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Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 5:34:52 AM   
alfrake

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		My Japanese bombardment force was 8 hexes from Palmyra when I issued orders. They move 32 so should go 6 hexes a face for 12 hexes a turn. Orders bombard, Patrol/do not retire, explicitly ordered to full speed, not mission speed, aggressive fleet commander. They move 6 hexes and don't bombard the island. There are zero allied attack planes in the area and the KB simultaneously moves in to 2 hexes north of Palmyra. The horde of allied shipping in the harbor is escaping because the damn surface force didn't go in all the way.

What did I do wrong? How do I fix it?
Post #: 1
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 6:37:32 AM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

Patrol/do not retire, explicitly ordered to full speed, not mission speed,
There are the key mistakes right there.

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Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army


(in reply to alfrake)
Post #: 2
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 7:26:32 AM   
alfrake

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

Patrol/do not retire, explicitly ordered to full speed, not mission speed,
There are the key mistakes right there.


Then how else do I get it to bombard during the day starting from 8 hexes away?

(in reply to rogueusmc)
Post #: 3
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 2:33:04 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		When it comes to a BB TF, keep the speed at mission. The TF will move at that speed and then automatically go to full speed to conduct the BB mission. Usually, it will move at least one hex away afterwards rather than remain in the hex. You can have it set to partol/do not retire. The TF will switch over to SC after it completes the BB mission. I have always seen a BB TF intially conduct its mission at night. Then it may stay there and do so during the day.
Be advised that you want to turn off the "escorts" bombarding if the base has a high number of coastal guns.

(in reply to alfrake)
Post #: 4
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 4:54:28 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Manipulating TF movement is a bitch. All sorts of things can happen to cause TFs to reach the approach hex and then they simply do nothing turn after turn as if they were "stuck". Sometimes one has to change the speed just to unstick" them (I just had to do this with a Minewarfare" TF, it stayed at the approach hex for three stinking days until I changed the speed from Mission to Full speed. It did something as the mine field was laid next turn.

Changing speeds has some weird effects too. If you go from one speed to a faster, the TF will retire to the farthest approach hex to the target before the run in, often taking a few steps back in order to go ahead at the faster speed. Another issue is that the run in distance seems to overide everything else. Take opening turns where there are RN warships in Hong Kong. Set Manila as destination and set TF to full speed, the TF only goes as far as the approach distance for the run in next turn...it does not move the distance it could that turn. Set it to mission and the TF goes further along. Really weird the way it works.

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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 5
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 5:34:11 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

Patrol/do not retire, explicitly ordered to full speed, not mission speed,
There are the key mistakes right there.



I've always used full speed rather than rely on mission speed. I don't go to full speed until the turn the bombardment is to be conducted. That way the ships will retire as far as the remaining ops points will allow.

However, patrol/do not retire is going to keep the force in the target hex you selected. That's fine if they wipe out the airfield, not so good if you don't. I never use it for bombardment.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to rogueusmc)
Post #: 6
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 5:48:50 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

Patrol/do not retire, explicitly ordered to full speed, not mission speed,
There are the key mistakes right there.


Then how else do I get it to bombard during the day starting from 8 hexes away?


How to ensure surface forces reach a target hex during the day (and not during the night) has been especially important for those of us who have been playing WPO. This is because in WPO, the BBs start with night experience in the 20s range, versus DDs being in the 40s. So you don't want your BBs fighting the enemy DDs at night. Because of the game system's hardcoded turn sequence, placing the night phase before the day phase, it is necessary to use the patrol order, otherwise you will not stay in the hex and you will be unlikely to fight in the hex (at least in the day time). And you need to start at a distance that will preclude you from arriving at night. For a speed 4 TF this means starting from ideally 4, but possibly 3 hexes away. Note that because you are using patrol orders, you will not get a bonus move and so you will have to start closer. It is possible to use full speed movement, but again you must start from far enough away that you do not arrive at night. I would start from as far away as possible, at a distance still allowing me to reach the hex. I will also say that I practiced doing this many times with task forces of varying speeds before trying in a PBEM, you don't get "replays" in PBEM, so you have to get it right. And I still follow the rule that "You fight like you train". So I recommend pratice first.

But similar to the idea in WITP that carrier TFs must use patrol orders to fight in a particular locale, surface forces must also use patrol orders when desiring to fight during the day, otherwise you are just taking a crap-shot.



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(in reply to alfrake)
Post #: 7
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 6:30:36 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

Patrol/do not retire, explicitly ordered to full speed, not mission speed,
There are the key mistakes right there.


Then how else do I get it to bombard during the day starting from 8 hexes away?


ALfrake, look here!

The answer is you may not start at 8 hexes away. In my experience the bombardment mission is one that should not be micromanaged - do so at your own peril. The reason is two fold. First it is hard to predict what will happen if you try to control the exact movement because the AI has a preplanned way of approaching a target that it is trying to carry out. Second, the AI does a surprisingly good job of managing the TF on these missions.

I move my TF to about 12 hexes away - typically outside bomber range, then set the target, leave the speed set to mission. The TF then may move anywere from 6-10 hexes that day and close the distance the next day. The AI will do a good job, given your TFs maximum speed of optimizing the run in to the target AND the sprint away after the bombardment is over. A big mistake is trying to sprint to the target from too far away because if you don't get far enough back out to see your TF will be vulnerable to LBA counter attack.

You can keep a bombardment TF at the target with patrol/don't retire on. However, note that when your BBs bombard the target on one turn, they expend all their large caliber ammo, down to a pre-set limit (3 I think). This is so that they have ammo to defend themselves should a surface action insue. Your commanders won't violate that limit. So I rarely have BBs stay at a target more than one round to bombard.

When I want a bombardment TF to linger in an area to support an invasion I actually will sometimes use two TFs. ONe packed with BBs and CAs to provide a heavy punch knocking out coastal guns and a second TF packed with CL and DD that fires during the actual landing. CLs and DDs can fire shore bombardment many turns in a row because of their plentiful supply of ammo. Also, both do a surprisingly good job at shore bombardement if you have 20+ in a TF.

_____________________________


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(in reply to alfrake)
Post #: 8
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/13/2006 6:56:48 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

First it is hard to predict what will happen if you try to control the exact movement because the AI has a preplanned way of approaching a target that it is trying to carry out. Second, the AI does a surprisingly good job of managing the TF on these missions.


This is true for night bombardments using the retire option. But for day bombardments, especially if you want to arrive only in the day and strictly avoid arriving at night, "micromanagement" is required, patrol orders are indicated, etc. Day only arrivals are probably the norm for WPO players, due to the relative lack of airpower and the desire to avoid night actions. However, for WITP players, night arrivals are the norm and leveraging the AI support for night approaches makes complete sense. But, the question I was addressing, was how to do day bombardments.



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New Game Project Lead

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 9
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/19/2006 5:01:53 AM   
alfrake

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice so far, although it seems the outcome I wanted is not possible or not likely.

Let me go back to what I was actually trying to accomplish and see if you all can help ....

I believe lots of allied ships are sitting in Palmyra unloading/loading. Thus I want to kill them all. I am sending the KB by to kill stuff that is at sea and to provide cover. I have zero fear of allied airpower in this limited bombardment operation (please accept for the sake of discussion).

I believe Catalinas are operating out of Palmyra. No hard evidence of this, but it seems logical given how many the USA has. I believe Catalinas have enough range to spot my forces heading in the turn before they are in easy range. 6 hexes away with my surface ships makes an easy run in for a night attack, but the Catalinas should see me first. If they see me on that turn my opponent will order the ships all to scatter and I'll get nothing. The only way I see to prevent that is to run in from farther away, not giving the player a chance to react.

Is my thinking horribly wrong? What should I be thinking? How do I make it happen better?


Actual results:
Maybe 40 ships within 6 hexes of Palmyra. KB killed some transports on the ocean and the CVE Long Island (it had been chasing a sub, I knew where it was). Surface ships shot up a half dozen in the harbor on the second day, most of allied transports scatter and escape. (idiotic air targetting wasted entire KB day 2 airstrike, both morning and afternoon, on 1 AP and 2 APDs in same TF).

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 10
RE: Bombardment TF movement - 4/19/2006 9:02:05 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		If you were trying to sink ships, why was it a Bombardment TF? It should have been a Surface Combat TF.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to alfrake)
Post #: 11
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