Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the Germans in Belgium

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SPWaW AAR/DAR >> Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the Germans in Belgium Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the Germans in... - 3/2/2006 2:44:04 PM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
I'm making this thread to provide a lesson on the power of Haig tactics. There are a lot of folks on this forum firing flak in my direction for my choice of doctrine. After reading this lesson, there will be a lot of dedicated Haig fans making life unpleasant for the few cementhead tankers left sniveling around.

I selected a British long campaign and bought only French units including 2 platoons of riflemen, 6 special forces 'suicide squads', 3 heavy Char B tanks, 5 light H-35s stubby things, 3 rickety old Laffy armored thingys for ambulances, 4 mountain guns, 2 AT guns, ammo dump & trucks, command post, FO truck and 4 horse wagons plus 3 cargo planes were imported from the USA for dropping special forces in places they least want to be.

For support I purchased various infantry platoons including 4 riflemen, 2 engineer, and 2 AT platoons.

Game set-up:

France 1400 points
Germany 2500 + AI advantage + hard battle setting

First fight I have to do a delay action in Brussels. I will use Haig strategy to effectively delay the bad guys. I sent in 3 cargo planes with 2 squads each to behind enemy lines for recon and artillery hunting. On the way, the first plane was shot down and crashed into a village killing all on board, the next was damaged and dropped early right on top of a pack of German tanks, and the third was on target in a southern village. The squads dropped among the tanks were butchered by the tanks while the ones in the south were only showered with artillery. We achieved 'surprise' by showing off to the Germans the fearlessness of our troops.

My deployment strategy was in a Hanibal formation of a weak centre protected by only my core units with strong wings of massed infantry. I placed half of the support infantry in the north and half in the south set on AI control to swoop around to the enemy rear and crisscross across until the enemy is eliminated. Unfortunately they didn't budge an inch once the battle started and only defended themselves where they were.

Another upset was the mountain guns are not actually artillery and only fire directly. No artillery is a big chunk of Haig's system missing but the infantry alone will surely be enough.

Here is the early battle situation. The Germans have shot dead my snipers hiding among the few bushels of trees out in the field and moved against my centre. One of my core infanty platoons is beat up and retreating. Notice the Germans have mostly tanks without the vital infantry it needs so there's not much chance of them winning the fight.







_____________________________
Post #: 1
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/2/2006 2:51:57 PM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
After nailing their tanks, finally we see that their infantry have been riding on them and now have headaches. Poor planning by the enemy means an easy win coming up for us.

Here is the turn 8 situation. The tank-heavy Germans are suffering heavy losses in both armor and in the infantry jumping off the tanks. My packs of infantry on my flanks are holding with no problems at all.



_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 2
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/2/2006 2:55:38 PM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
Punishing the Teutonic tankers...



_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 3
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/2/2006 2:58:11 PM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
Fighting around our rear objective areas.



_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 4
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/2/2006 3:02:47 PM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline

Mission complete! A draw indicates a successful delay having been performed. This plus the hefty German losses as a sidedish is a miracle the people of Brussels are sure to remember for centuries to come. Our losses have been light considering the achievements of the day. Many well-deserved promotions were received by our officers.

Napoleon would be proud of these fine Frenchmen and women if they were still alive.

Lesson finished.





< Message edited by TokyoBoyTensai -- 3/2/2006 3:04:47 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 5
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/2/2006 3:47:43 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		Not to rain on your parade...well, ok maybe a little. lol

The AI generated battles are all rather easy to slap down...even with 2:1 odds and AI advantage cranked.

You should test these tactics against a live opponent and see how well you fare to get a better picture of how sound the Haig method is. A live opponent isn't going to rush tanks forward without infantry or arty support...and their method of approach would be far more tactical in nature.

There was a saying around these parts that playing the AI is like waiting at a school bus stop and punching the first 4th grader that walks off it. Not much of a fair fight.

I would be interested to see the results you obtained compared to these...and if they came out as good or better, then you could quiet any critics very quickly.

< Message edited by Orzel Bialy -- 3/2/2006 3:50:20 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 6
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/2/2006 9:22:22 PM   
Einar Fridgeirs

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline 		If the best you can manage with "Haigh tactics" is a measly draw against the AI, then you are hopeless.

If I was your commanding officer, I´d be ripping your chevrons off right about now.


(in reply to Orzel Bialy)
Post #: 7
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/3/2006 12:21:23 AM   
forgorin

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Africa
Status: offline 		Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!
Mr. SmartBoy I think you need to do some refining on your tactics there. 4:1 loss ratio is totaly unacceptable. 8 or 9:1 would have been tolerable.

_____________________________

Stress is the confusion created when ones own mind over rides the bodies desire to choke the living **** out of some asshole who really deserves it!

(in reply to Einar Fridgeirs)
Post #: 8
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/3/2006 2:36:49 AM   
JVega

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline 		Whoa. Too much hostility!

I for one consider that a succesful mission myself. He faced vastly superiour forces, both in quality, equipment and numbers, with low quality and low number of men to fight them. he had the mission to delay, and delay he bloody did.

battles like that are a favourite of mine. Epic, no-step-back, fighting to the last man for ever minute they can hold them back.


I gotta say though, there was a lack of AT or AA guns to deal with all those tanks; but I understand if it doesn't fit into your playing style. :)

(in reply to forgorin)
Post #: 9
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/3/2006 3:09:16 AM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Einar Fridgeirs

If the best you can manage with "Haigh tactics" is a measly draw against the AI, then you are hopeless. Einar, you do understand that a 'delay' means to delay the enemy right? Therefore, a draw after a delaying action is technically a victory. So be happy for my win. I did well!

If I was your commanding officer, I´d be ripping your chevrons off right about now. I don't own any gas stations so your threat does not bother me.




forgorin, I can tell from your posts that you are not one of the herd. Life has much amusement to offer one such as thee.



_____________________________


(in reply to Einar Fridgeirs)
Post #: 10
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/3/2006 3:13:29 AM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
JVega, thanks for your kind words.

_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 11
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/6/2006 6:14:11 PM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai






Am I the only one who noticed the last line on the screen? "British force morale broken!" You lost, plain and simple. Your men abandoned the field after taking abhorrent losses. It was only a draw because you held some of the VHs and inflicted a minor amount of casualties. I go through delays losing under 25 men and under 5 vehicles (AFV or APC), and with a DV, not a draw. In rel life, your commanding officers would have ordered you stripped and tied up bent over the bar at the Blue Oyster for such results. Over 500 casualties to just 170+ German casualties is ridiculous. At that rate, no nation in the world could ever hope to win out against the Germans. They'd run their populaions dry within a year.

You also did not destroy many AFVs, for all your bluster about them being worthless. I saw an overwhelming majority of AFVs still on the field in fighting condition there, with only 11 destroyed. Your special forces were wasted points; they failed to do anything whatsoever, destroying no artillery, and disrupting no advancing Germans. Your snipers were wasted points, destroyed quickly.

In the pic showing the rear objectives, which I've never even had to bother with having enemy forces at, (I don't even keep defenders there anymore) it shows the northern one being over run, your forces there, with the exception of a single calvary sec, were suppressed by the three Panzers. They were only able to destroy 1. The picture prior shows a horde of Paners after they've broken your first defensive lines, and taking the VH. In the first pic, I could see several strategic mistakes you made that would have cost you dearly if it was against a human player. Yo had a massive amount of infantry clustered together. Experience tells me I could wipe out all those with one or two air planes, bombing them straight to hell. Your entire force is situated like this. The only reason you got a draw is because of the odd way the game calulates wins. Any military commander would consider that a massive defeat.

(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 12
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/6/2006 7:14:27 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		I couldn't have said it better Azraelck, I'm curious as to the screen cap program your using cause like u I'd love to show TBT what a real delay is supposed to turn out like. He definately missed the line in the manual that states a delay is to be maintained till turn 21 and then you should be trying to pull your units toward the exit hexes, what ever happened to him inflicting as many casualties as possible, and withdrawing to atleast the second line of vic hexes?? a true delay should have u only relinquishing the objectives in a eastmost to westmost progression in the ETO anyway shouldn't it ?? Finally even if u would have had the Arrty u wanted, it couldn't have been any help because as was also pointed out, the clustering of your troops makes any call from supporting fire DANGER CLOSE, in my experiences with the Arrty fire, in the game their usually out about 3 hexes for the first couple of rounds in the barrage and get a definate advantage of correction from units in the vacinity but won't get away without signifficant casualties before the fire wrecks your stuff too. I'll say it again cause you,TBT just can't figure out.
NO single tactic, frame of mind, or arm of use has anymore merrit or function than any other if you can't even realisticly look at the field, and truthfully realize whats going wrong and what potential the units u have left have of if not fixing it atleast minimizing what u've lost and giving your remaining forces an exit to fight another day. Haig fought as if the resource of PEEONS was endless and relied too heavily on what he thought he new rather than what was really actually happening on the field. RT

(in reply to azraelck)
Post #: 13
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/6/2006 8:15:41 PM   
IBTyrone


Posts: 432
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Kentucky, USA
Status: offline 		Riun, I responded to your question about a screenshot utility in another thread. The name of the program you want is UOSU. Here's the actual thread (as opposed to a result from the search engine):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=956558


(in reply to Riun T)
Post #: 14
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/6/2006 8:17:04 PM   
IBTyrone


Posts: 432
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Kentucky, USA
Status: offline 		TokyoBoy, I'm interested to find out whether you have tested your Haig tactics in the game using a country other than a major power? How does Haig translate to Romanian troops? What about Italian? Bulgaria? I've only seen examples using major countries.

Thanks in advance.

(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 15
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 12:07:12 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		The old Ultima Online screen utility works with this? Cool. Now I have to start a game showing the folly of Haig tactics. Not that Tokyo hasn't proven it folly allready with his own screen captures.

(in reply to IBTyrone)
Post #: 16
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 11:49:32 AM   
Zardoz

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Essen (Germany)
Status: offline 		I think the question what to compare....

I set up once time a battle in which I wanted to have "Ostfront atmosphere 1944 from the German perspective". So, I took a Grenadier batalion with a AT company composed of 7,5 PaK and 7,62 "booty" PaK backed up with a PzKpfW IV H company and a StuG III battery. I clicked "hard battle" and looked what would happen. The AI attacked with a more or less tank only force. The outcome was a desaster for me, I suffered heavy losses ....

Therefore, I think that Tokioboys performance with an infantry based force was good....however, IMHO the outcome would have been better with a force backed up with armor.....

At least, I am not convinced that a draw with significantly higher losses than the AI really gives evidence that a force based on infantry and cavalry is more powerful than a combined arms force in SPWAW.....not to talk about reality

_____________________________

"No other troops in the world but German paratroops could have stood up to such an ordeal and then gone on fighting with such ferocity" — Field Marshal Alexander.

(in reply to azraelck)
Post #: 17
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 1:15:29 PM   
PimpYourAFV

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: Japan
Status: offline
IBTyrone, you are already looking at Haig tactics being used by a minor nation against a major combatant. Read my first post to see which nation I'm playing as. My morale values are 35 on average with 40 for xp. The 'weaknesses' of a minor nation are minor issues when using powerful Haig strategies.

Zardoz, Riun T, azrealic, you aren't comprehending the math behind the numbers involved here.

France (me): 1400 points with about 400 points spent on noncombat 'fluff' including command post, ammo dump, 2 ammo trucks etc which leaves only about 900 points spent on combat units.

Germany: 2500 + 2500 [hard] + (2500 x 0.5 [advance vs delay]) + (2500 x 0.5 [AI advantage]) = 7500 points with nothing spent on fluff

Then you also need to consider the differences in unit stats and weapons.

To understand how many units each side has with these numbers, look at the 1st two pictures in this thread which is the 2nd battle of my french campaign: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1077500

Riun T and azrealic, you also don't seem to understand what a 'delay mission' is. The order to perform a delay means my regiment is supposed to temporarily defend an area to slow down the enemy while other components of our army or possibly civilian refugees can retreat without being under fire. So that's what we did and we did it well. The enemy was stalled without taking all the objectives as well the Germans took moderate casualties which wears them down. A historical example of a delay is the soldiers which held off the Germans during the cowardly retreat of the British at Dunkirk during WW2.

In a delay mission, it is considered a mute point that the delaying units will fight to the death; therefore, a morale break among the defenders is inevitable as a delay is only a temporary defensive action. Note that the surviving defenders at Dunkirk also broke and ran after stalling the Germans but their mission was a success. Usually not all the soldiers involved in a delay will be killed but a good lot of them will. Reality is the killer. See my signature for more information.


_____________________________


(in reply to Zardoz)
Post #: 18
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 2:26:00 PM   
Zardoz

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Essen (Germany)
Status: offline 		Tokioboy...

ok...you were outnumbered and outgunned..

however, if you want to prove that infantry and cavalry performs better than a classic combined arms force you should replay the battle with a combined arms force and check the result...

Again, I would like to refer to my "Ostfront"-battle....even in forest, my infantry suffered heavy losses...ok, maybe I am a lousy gamer... but, indeed, my impression is that there a more effective weapons than infantry against tanks and on the other side even the machine guns of a tank take a heavy toll from infantry..

_____________________________

"No other troops in the world but German paratroops could have stood up to such an ordeal and then gone on fighting with such ferocity" — Field Marshal Alexander.

(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 19
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 2:31:15 PM   
Zardoz

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Essen (Germany)
Status: offline 		Hmmm...I understood the character of a "delay"-action in another way. I thought the task is to reduce the pace of the advance of an enemy, i. e. hold, fight...withdraw and fight against. If you fight till the bitter end there is nothing to stop the advance in the second line...therefore, I had the impression that one should perform a fighting withdraw....

_____________________________

"No other troops in the world but German paratroops could have stood up to such an ordeal and then gone on fighting with such ferocity" — Field Marshal Alexander.

(in reply to Zardoz)
Post #: 20
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 3:06:07 PM   
Korpraali V


Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai

In a delay mission, it is considered a mute point that the delaying units will fight to the death;


If that happened sometimes and if some nations performed that kind of tactic few times, it is still far from being a general rule. For example Finland could have never afforded that "Haig's tactic." It would have made no sense at all.



Ps. If you buy troops with 7500 points, losing 176 men, 1 APC and 11 AFVs won't stop you but only make you little angry.

Pps. I agree that your enemy had that huge forces that it would have been very hard task to stop it with any tactic.

_____________________________


(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 21
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/7/2006 3:25:30 PM   
IBTyrone


Posts: 432
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Kentucky, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai
IBTyrone, you are already looking at Haig tactics being used by a minor nation against a major combatant. Read my first post to see which nation I'm playing as. My morale values are 35 on average with 40 for xp. The 'weaknesses' of a minor nation are minor issues when using powerful Haig strategies.


My bad, TokyoBoy. I thought you were playing the Brits. I don't consider France a minor power, either, but I guess by SPWAW game standards, the French are a second-rate nation.

(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 22
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/8/2006 12:48:04 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Refer to my Delay at Brecey. US Army vs German; so both are "major" players. That alone disproves the already disproven theory of Haig "Tactics". With an attitude that I'll accept nothing less than total victory, and smart use of both armor and infantry, I easily stopepd the Germans cold. Two equal forces, using normal settings, with the arty set to 140. I understand the numbers quite well. With Haig Tactics, you took a draw, and only because the game's poor idea of what a draw is. For every German you killed, you lost 4 of your own. For all your stance against armor, you still did not win without utilizing armor of your own, and only destroyed 3 more tanks than what you lost. If you did not have those tanks, the ratio would have been higher, 7 or 8:1

In real life, Haig tactics border on Genocide, they are only barely viable due to automatic regeneration of infantry. Without it, you would have no core within two battles. In your battle, if against a human opponent, you would have lost, period. It's already no argument that you lost; having your force routed is automatic loss in any military book. A delay is not having your force rslaughtered like lambs and driven like cattle. A delay is a coordinated, staged withdrawl, designed to delay enemy troops until others can escape back behind you. In no army would such losses be accepted, you'd be court martialed and likely jailed for such genocidal madness.

In my worst losses in SPWAW and even other war games with the ability to run armies numbered in the several hundreds and thousands, I have never taken that many losses in a single battle. Men are not infinite, save in SPWaW; which is one of this game's weakest points.

With your tank losses, I can assume you had around a company's worth (15 or so) of tanks. That is no more than what I use to back 3 companies of infantry (1 usually special forces type units) with tank destroyers to back them up with mobile AT ability. I rarely use dedicated Infantry AT units, instead making sure my regular forces have AT weapons. I use support points to buy artillery, towed AT/AA weapons, and HMGs depending on mission. I never have losses in that amount, nor at that ratio.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1071380

(in reply to PimpYourAFV)
Post #: 23
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 3/8/2006 2:54:24 AM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Going to try this OU capture and copy paste thing to show a delay that I played as the canadians, I will also try and give the core forece screens later when I convert them to Jpegs so bare with me guys.

(in reply to azraelck)
Post #: 24
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 6/8/2006 4:14:06 AM   
forgorin

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Africa
Status: offline 		So Tokyoboytensai, where is the rest of the story. been waiting for ages now. Ithe the above people have put you off writing just ignor them. Write cus you want to. not cus they want you to. so put it up.

_____________________________

Stress is the confusion created when ones own mind over rides the bodies desire to choke the living **** out of some asshole who really deserves it!

(in reply to Riun T)
Post #: 25
RE: Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the German... - 6/8/2006 7:17:23 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I doubt that has stopped him here. It didn't everywhere else. In fact, in other threads he has stepped up. Of course, he has also mostly begun smearing instead of arguing, but that's another point for another day.

Great thread revival, BTW; lets see if the old fire fight creeps up again.

(in reply to forgorin)
Post #: 26
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SPWaW AAR/DAR >> Haig tactics 101: French troops take on the Germans in Belgium Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.484