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RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat

 
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RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat - 3/19/2006 6:27:52 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		In the case you two are discussing above the merchant TF was very large, and I bet if you watched the combat replay you would see that the merchant ships that fired were the ones that got hit the hardest.

In the case above I think the combat system worked reasonably well, at least within the realm of the possible. Where it breaks down is when you have either:

A few warships and a few transports
or
Many warships and many transports

Ron's 3 ships did close to the same damage that my 11 ships did, and the 11 ships shot at only 30% more ships than HMS Warspite did, and actaully sunk fewer of them.

I am not saying that the combat model is wrong all the time. It runs mixed forces of like types pretty well, but falls apart if there are unlike types, or if one side has very few ships and the other very many, or in various combinations of warships and merchant ships.

The examples from the Med are illustrative of a combat result that happened many times in the war, but will never happen in WitP.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 211
RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat - 3/19/2006 6:44:10 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, In those examples I see German warships sailing right into Allied convoys and then requiring over 12 hours to sink 2 or 3 ships. Really I think if those are our examples then WITP might be giving to much away. Rons 3 ship TF fought 2 or 3 rounds of combat and in each one sank at least 4 Japanese ships. It did better then every posted example of actual warship versus convoy posted so far. If you have 2 or 3 BB in the hex with enemy transport TF for 2 or 3 combat phases you will do much more damage then the 5 ships sunk in over 12 hours posted above.

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(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 212
RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat - 3/20/2006 7:58:43 PM   
VladViscious

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Hey guys,

I just looked up in the WitP Editors manual what Maneuver is all about. 3.2.1 Maneuver represents the ship's ability to avoid bombs and torpedoes, and is directly related to the length of the ship; the longer it is, the harder it is for the ship to avoid these attacks. This I beleive is why even un-escorted transports are hit so little in SC engagements. The maneuver ratings of transports are often higher than DD's. Sorry but a ship that is 30,000 tonnes and can only manage 12 knots is not a nimble little craft that dodges torpedoes and DB's well. I think this is also a check for Naval Gunfire because they are treated like BOmbs. I wonder if anyone would have time today to change the value of some Transports to a reasonable number, say 20 manuver, and run some tests.

TANSTAFFL!

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 213
RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat - 3/20/2006 8:21:46 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		We've noticed this on WPO side as well ... Tankers with maneuver ratings of 60-70 ... the gears are churning to test some changes !



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(in reply to VladViscious)
Post #: 214
RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat - 3/21/2006 7:51:55 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Hi, In those examples I see German warships sailing right into Allied convoys and then requiring over 12 hours to sink 2 or 3 ships.
-Mogami

Hello,

I am not aware of any examples of major German surface combatants sinking any Italian shipping in the Med. The examples I am refering to are the small numbers of British warships working out of Malata. Those regularly sunk a large % of the ships in Italian convoys heading to Lybia, and are documented on this thread. My point is that the WitP engine will not allow those kinds of results.

The German surface raider results are interesting, and argue that a single BB should not sink terribly many ships in a large convoy. Though I would like to study the case more, there might be an argument that the model is broken in another dimesion, because a solo BB does too much damage.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 215
RE: Analysis of Naval Gunnery Combat - 3/21/2006 2:16:37 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

quote:

Hi, In those examples I see German warships sailing right into Allied convoys and then requiring over 12 hours to sink 2 or 3 ships.
-Mogami

Hello,

I am not aware of any examples of major German surface combatants sinking any Italian shipping in the Med. The examples I am refering to are the small numbers of British warships working out of Malata. Those regularly sunk a large % of the ships in Italian convoys heading to Lybia, and are documented on this thread. My point is that the WitP engine will not allow those kinds of results.

The German surface raider results are interesting, and argue that a single BB should not sink terribly many ships in a large convoy. Though I would like to study the case more, there might be an argument that the model is broken in another dimesion, because a solo BB does too much damage.



I think the problem is that there are two entirely seperate types of actions and how to simulate them operationally with one system.

1st type of action - Standup naval fight or one side trying to force its way through an area
2nd type of action - One side is trying to escape.

I would think the dynamics - operationally- are quite different.

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(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 216
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