ships and Russian submarines
The above list does NOT include the numerous times that US surface ships have been involved in collisions with Russian submarines.



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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 9:09:59 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
The Documentry explained that a MK 48 aparently has a depleated uranium penatrating nose pice, intended to puncture the hull on a sub and then detonate inside the sub/target.

Not according to my research. Its warhead contains 292.5 kg of high explosive. Depleted uranium is used in superhigh velocity rod penetrators. They work at supersonic velocities, not 55 knots. Sounds like utter bollocks to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
The MK 48 also acording to the documentry is programed to seak out this very spot to impact the target, or area, since it is likely to be the comand and controle area of most subs. The Documentry also explained that a British expert on such matters disclosed that this is exactly the entry wound that one would expect to find on such a target by a MK 48.

Targetting exact spots on submarines with torpedoes is rubbish. Active sonar doesn't work like that. That's why it's got a big, high-explosive warhead. A hit anywhere or even a near miss is likely to be deadly. From memory we didn't see this British "expert" and this vital part of their case was mentioned in passing. Not very impressive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
It all sounds very plausable to me...

Well it sounds like a gigantic pile of rotting elephant manure to me. They don't seem to know much about Mk 48 torpedoes for a start. This is a picture of what they actually do.

Cheers, Neilster





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Neilster -- 2/23/2006 9:55:48 AM >

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 12:33:31 PM   
Marc von Martial


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If they really insist it was an MK48 that hit the Kursk, then they wouldn´t have found that much of an intact submarine

quote:

It all sounds very plausable to me, though I must admit some doubt remains,


Yep, that's allways the thing with this conspirancy bullshit. It sounds all plausible at first glance. Heck even X-Files sounds plausible

But on further investigation it's all vapor.

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RE: Kursk - 2/23/2006 12:34:36 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

This is a picture of what they actually do.


As it appears on the pictures they make a good job cleaning the smokestacks

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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 8:30:30 AM   
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I completely agree with Neilster, it makes no sense at all; the Mk.48 ADCAP does not have any kind of "depleted uranium penetrator" such a device on a torpedo would hit a Soviet steel/titanium sub hull at 55-60 kts and simply bounce off - maybe scratch the paint if it were sharpish. As for targeting a specific spot there is no way, the torpedo's high-frequency active sonar guidance system does not actually even "see" the hull at all, sonar does not work like that, what it will see is actually the barrier between solid objects and non-solid objects where the sound cannot pass through anymore - i.e. where the water and hull of the sub stop and the air inside the sub starts. All the torpedo will see is a oval-shaped bubble of air that sound will not pass through as easily. Taking into account that the torpedo will not always be approaching the sub from beam-on there is no way to tell it which part of this "bubble" to target, it will usually hit in the middle. In the case of a surface ship it will pass under the "bubble" and detonate because of guidance restrictions keeping it from going to close to the surface and mistaking waves for targets, this results in the "spine breaking" type of explosion seen in Neilster's wonderful pictures.

As for the round hole in the pictures I have no idea what that is, but it is not a torpedo hit - even if some kind of hull-penetrating explosive did exist the result would not look like that, if something punched through the hull and detonated inside the sub why would only the second forward of the entrance be blown off? Destruction should be equal around the point of detonation.

The theory that she was sunk by her own experimental missile-torpedo I think is also rather unlikely, since all Russian super-cavitating torpedoes I am aware of are unguided and would not have the means to turn around and seek the launching ship. They are fired strait and rely on an accurate ballistic firing solution and their high speed.

Oh and the ADCAP is great at cleaning smokestacks ... if you can find the smokestack again

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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 11:36:48 AM   
Terminus


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Suppose the damn thing could have been sunk by a Shkval catastrophically misfiring in the tube, and then cooking off the rest.

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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 12:37:08 PM   
Greyshaft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Viper6
... the Mk.48 ADCAP does not have any kind of "depleted uranium penetrator" such a device on a torpedo would hit a Soviet steel/titanium sub hull at 55-60 kts and simply bounce off...

Not so! The torpedos carried by US subs on northern patrols are specially designed to penetrate the skin of the Kursk class. They do use depleted uranium tipped payloads to penetrate inside the enemy vessel and then release the single Watchmaker who disassembles the front part of the sub. There have been problems with the uranium creating chromosomal abnormalities in the Watchmakers but given what a Watchmaker it wouldn't be easy to detect abnormalities by visual inspection.



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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 1:07:50 PM   
Terminus


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Really? I'd heard that they used big industrial saws with diamond teeth to cut through the side and then deposit the Watchmaker...

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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 1:27:16 PM   
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The Scorpion and Skipjack were both sunk by the Soviet Navy.

Payback's a b----!

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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 8:33:30 PM   
Viper6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? I'd heard that they used big industrial saws with diamond teeth to cut through the side and then deposit the Watchmaker...


ROTF!!!

I hear that technology was developed by the Brits after reportedly loosing one of thier own ships to something similar in the South China Sea ... rumers and speculation though ... conspericy and such ...


< Message edited by Viper6 -- 2/26/2006 8:34:00 PM >


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RE: Kursk - 2/26/2006 9:09:42 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
Coments?


Sorry, I don't buy it either. It just doesn't add up - a lot of folks come at these issues with the assumption that the US is somehow involved, but ignore Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation, backed up by facts, is that engineering/maintenance problems, combined incompetence and secrecy in the higher ranks of the Russian Navy are all that is needed for something like this to happen. The Soviets lost plenty of subs to causes other than collisions.

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RE: Kursk - 2/27/2006 11:07:42 PM   
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I tried to keep an open mind until the "entry wound is exactly like that of a mk48" part. HTF would the producers of the "documentary" know? How many test firings of a mk48 against an oscarII hull did they make? The depleted uranium comment removed what was left of the credibility. Interesting, but I'll put it in the steaming pile category.

It's about time they added the 'Memphis fired a torpedo' to the conspiracy. It never seemed too plausible that a 7800t (approx?) sub rammed and sank a 20000t sub on it's own (one supposedly designed w/ a double hull to help absorb torp damage).

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RE: Kursk - 2/28/2006 12:36:43 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
The depleted uranium comment removed what was left of the credibility. Interesting, but I'll put it in the steaming pile category.


Yeah, it's amazing how many conspiracy theories relating to the US have to somehow involve depleted uranium these days.

Regards,

- Erik

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