Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership

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Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 3:07:50 AM

KG Erwin

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I'm currently reading Dick Winters' memoirs, "Beyond Band of Brothers", and it so happens that his views on combat leadership coincide with my opinions on how these little pixallated soldiers oughta be led.

Now, there's a vast difference in the real thing vs our virtual world, but the basic principles still apply. Put simply, it's just to do everything in your power to get your men through the battle without unneccessarily endangering their lives.

I know you tire of hearing about it, but some of you are veterans, or have friends and relatives you are/were combat vets.

Yeah, it's just a game, but it represents something more, at least to me. My DARs/AARs illustrate this, but after hearing stories from guys who went through the real thing, somehow I can't take it too lightly.

Back to Mr. Winters for a moment -- he's now 88 years old, but the experiences he had as a twenty-something company commander never left him. He keeps a list of the men he trained with at Camp Toccoa, and he looks at this list each day. Many have since passed on, either during or after the war. In his wonderful book, he brings these men back to life. In his mind, they are still in his everyday thoughts.

As a gamer and amateur historian, I too think of these men, and thousands more like them. When I play SPWaW, I try to keep this in mind, and not dismiss them as toys we can randomly sacrifice at our whim. Doing this dishonors their memory. That's the way I feel about it.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 3:48:41 AM

PimpYourAFV

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In total agreement, to heartlessly send your cybersoldiers to their deaths carries a greater consequence than just a costly victory. There is the story of one German teenager who played Starcraft and enjoyed sending massed waves of marines against his enemies continually wearing them down. He usually won but at such a cost that his karma caught up to him and he was run over by a train when wandering drunk one late night. Another player again in Germany with a similar playing style was chewed up by dobermans after a long LAN gaming session with his buddies.

The most astonishing case was a South African who also enjoyed massed wave attacks at great cost during various war games online was actually targeted by another online player with the bucks to back up his high morals. The vengeful cyberangel had the South African's home address attained through an email hack and then hired a paramilitary group to attack him during his sleep. The 'victim' apparently was both a light sleeper and a champion pistol & shotgun competitive shooter so two of the hitmen were killed while the other two were ordered at gunpoint to strip and perform a Starsky & Hutch dragon ceremony. The video of the dragon ceremony was posted on a peer-to-peer file sharing site. That said, it is unlikely anyone on this site has the skills to take down a paramilitary squad in his sleep so it's better we all just keep our casualties to a minimum.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 4:46:27 AM

azraelck

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I eat paramilitary squads and crap out Sherman tanks. I am the Goddamned Batman!

One of my main goals is to reduce the number of my casualties to a minimum. That's why I have a tendancy towards massive amounts of artillery and a more defensive-minded approach towards achieving the objectives. Especially in defensive positions; I can achieve a decent kill to loss ratio; my best was only 13 dead to nearly the entire enemy force downed.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 6:25:04 AM

KG Erwin

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Dick Winters earned a Distinguished Service Cross for his actions as a company commander on D-Day. I think his opinions deserve some respect.

Too bad some of my fellow forumers have no clue about the concepts of respect and honor.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 7:48:17 AM

Orzel Bialy

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Glenn, you had to have known you would get some sort of "response" from our friend of the forum.

Do yourself a favor and place him on IGGY...that way you don't see his reply just his name.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 7:25:04 PM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy

Glenn, you had to have known you would get some sort of "response" from our friend of the forum.

Do yourself a favor and place him on IGGY...that way you don't see his reply just his name.

Yes, Orzel, I did that already.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/10/2006 11:56:15 PM

azraelck

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My post was in direct response to TBT's. This is why I don't block view of someone's posts; you can't always see whats going on. My disrespect wasn't aimed at Winters but at TBT. If you don't like it, feel free to block me as well.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 12:11:14 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

My post was in direct response to TBT's. This is why I don't block view of someone's posts; you can't always see whats going on. My disrespect wasn't aimed at Winters but at TBT. If you don't like it, feel free to block me as well.

No, my friend. I wouldn't do that. In my years of being a member of this forum, I've only invoked the "ignore" button once.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 12:22:43 AM

IBTyrone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
No, my friend. I wouldn't do that. In my years of being a member of this forum, I've only invoked the "ignore" button once.

I know you weren't trying to be funny, Glenn, but I got a chuckle out of that one.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 1:32:32 AM

Svennemir

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quote:

Too bad some of my fellow forumers have no clue about the concepts of respect and honor.

New here? Welcome to the Internet.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 4:15:15 AM

PimpYourAFV

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Wow. I responded by agreeing with the thread starter and backed him up with some interesting stories I read in a newspaper article and still all the usual miserable hatemongers are here grunting, farting and trading despair with each other. This seems to be the pattern whenever I dare to post something interesting that jolts the trolls from their stupor of boredom.

Go ahead and do the girly ignoring thing if that helps your fragile minds.

Oh! we must keep the forum boring and dull or Erwin and Ken will get so angry.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 5:12:32 AM

BulletMagnet

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Really ? Must you continue to emulate your hero Haig by ALSO being a jackass?

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 5:15:23 AM

azraelck

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At least he doesn't run and hide like a craven coward; like his hero was noted as doing. Of course, there's a big difference between people mocking him for making up a story to help further his self-proclaimed martyr status and the stench and filth of trenches and barbed wire overflowing with rotting carcasses and bullets filling the air so much that they blot out the sun.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 5:38:16 AM

Orzel Bialy

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Gentlemen,

Whatever he may be posting please don't allow the topic to be altered to center on him...it's what he seemingly craves. So let's all do each other a favor and don't allow the focus of the thread to revolve around him and his antics... but rather let us stay on the topic of the thread.

If you can't resist sharing your views (both pro and con) on any of his statements then start another thread or send him PM's instead.

Now back to Dick Winters...

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 5:49:47 AM

BulletMagnet

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 5:59:53 AM

Orzel Bialy

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 6:01:14 AM

KG Erwin

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Let me quote this one passage from the book:

"I truthfully never wavered as to whether or not I would succeed in combat. I was far more concerned for the safety of the men entrusted to my command. Any success I had as a battlefield commander was based on character, detailed study, and taking care of those troopers."

I heard this man's voice, speaking as an old soldier in the BoB Documentary, and I can hear him saying this. Who wouldn't follow a man like this into battle? You can ridicule me as a fanboy, but I think it's awe-inspiring.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 6:13:12 AM

azraelck

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I seriously doubt anyone; whether or not they have any inkling of military strategy or history; would say that they would not follow a commander who took those words to heart.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 6:24:38 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

I seriously doubt anyone; whether or not they have any inkling of military strategy or history; would say that they would not follow a commander who took those words to heart.

That's what was so great about Damian Lewis' portrayal of Winters in BoB -- that's the way he really was. He was the quintessential good soldier, and got the job done. These are the guys that routinely get overlooked, as they are not colorful characters. There were thousands more, just like him, who quietly did what they had to do in Europe and the Pacific.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 7:00:39 AM

azraelck

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The vast majority were ignored. Unless you were a major commander, or did something so extraordinary that they have no choice; the media isn't going to care.

The sad thing is; I have never seen Band of Brothers. I need to just buy the damn thing on DVD one day. At least I know it's name though. Most movies and shows I see, I can't remember what they're called.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 7:40:04 AM

PimpYourAFV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

The sad thing is; I have never seen Band of Brothers. I need to just buy the damn thing on DVD one day. At least I know it's name though. Most movies and shows I see, I can't remember what they're called.

I just saw another sad thing called 'Band of Hatemongers'. And it was on this very thread! The psychology of the entire regular crowd in this forum is typically seen in various places like sports teams, workplaces and especially in grade school where the one guy who doesn't fit in cause he's either inferior in some way or radically superior in another is ganged up on by all the others in a tornado of hate and abuse or is simply shunned completely. A fluctuating trend of abuse followed by shunning and back to abuse again is most common. The crowd hanging out here everyday has followed this pattern over and over dozens of times with exceedingly diligent by-the-book adherance. Without a doubt, my pointing out of this fact will be denied, ignored and possibly even spark another hate storm. I feel like I am poking a stick into a cage full of maddened, retarded apes with even a completely innocent post I make. A mind really is a terrible thing to waste.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 10:29:58 AM

Zardoz

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What do you think.... can a commander take to much care for the life of his soldiers?

I have Monty in my mind and Operation Varsity....was it a mistake not to try the Rhine crossing immediately after the Wehrmacht had evacuated the Wesel bridgehead and resulted the drop in losses which could have been avoided by NOT performing a parachute drop on the FLAK?

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/11/2006 10:16:58 PM

m10bob

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Omar Bradley was also a "soldiers' soldier", a leader who would not ask his men to do what he was not willing to do himself.
Irresponsible people with asinine ideas regarding the misuse of human flesh is not exclusive to this forum, but are encountered in real life as well.
No soldier, armed, with a rifle, will suffer a disregard of his fellow soldiers for long.
As Major Winters "promoted" a poor 2LT to get rid of him, he also saved that mans life....

It is one thing for a common grunt to risk his life in a worthwhile cause.
It is another to know you are being foolishly risked and/or sacrificed for a short term gain.

When Richard Winters recognized the importance of hitting an enemy company before it had a chance to consolidate their positions, he personally charged across the field and to the top of that dyke,*hoping* his men were nearly there..Finding himself still alone, he went to work taking out his nearest potential threats first. He disregarded danger to his own safety in order to accomplish the mission he was asking his men to perform. He inspired *and led* from the front.
This is a concept of combat leadership which has been taught since at least Caesers' days..
Maj. Winters existed in a thousand names, and a thousand faces in that war, most unrecognized. This is the reason rank insignia is what is saluted by other soldiers, not just the man, ( and that was another lesson Major Winters tried to teach Cpt Sobel, (reportedly a typical "gung-ho" officer with no common sense and a reckless disregard for human beings.)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/11/2006 10:32:00 PM >

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/12/2006 1:14:59 AM

IBTyrone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

The vast majority were ignored. Unless you were a major commander, or did something so extraordinary that they have no choice; the media isn't going to care.

The sad thing is; I have never seen Band of Brothers. I need to just buy the damn thing on DVD one day. At least I know it's name though. Most movies and shows I see, I can't remember what they're called.

It makes a great Christmas present. That's how I picked up my copy. I asked my wife to sit and watch the series with me and although she has no interest in military matters, even she enjoyed it.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/12/2006 3:37:06 AM

azraelck

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I'm not waiting that long. I'm waiting until Thursday; which is payday; to see what kind of change I have to spare.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/12/2006 3:50:21 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

I'm not waiting that long. I'm waiting until Thursday; which is payday; to see what kind of change I have to spare.

You can't go wrong with adding BoB to your collection. However, I'd recommend that you watch the documentary on disc six ("We Stand Alone Together"), before you get into the series itself. Much of the interview footage was done while Ambrose was researching the book, and sadly, some of those vets have since passed away.

While I'm at it, I also recommend getting both Ambrose's and Winters' books. Once you see the series, you'll want to know more about these men.

PS see this website: http://www.majordickwinters.com/index.html

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/12/2006 4:00:11 AM >

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/12/2006 5:14:26 AM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

My post was in direct response to TBT's. This is why I don't block view of someone's posts; you can't always see whats going on. My disrespect wasn't aimed at Winters but at TBT. If you don't like it, feel free to block me as well.

No, my friend. I wouldn't do that. In my years of being a member of this forum, I've only invoked the "ignore" button once.

Hmmmm?
Well Glenn, why don't you like asparagus????

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/12/2006 6:19:04 PM

IBTyrone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

I'm not waiting that long. I'm waiting until Thursday; which is payday; to see what kind of change I have to spare.

It'll be money well spent. I don't watch movies repeatedly as a rule. Once is usually enough for 99% of the movies I watch. I've watched BoB through three times and enjoyed it each time. You pick up on many things missed the first few times through. And the hour long blocks are easy to get through in one sitting without too much interruption.

And KG is right--take time to watch the interviews. The first time through, I rented the set a DVD at a time from Blockbuster over several months as I could afford it and had time. The Blockbuster DVD had the interviews at the beginning of each episode which set the tone for the episode. The set I purchased in the store did not have those interviews at the beginning which I felt subtracted from the overall experience. They are on the separate DVD that KG mentioned. If you watch those interviews before you watch the series, you begin to match real life guys with their characters.

After you finish watching the series, you might want to give the SP:WAW BoB scenarios a try.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/13/2006 12:56:43 AM

azraelck

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I definitely will get the set then, if bills allow. I'll also be sure to watch the interviews first as well. Thanks for the reviews of the set.

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RE: Dick Winters and His Views on Leadership - 4/13/2006 1:11:41 AM

KG Erwin

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Yes, I agree with IBTyrone on trying out the scenarios, and playing the "Screaming Eagles" MegaCampaign.

I didn't intend this to become an overview of "Band of Brothers", but there are few war epics that have gained so much notoriety in print.

The MegaCampaign brings home the point that Easy Company was just a small part of the whole division, so the fame these particular men have achieved is somewhat embarrassing to them. They are just a microcosm of an elite American outfit.

However, I gotta get back to the "We Stand Alone Together" documentary -- some of the men interviewed, such as Forrest Guth, are not represented in the movie at all. Mark Bando, an airborne historian, has correctly pointed out that a comprehensive overview of who WAS portrayed, and a comparison between the actors and the real men, would've helped tremendously.

A few are obvious -- Richard Winters, Bill Guarnere, "Babe" Heffron, C. Carwood Lipton, "Popeye" Winn and "Shifty" Powers.

Of these, I thought that Damian Lewis as Winters and Frank J. Hughes as Guarnere did particularly outstanding jobs, but there are so many wonderful portrayals, and so many characters, that it IS hard to keep up with who's who. THIS is just one reason why the series can reveal new facets and deepen understanding with repeated viewings.

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