RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ?

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/27/2006 7:51:11 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231
So for all people thinking like Demosthenes please do not speak about something that you do not have any knowlage of other then your own opinions made from something you heard...

Do all of you guys from Eastern Europe specialize in being rude?

Oh, ...what s the use.

Nope, we just get annoyed when it's implied that we're soviets that's all.

(in reply to Demosthenes)

Post #: 121

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/27/2006 7:52:20 PM

Nikademus

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Yes, Churchill and Roosevelt were wise to focus on Germany as the greater threat as her industrial potential was far larger than Japan's. Fortunately the Nazi Party didn't grasp the true nature of the war they'd started until too late.

Are there any good books on the Red Airforce that you are aware of? The impression given from Glantz (Kursk) was that the Red Airforce lost massive numbers of planes to the Luftwaffe but won the day through sheer numbers and attrition. By the tail end of the battle the Luftwaffe could only gain local superiority at set times and places allowing her bombers/ground attack aircraft to support the troops. It would seem there was still a huge gap in skill sets if the losses suggested were as high as they were.

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Post #: 122

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/27/2006 7:54:44 PM

String

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Ok, sorry for being rude. It's been a bad weekend.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 123

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/27/2006 8:30:29 PM

pauk

Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231
So for all people thinking like Demosthenes please do not speak about something that you do not have any knowlage of other then your own opinions made from something you heard...

Do all of you guys from Eastern Europe specialize in being rude?

Oh, ...what s the use.

greetings... i do not find anything rude in that, in fact all people who lived (or their parents) during commie system have numerous reasons to hate Soviet communists. Therefore, we didn't trust (i did not) official history propaganda... as you may know Yugoslavia had softer political system than CCCP and we could find all relevant data from the western historians (although it was hard to find those books but it was possible)...

I just want to say again - i have same info as String have. And i got it from western authors... you can ignore my post, you can denie that but this is a fact - Allies were generous with awarded kills by bombers crew (purpose: keep their moral on satisfying level).

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Post #: 124

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/27/2006 8:44:47 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

Allies were generous with awarded kills by bombers crew

Actually no real "purpose" there. The principal difficulty was that US bombers did not mount gun cameras all over the place. Thus while a group could bring home multiple accounts of different German fighters being shot down, it was very difficult to credibly sort out who (or whom) did the shooting of what. You could have three ball turret gunners in a group all whacking the same target, and if their memory of the time of kill differed much it would seem like two or more different planes were destroyed.

Real bomber vs axis fighter loss ratios to A2A combat will never be available. I would not be at all surprised to discover that each bomber shot down one fighter on average before it went down, but that's an economic win for the Axis at least in crude tonnage and personnel.

Still, US "official kills" awarded weren't outside of the norm for other ETO powers and loss estimates probably far superior to Japanese official kills awarded to their combat groups.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to String)

Post #: 125

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/27/2006 8:50:50 PM

mdiehl

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The P-51 was designed form the outset to be a fighter, not a ground attack aircraft. It was North American's offered substitute for the P-40 (which North American did not want to build under license) that the UK asked North American to manufacture. The Allison engine was actually pretty good with a turbosupercharger although I do not know if the early Mustangs had TSCs. (The P-38 developed very good performance from Allisons when they had TSCs, and the Y-prototype P-39 had 400mph on Allison engines in 1941 with a supercharger). The early Allison-engined P-51s were slightly superior to contemporary models of the Spit and easily better than contemporary Me-109s.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 126

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 12:32:01 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
The mustang was a good aircraft that could above anything else fly far-very far-all the way to Berlin far. In the end performance and firepower and maneuverabilty were all secondary to flying far. This is why the mustang was the "best" fighter of the war. It was a excellent plane that could range far into enemy airspace and fight some excellent fighters there that really could not go as far. In the end that was the difference

Well point well taken the mustang had a relly impresive Range... and i would agree that it was the best Allied plane of the War... but nothing beats Me-262 Schwable

Well, it is hard to argue as the jets were the beginning of a whole new era. However, with any new technology there was a lot of things to learn.

From a big picture standpoint-not a performance standpoint. These are the criteria I would use in evaluating the best aircraft.

1. Range (Thats why one of my favs. the 109 won't get the prize)

2. Mass production. Could not have been a plane they only made few of. (don't tell me about the Do255).

3. Reliability and ease of maintainence (if it does not fly, it ain't worth crap-read Frank or George)

4. Cost effectiveness. (Late war P38 was as good as anything else in the sky. But it was too damn expensive to build. Wars cost money-best not to waste it.)

5 Flexibility (it does not hurt if you could slap a coupla thousand pound bombs on it)

6. Speed (by the end of the war, the speed vs turning argument was over. Speed kills)

7 Duribility. (delicate does not cut the mustard in a furball)

8 Firepower. (got to be able to fight the bulldog)

9. Cool looks. (Tempest was a great plane, but lets face it, it was just butt-ugly.)

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Post #: 127

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 1:03:02 AM

Hipper

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quote:

The early Allison-engined P-51s were slightly superior to contemporary models of the Spit and easily better than contemporary Me-109s.

Pity they flew like dogs above 20 K though !

probably would have been good if the alison with turbosupercharger was available

unusual to see the US hit by production shortfalls, there must be something behind this !

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Post #: 128

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 3:03:25 AM

Fishbed

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quote:

Are there any good books on the Red Airforce that you are aware of?

Black Cross/Red Star is usually seen as a nice recent source, you should give it a try :)

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/

(in reply to Hipper)

Post #: 129

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 3:42:05 AM

Fishbed

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quote:

It would seem there was still a huge gap in skill sets if the losses suggested were as high as they were.

Skill gap was particulary important in the first years, for simple reasons: poor VVS doctrinas, poor VVS team fight capability because of the lack of radios, and of course pure inexperience of the largest part of the crews (many german units on june 1941 saw fighting in Poland, France and Great-Britain, not to mention Marita or, for some of them afterwards joining the campaign later on, Africa), while on the opposite the Germans had started to develop their news tactics even before the Civil War...

Then this gap, as well as technological gap started to get reduced. Year after year, VVS got more and more serious. They had their "top gun" squadrons too, viable war machines (well as you see it with the P39 successes, nearly everything that flies not that badly is virtually a potential viable war machine for the soviet pilots ;) ), new tactics, partly developped by people like Pokryshkin and his squadron. On the other hand, the pilot pool of Luftwaffe was getting lower and lower, new rookie pilots were more numerous, best battle weary squadrons had to be sometimes relocated to Germany because of the priority to homeland defense, only to get depleted by 1944 by the USAAF fighter cover. If it is true that getting an easy kill on a allied fighter was said to be easier on the Eastern front, by 1943 that's just mere statistics, as it is logical the place you've got thousands of pilots is the one you may get thousands more opportunities to score a shot. People like Hartmann and true experten, who nevertheless may have found not that hard to shoot down russians, remained the minority - experten mattered in a limited air front like Africa, but in the tumultuous overwhelming Eastern Front, you would have needed a thousand Hartmann and a thousand Rudel (to talk about air-to-ground) to make any difference... And then, when you had a Soviet pilot on your tail, that was already a different story, and at that time, experienced Soviet pilot didn't find neither that hard to shoot a rookie german pilot...

AJ

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 130

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 6:06:25 PM

mdiehl

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The ME262 was inferior in almost every respect. All it had was very good speed. That made it a strong candidate for intercepting bombers. It was otherwise a monumental waste of German resources. Had they built more FW190s that would have aided the Germans substantially. Had they built more ME262s they'd have lost the war faster.

The duration was abysmal. 1/2 hour in the air from launch to landing. That made it excessively vulnerable. Poor acceleration and engines that had to be gently nursed into increased throttle. It was at a compelling disadvantage against most fighters because German pilots were not used to deflection shooting much less at the high closing rates offered by a 262. So to get at, say, a P-51 most 262 pilots had to enter the combat around 400 mph... at which speed the P-51 was as likely to eat the ME262s lunch as anything.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 131

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 6:22:18 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

quote:

Are there any good books on the Red Airforce that you are aware of?

Black Cross/Red Star is usually seen as a nice recent source, you should give it a try :)

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/

Thx. I'll add these to the book-list.

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Post #: 132

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 6:58:50 PM

hawker

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quote:

The ME262 was inferior in almost every respect. All it had was very good speed. That made it a strong candidate for intercepting bombers. It was otherwise a monumental waste of German resources. Had they built more FW190s that would have aided the Germans substantially. Had they built more ME262s they'd have lost the war faster.

The duration was abysmal. 1/2 hour in the air from launch to landing. That made it excessively vulnerable. Poor acceleration and engines that had to be gently nursed into increased throttle. It was at a compelling disadvantage against most fighters because German pilots were not used to deflection shooting much less at the high closing rates offered by a 262. So to get at, say, a P-51 most 262 pilots had to enter the combat around 400 mph... at which speed the P-51 was as likely to eat the ME262s lunch as anything.

So,according to you,P-51 is better plane then ME-262!!!
That is serious BS.

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Post #: 133

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 7:01:48 PM

castor troy

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I would also say that 10000 more FW190 would have helped more than 10000 Me262. And I think 10000 FW190 would have performed better. Or 10000 P51. Me262 was a revolutional design though.

(in reply to hawker)

Post #: 134

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 7:10:39 PM

Bradley7735

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

quote:

The ME262 was inferior in almost every respect. All it had was very good speed. That made it a strong candidate for intercepting bombers. It was otherwise a monumental waste of German resources. Had they built more FW190s that would have aided the Germans substantially. Had they built more ME262s they'd have lost the war faster.

The duration was abysmal. 1/2 hour in the air from launch to landing. That made it excessively vulnerable. Poor acceleration and engines that had to be gently nursed into increased throttle. It was at a compelling disadvantage against most fighters because German pilots were not used to deflection shooting much less at the high closing rates offered by a 262. So to get at, say, a P-51 most 262 pilots had to enter the combat around 400 mph... at which speed the P-51 was as likely to eat the ME262s lunch as anything.

So,according to you,P-51 is better plane then ME-262!!!
That is serious BS.

Well, just from the duration in the air, I'd say the P-51 was the better plane. How do you expect to cap your ground forces, escort bombers, and sweep the skies if you only have a 30 min duration?

You know, there are many factors in what makes a great plane. having a one on one engagement where both parties are aware of the other do not necessarily show you which plane is better.

If the 262, Tiger, super subs, ballistic missiles, super battleships, etc etc were so much better, then why didn't the Axis win the war?

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Post #: 135

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 7:27:42 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

So,according to you,P-51 is better plane then ME-262!!!
That is serious BS.

Don't bother trying to get into argument with "mdiehl" it's pointless (just as it is 100% pointless that he who never owned UV nor WitP constantly tries to force his opinions here)... it's of no use (in past years here there were hundreds of pages about "Wildcat vs. Zero", "Sherman vs. Tiger", "Bismarck vs. rest", "Yamato vs. rest" etc.)... the best thing is to ignore him and his posts...

BTW, the most funny thing is when in one argument "faster Wildcat is so much better than maneuvering Zero" and in another "faster Me-262 is inferior to slower but more maneuverable P-51)...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

If the 262, Tiger, super subs, ballistic missiles, super battleships, etc etc were so much better, then why didn't the Axis win the war?

Funny enough NATO (i.e. USA) in post WWII world used just what Germans tried to do in WWII against combined Allies - their main (non-nuclear) option was to match numerical superiority of Russians with quality...

Leo "Apollo11"

P.S. [Edit]
Just typos fixed.

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 2/28/2006 7:29:18 PM >

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(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 136

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 7:52:57 PM

Hoplosternum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

If the 262, Tiger, super subs, ballistic missiles, super battleships, etc etc were so much better, then why didn't the Axis win the war?

I agree with the central thrust of your argument that the stats and potential one on one engagements don't tell the whole story. If the P-51 was as short legged as the Me 262 they would hardly ever have fought it (there were few Spitfire v Me 262 fights I suspect). If the Mustang had been as unreliable as the Me 262 it would have been retired long before the Me 262 went into combat.

But your last paragraph can be answered quite easily by some one who does think the Germans had built wonder weapons. I don't think any of them were but to play devils advocate:

262 - Overwhelmed by inferior allied planes. If only they had built more

Tiger - ditto

Super Subs - Not in production in time.

Ballistic missles - Too late and they lacked the warhead they really needed

Super battleships - I am not touching this

But if you insist

well one was sunk only by most of the RN

And they were so scared of the other they resorted to dropping bunker buster bombs on her

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 137

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 7:57:16 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

Super battleships - I am not touching this But if you insist well one was sunk only by most of the RN And they were so scared of the other they resorted to dropping bunker buster bombs on her

I think (and hope) he meant Yamato/Musashi. Japan is axis too afterall

(in reply to Hoplosternum)

Post #: 138

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 8:29:24 PM

hawker

Posts: 849
Joined: 6/25/2005
From: Split,Croatia
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quote:

Well, just from the duration in the air, I'd say the P-51 was the better plane. How do you expect to cap your ground forces, escort bombers, and sweep the skies if you only have a 30 min duration?

You know, there are many factors in what makes a great plane. having a one on one engagement where both parties are aware of the other do not necessarily show you which plane is better.

If the 262, Tiger, super subs, ballistic missiles, super battleships, etc etc were so much better, then why didn't the Axis win the war?

Bradley,
Only reason why P-51 is "better" then ME-262 is sheer numbers,everybody with any knowledge will agree that ME-262 is much better then any other fighter. If Germans has these planes in numbers allied bombers never fly over Germany,or they fly with great losses on their side.
365 (i think) Tiger tanks produced in whole war and 50000 Shermans.Tiger is much much better than Sherman in every apect except speed. Imagine what will Germans do with 50000 Tigers. King Tiger is best tank of WW2,this tank is only outclassed by Soviet IS-3 tank. BTW,IS-3 was best tank in the world 10 years after WW2.

quote:

Don't bother trying to get into argument with "mdiehl" it's pointless (just as it is 100% pointless that he who never owned UV nor WitP constantly tries to force his opinions here)... it's of no use (in past years here there were hundreds of pages about "Wildcat vs. Zero", "Sherman vs. Tiger", "Bismarck vs. rest", "Yamato vs. rest" etc.)... the best thing is to ignore him and his posts...

BTW, the most funny thing is when in one argument "faster Wildcat is so much better than maneuvering Zero" and in another "faster Me-262 is inferior to slower but more maneuverable P-51)...

Leo, potpuno si u pravu. Ne isplati se odgovarati na njegove postove.

quote:

I agree with the central thrust of your argument that the stats and potential one on one engagements don't tell the whole story. If the P-51 was as short legged as the Me 262 they would hardly ever have fought it (there were few Spitfire v Me 262 fights I suspect). If the Mustang had been as unreliable as the Me 262 it would have been retired long before the Me 262 went into combat.

But your last paragraph can be answered quite easily by some one who does think the Germans had built wonder weapons. I don't think any of them were but to play devils advocate:

262 - Overwhelmed by inferior allied planes. If only they had built more
Tiger - ditto
Super Subs - Not in production in time.
Ballistic missles - Too late and they lacked the warhead they really needed
Super battleships - I am not touching this But if you insist well one was sunk only by most of the RN And they were so scared of the other they resorted to dropping bunker buster bombs on her

Totaly agree with you.

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Post #: 139

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 8:35:30 PM

Przemcio231

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Well apart from Speed the Me262 mounter 4x30 mm Cannon a great weapon ageainst the Bombers... the Schwable made the best interceptor in that time... and i recall that i read somewhere that Germans employed Me-109 and Fw-190 to cover the area around the Airfields when the Schawbles were scrambiling and when they were returning home...

As for Super Subs i think class XXI was the best sub of its time well i know the soviets build Foxtrots and Romeo Classes basing on the Design but the Germans were unable to employ those in any numbers that could make any difference

Tigers were deamn good tanks matched only by soviet IS-2 with a 122mm gun... no other Allied tank had a chance in 1 on 1 duel... well as with the subs they apeard in small numbers...

As for German Super BB's well Bismarck and Tirpitz were basicly little redesigned Bayern class BB from WWI... well i kind of think German BB's and BC's Lutzow , Seydlitz , Hindenburg , Konig , Bayern classes where far ahead of its time when build... those ships could take a beatting and still stay afloat... Like Seydlitz after Jutland... compare that to the RN Bc's wich had a tendency to blow up... or BB's wich were sunk with a single torpedo or mine... the example is "Adacius" wich hit a small german Mine... Any way my Point is that the German Battleships were good but... i think building them Germany just wasted the Stell wich could be used to build Tanks

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Post #: 140

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 9:08:43 PM

Demosthenes

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From: Los Angeles CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

quote:

The ME262 was inferior in almost every respect. All it had was very good speed. That made it a strong candidate for intercepting bombers. It was otherwise a monumental waste of German resources. Had they built more FW190s that would have aided the Germans substantially. Had they built more ME262s they'd have lost the war faster.

The duration was abysmal. 1/2 hour in the air from launch to landing. That made it excessively vulnerable. Poor acceleration and engines that had to be gently nursed into increased throttle. It was at a compelling disadvantage against most fighters because German pilots were not used to deflection shooting much less at the high closing rates offered by a 262. So to get at, say, a P-51 most 262 pilots had to enter the combat around 400 mph... at which speed the P-51 was as likely to eat the ME262s lunch as anything.

So,according to you,P-51 is better plane then ME-262!!!
That is serious BS.

Well, just from the duration in the air, I'd say the P-51 was the better plane. How do you expect to cap your ground forces, escort bombers, and sweep the skies if you only have a 30 min duration?

You know, there are many factors in what makes a great plane. having a one on one engagement where both parties are aware of the other do not necessarily show you which plane is better.

If the 262, Tiger, super subs, ballistic missiles, super battleships, etc etc were so much better, then why didn't the Axis win the war?

Bradley7735...shhhh (some people don't know the Axis lost the war...you gotta let them figure that out for themselves

)

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 141

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 9:09:03 PM

Bradley7735

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

And they were so scared of the other they resorted to dropping bunker buster bombs on her

I would argue that the other was so scared of the RN, it wouldn't come out to fight. So, the RN had to resort do bunker busting it in port.

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Post #: 142

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 9:18:40 PM

Bradley7735

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

365 (i think) Tiger tanks produced in whole war and 50000 Shermans.Tiger is much much better than Sherman in every apect except speed. Imagine what will Germans do with 50000 Tigers.

So why didn't Germany build 50,000 tigers? Oh, that's right. because it cost too much to build them. Imagine what the Germans could have done with 50,000 SHERMANs. I bet a million dollars that it would have been more than they accomplished with 365 tigers.

That's probably the main point that Mdiel tries to make with you guys. The cost to build 365 Tigers was detrimental to Germany's war effort. They would have been better off building more, smaller tanks. The same goes with the 262. More FW190's would have been better to their effort. The same goes with missiles and Bismark's.

Sure, a one on one duel between a tiger and a sherman would probably end in a dead sherman. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But, the tiger wouldn't be fighting one sherman. they'd be fighting 16 shermans, 22 P-47's and probably dozens of artillery. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be anywhere near that Tiger. It's going to be dead meat, regardless of whether it kills that first Sherman or not.

One wonder weapon does not win a war. dozens of of very slightly inferior weapons do. And, because you now have dozens instead of one, that slightly inferior weapon becomes superior.

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Post #: 143

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 9:21:08 PM

Przemcio231

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From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
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quote:

Bradley7735...shhhh (some people don't know the Axis lost the war...you gotta let them figure that out for themselves

And what dose that mean???? Well i think all people in Europe know that axis lost WWII we are just saying that Germany had some of the best equipment of the countrys fighting WWII... lucky for all of us they had it in small numbers...

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Post #: 144

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 10:08:24 PM

pauk

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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

If the 262, Tiger, super subs, ballistic missiles, super battleships, etc etc were so much better, then why didn't the Axis win the war?

Greetings Bradley....

hm... i start to write long answer but then again i think it's not neccesarry....

German population - 80 millions, Japan 73 millions...

US - 130 million, UK 50 million, CCCP 190 million... add to that French, Commonwealth, all conquered countries and US industrial strengh and you will get clear picture of it...

EDIT: UPS... millions

BTW, i don't want to be rude, really, but if everyting american was better why they employ Werner von Braun... IIRC both American and Soviets wanted german scienists....

< Message edited by pauk -- 2/28/2006 10:17:55 PM >

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 10:22:53 PM

el cid again

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quote:

Yes, Churchill and Roosevelt were wise to focus on Germany as the greater threat as her industrial potential was far larger than Japan's.

Just remember that "focus" was more rhetorical than real. If you look up the number of planes or ships (or anything else) transferred to the Pacific, it was never the officially stated "15%". In some critical categories it was a majority, and in many about a third. Nor is it clear to me this was the only viable strategy. If you are building up (as we were) and if there are vital strategic interests (the vast majority of the world's tin might be one, and antimony another, and our own territory for another still), you might consider swatting the smaller enemy hard first.
I think in this case it was not possible - we were not good enough in 1942 - and it would have been combat inefficient to close with the Japanese until we got our act together. But possibly it might have led to a shorter war, if we put someone like Nimitz in charge of ALL forces - not just Navy ones. Really joint, something never achieved in PTO.

(in reply to Nikademus)

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 10:27:30 PM

el cid again

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BTW, i don't want to be rude, really, but if everyting american was better why they employ Werner von Braun... IIRC both American and Soviets wanted german scienists....

In Ice Station Zebra (both book and movie) Alastar McClean has a Briish character say to an American one:

"Your German scientists made the satellite. Our German scientists made the film. The Soviet German scientists made the rockets that put the satellite in orbit."

It is only a slight exaggeration. An astonishing amount of German research got taken over - including things that never worked (like atomic powered airplanes and missiles - four US programs with 9 figure budgets each). We actually captured SUPERIOR Japanese submarines - based on "superior hydrodyamic research" - but NEVER tested them - because we "knew" (falsely) that the German designs "must" be better. [See Norman Polmar in Submarines of the Imperial Japanese Navy, back in print after many years not being available - I had to spend a fortune to get a copy but you don't!] For a lengthy technical treatment, see Norman Friedman in US Submarines to 1945 and US Submarines Since 1945. You will find out how we based our modern sonar on German sonar (captured on Prinz Eugen) there too - with a picture of that sonar reassembled surrounding a submarine conning tower! I once learned of a German theory of ECM - passive single station ranging of a radar signal - and practiced with friendly planes being tracked by radar out of my sight - until I was able to call their range within 10% WITHOUT triangulation. I have never met ANYONE (US, Brit, Aussie or even Soviet) who could do that. The USAAF had problem navigating in the Arctic as late as 1950 - but Germany was able to send (Italian crewed) aircraft to Japanese Manchukuo by that route - 3 days a month - navigating when both sun and moon were above the horizon - something we seem never to have learned to do. And the Krakatoa Effect was forgotten by us - we "rediscovered" the "Van Allen Belts" about 1958 - but the Germans based a weapon concept on it during WWII. At least they pay attention to technical history.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 2/28/2006 10:33:10 PM >

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 10:40:14 PM

el cid again

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And what dose that mean???? Well i think all people in Europe know that axis lost WWII we are just saying that Germany had some of the best equipment of the countrys fighting WWII... lucky for all of us they had it in small numbers...

It is false to say the Germans had the best equipment, period. The Germans NEVER had a tank competative with the Russians, for example.
The Germans NEVER had a competative heavy bomber - for a study of all their efforts and attempts see Luftwaffe Over America (new). There are places the Brits or the Americans or even the French had better gear.

The Germans had some superb concepts. Lucky for all they attempted to do TOO MANY of them, resulting in ALMOST NONE having an operational impact. We got a lot of stuff from Germany - but we had to develop it further - and it took us decades to do it. [Sometimes we don't admit it either. Zirconium was a wartime German invention for cladding the elements of nuclear reactors. But since we refuse to declassify Axis atomic research - and so do the Russians - it is one of those few indicators more was going on than has yet been admitted. But don't get the idea the Germans were close to a viable atomic science: the first diagram indicating the nature of a German atom bomb (just released by BBC) shows a flawed concept - IDENTICAL to OUR OWN first design - a "plutonium gun" that won't work. And it was not Germany that designed an atomic powered submarine during the war, although both UK and Japan did.]

(in reply to Przemcio231)

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 10:43:03 PM

el cid again

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The same goes with the 262. More FW190's would have been better to their effort. The same goes with missiles and Bismark's.

Maybe the Me (and a different, earlier jet fighter) WOULD have won the war - IF they had put them in production - instead of deciding "the war is all but won and we don't need them" - as happened. It is not just the quality of the toy that matters, it is strategic vision about what toys to buy when.

(in reply to Bradley7735)

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/28/2006 10:43:41 PM

mdiehl

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Don't bother trying to get into argument with "mdiehl" it's pointless

It's as pointless as bringing a meat fork to the gunfight at the OK corral.

The ME-262 was a marvel of innovation and a great concept. Its execution was not ready for prime time. If the Germans could have developed as much thrust from a Jumo as Allison got from one of their turbofans, thereby eliminating the need for two nacelles and vastly improving acceleration, the 262 might have been a war winner.

But as it stood the ME-262 was inferior in every useful respect to both the P-51, its erstwhile opponent, and the FE190/TA-152 (its resource rival). Judging the needs and capabilities of all the participants in the ETO, Germany would have done much better to make and use more FW190s than any ME262s.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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