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Drop Tanks. - 4/14/2006 10:38:16 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		While the P-51 had good range, it was made famous by using the larger Drop tanks available.

In the Game, can you extend range by adding drop tanks or is the extra range added into the endurance already??



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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/14/2006 1:13:45 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

While the P-51 had good range, it was made famous by using the larger Drop tanks available.

In the Game, can you extend range by adding drop tanks or is the extra range added into the endurance already??


Yes and no. Drop tanks have existed since stock - and not been used. I have implemented them for RHS - but it is mostly chrome. Drop tanks do not really define range - a single data field does that. Code interprets variations of that for transfer range, normal range and extended range.

What drop tanks DO do is limit what you can carry bomb wise to extended range: they are part of the "bomb load" as it were. So in that sense, if a plane has drop tanks, it is penalized in a way that a plane without them is not - it cannot carry as many bombs because some of them are drop tanks! But since this is true and fair, I have no problem with it - as a way of distinguishing planes. And I have used actual drop tank weights whereever possible - meaning I had to add some.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/14/2006 2:15:51 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Thank You.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/14/2006 2:34:48 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		I don't know if they come into the game at a later date as part of the hard coding or not. I have been reading articles about P-40's in the CBI using 147 Imp Gal drop tanks to extend their range, and about F4F's using drop tanks on Guadalcanal, seeing pictures of F6Fs and F4Us with any combination, including 5 150 gal tanks, and of course, the Mustang using twin drop tanks in addition to the (in)famous 84 gal fuselage tank. I have no earthly idea why they are not included in the loadouts of the aircraft. [Perhaps they could be keyed into the mission selection - bombs for ground attack, drop tanks for escort/LRCAP.] Even the Hurricane was plumbed for drop tanks by 1942, if what I have read is correct. I mean, if the old girl can lug 2 500LB bombs, why not a drop tank and 2 250LB bombs?

I have modded (is that a word?) the addition of drop tanks to virtually every single, and some twin, engined thing, and the range increases substantially, obviously, depending on the capacity of the AC and the size tank available.

BY THE WAY - why are we using liter tanks for the Brits/Aussies etc, when the data I have read uses Imperial Gallons?

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/14/2006 4:01:20 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Drop tanks....A real sore point with me...Months ago, I gave info to another researcher and he agreed that certain planes needed drop tanks. (I will not mention his name as he has moved from that direct arena to another capacity benefitting WITP.)
Literally *every* P 47 which arrived in Australia was given custom-made drop tanks, built at an Australian factory, ordered by Gen Kenney himself!!
His intent was to provide an escort for his bombers with a range long enough to stay with the bombers. (His priority was never to utilize the P 47's as "fighter-bombers"..)
An in-game range of 4 or 5 is totally inadaquate, and not historical by any means for this theatre.
I believe Sid in past suggested dropping the Grumman FM2 as it is (performance-wise) the same as the F4F4..I agree..In its' place, might be the P 47 in its' historical Pacific theatre configuration..
The research I and (that other fella) did on this subject was extensive with multiple points of referance..(A search in this forum can find that info.)
Even the "game" characteristics of the P 47N is disgraceful.

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/6.html

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_kearby.html

http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0887valor_print.html

This next deals with a pilots report on his use of drop tanks, in detail. (In this case, a P 38 pilot.)

http://www.winkton.net/pages/Clay%20Tice%20jr.htm



"As the 348th settled into temporary quarters, Kenney went to work on increasing the range of the potent new fighter. He set his engineering staff to work designing a suitable external drop tank. Once the design was finalized, Kenney contracted with Ford of Australia to manufacture the tanks. By middle August, the first tanks arrived and were fitted to the Thunderbolts. The tanks were big and ugly, but they held 200 gallons of fuel, which nearly doubled the P-47's combat radius. Now able to range out further than the P-40E, the Jug could now reach out to the Japanese where previously no single engine fighter could go."

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/14/2006 5:05:11 PM >

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 12:49:09 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

I don't know if they come into the game at a later date as part of the hard coding or not. I have been reading articles about P-40's in the CBI using 147 Imp Gal drop tanks to extend their range, and about F4F's using drop tanks on Guadalcanal, seeing pictures of F6Fs and F4Us with any combination, including 5 150 gal tanks, and of course, the Mustang using twin drop tanks in addition to the (in)famous 84 gal fuselage tank. I have no earthly idea why they are not included in the loadouts of the aircraft. [Perhaps they could be keyed into the mission selection - bombs for ground attack, drop tanks for escort/LRCAP.] Even the Hurricane was plumbed for drop tanks by 1942, if what I have read is correct. I mean, if the old girl can lug 2 500LB bombs, why not a drop tank and 2 250LB bombs?

I have modded (is that a word?) the addition of drop tanks to virtually every single, and some twin, engined thing, and the range increases substantially, obviously, depending on the capacity of the AC and the size tank available.

BY THE WAY - why are we using liter tanks for the Brits/Aussies etc, when the data I have read uses Imperial Gallons?


I was told the drop tanks don't actually work. Hard to know since I cannot see the code! I note they do impact loads, but neither extended range nor normal range, as far as I can see. Nor should they - that is - YOU do the range value and enter it. Otherwise how would the system work? You must be entering some kind of range in the field. Anyway, I went back and looked - they were there in stock - just not used. I think it was a plan never implemented. As in they never wrote the code for the devices.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 12:54:55 AM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		There is no drop tank data for any P-47 in the game. Give me the data - and where you found it so it can be verified (if I can verify it so can anyone else who checks on us). I will put it in. What is the range?

I have an endurance of 300 for P-47C at 250 mph,
432 for P-47D at 250 mph, and 500 for P-47 at 275mph.
Please verify this data is correct. And that it is correct for what drop tank configuration.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 1:07:03 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

There is no drop tank data for any P-47 in the game. Give me the data - and where you found it so it can be verified (if I can verify it so can anyone else who checks on us). I will put it in. What is the range?

I have an endurance of 300 for P-47C at 250 mph,
432 for P-47D at 250 mph, and 500 for P-47 at 275mph.
Please verify this data is correct. And that it is correct for what drop tank configuration.


Sid, I appreciate your interest.. At present I can only refer you to the sites I referenced, as these are the words of the "horses-mouth", (as it were)..
For any future critics, I might suggest they too see those sites, which include the size of the tanks, the manufacturer of the tanks, the contractor of the tanks, the date of inception AND delivery of the tanks, and the comparison of the new range with that of the P 40E, (a known quantum.)
I understand some folks do not wish to lend credence to anything on the web, but one must at some point consider the source.
If being on paper and held together by binding were the main criterium, MAD magazine might be proferred as "reference material".

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 2:06:15 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		What, I was using the MAD article on PUTTON as my basis for a WW2 Europe game

It shouldn't be hard to set up a test with a standard P-47 and a P-47 droptank version and see what happens? Has the A6M2 have their range in the game calculated using its drop tank??

Maybe external weapons need another place , say a centreline slot and "underwings" slot to allow a centreline droptank and underwing bombs/rockets.

Another feature missing from the game, and again its hard to program, Is that many US Bomber groups based out of Northern Queensland, refuelled at Pt Moresby (or similar) and flew on to Rabaul/Lae etc. This meant the forward base only needed a long runway & refuelling support rather than the mechanics to properly run the Groups. I know the B-26's used this a lot.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 4/15/2006 2:08:16 AM >

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 2:31:25 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Dumb though, but then most are!

Given the game doesnt "use" Drop tanks to extend range, wouldnt they actually limit range by using up the load capability and therefore limit the aircraft to "normal" range??

(I shouldnt think while hanging out the washing)

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 6:49:03 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

It shouldn't be hard to set up a test with a standard P-47 and a P-47 droptank version and see what happens? Has the A6M2 have their range in the game calculated using its drop tank??


The exact A6M2 drop tank is in stock - and I have been using it for about three months. It makes no difference whatever to the range of the Zero. I assume the code thinks a drop tank is required to reach extended range - which would be correct.


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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 6:51:04 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Maybe external weapons need another place , say a centreline slot and "underwings" slot to allow a centreline droptank and underwing bombs/rockets.


This IS allowed. Zero uses underbelly. Most planes use wing tanks.
Some planes use both. If "used" is the right word - you can mount them anyway. But the code is just electrons: if I tell the code a zero can reach a range WITHOUT a drop tank, it believes me! EVERY version of WITP so far has done just that too - RHS is the first plane set actually to put the drop tank (which was there all along) on the plane.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 6:52:18 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Given the game doesnt "use" Drop tanks to extend range, wouldnt they actually limit range by using up the load capability and therefore limit the aircraft to "normal" range??


No. They are assumed to be present when flying at extended range, and cut into the load permitted at extended range. They have zero impact at normal range.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 7:12:23 AM   
Herrbear


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From: Glendora, CA
Status: offline 		I understand that the P-47N model was capable of escorting the B-29 from Saipan to Japan. That is why I always have felt there should have been an escort range for fighters that would incorporate the effect of drop tanks and no bomb load.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 1:19:10 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

I understand that the P-47N model was capable of escorting the B-29 from Saipan to Japan. That is why I always have felt there should have been an escort range for fighters that would incorporate the effect of drop tanks and no bomb load.


Hello Herrbear...Please see my initial comments in this thread. I have already pointed to a site showing EVERY P47 (staging thru Australia)was equipped with drop tanks as standard equipment..
In past, I felt some of the modders' intent was to pursue historical correctness, and I was very supportive of this.
I am no longer certain.....
................................................................

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/15/2006 1:20:16 PM >

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 1:44:21 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

I understand that the P-47N model was capable of escorting the B-29 from Saipan to Japan. That is why I always have felt there should have been an escort range for fighters that would incorporate the effect of drop tanks and no bomb load.


That is what the drop tanks do. IF you carry them, they are at the expense of load when flying to extended range. SO you either get no bombs - or much reduced bombs - depending on if the drop tanks represent the total load - or not. In the case of the Zero, it carries to 66 kg bombs in addition to its centerline drop tank. Later in the war, it can substitute a bomb for the drop tank - a respectable 250kg bomb. BUT IF it does, it must not be flying to extended range. That is the impact of the drop tank - it prevents you taking bombs to extended range by eating into your load.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 4/15/2006 1:45:53 PM >

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 4:44:57 PM   
Sardaukar


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From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		So, if I get this right.... Drop tanks per se have no effect. But they'd prevent bombs to be carried to extended ranges. Well, I think that putting drop tanks to historical escort fighters and adjusting the extended range would then work just fine. At least for me.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/15/2006 5:21:58 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

So, if I get this right.... Drop tanks per se have no effect. But they'd prevent bombs to be carried to extended ranges. Well, I think that putting drop tanks to historical escort fighters and adjusting the extended range would then work just fine. At least for me.


Me too..I have bombers, but without long range escort, my bomber crews' morale goes to the toilet!
Like Gen Kenney, I want to be able to put single engine fighters over enemy bases, along with my bombers..
"Fighter-bombers", Gen Kenney did not need, and neither do I......

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/16/2006 12:51:58 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

So, if I get this right.... Drop tanks per se have no effect. But they'd prevent bombs to be carried to extended ranges. Well, I think that putting drop tanks to historical escort fighters and adjusting the extended range would then work just fine. At least for me.


Nice to hear. The first version of RHS (CVO v 1.05) is available for testing. If you want to test with a working set of files, let me know (anyone). There are things left to do - but the planes have been solid for some time and unless we find a problem - or an addition - they won't change. ONE CHANGE I will make is adding drop tanks to a P-47 - if someone tells me what they are size wise - and the performance data with them.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/16/2006 4:23:01 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Good to hear, El Cid !!

I would like to give it a try. Send to sardaukar67(at)yahoo.com. I'm very curious how the air combat will be in your mod.




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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 2:11:13 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
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Status: offline 		As they used to shout in Viet Nam

Incoming!

Note the economics is not yet reworked entirely.

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 5:10:01 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

I don't know if they come into the game at a later date as part of the hard coding or not. I have been reading articles about P-40's in the CBI using 147 Imp Gal drop tanks to extend their range, and about F4F's using drop tanks on Guadalcanal, seeing pictures of F6Fs and F4Us with any combination, including 5 150 gal tanks, and of course, the Mustang using twin drop tanks in addition to the (in)famous 84 gal fuselage tank. I have no earthly idea why they are not included in the loadouts of the aircraft. [Perhaps they could be keyed into the mission selection - bombs for ground attack, drop tanks for escort/LRCAP.] Even the Hurricane was plumbed for drop tanks by 1942, if what I have read is correct. I mean, if the old girl can lug 2 500LB bombs, why not a drop tank and 2 250LB bombs?

I have modded (is that a word?) the addition of drop tanks to virtually every single, and some twin, engined thing, and the range increases substantially, obviously, depending on the capacity of the AC and the size tank available.

BY THE WAY - why are we using liter tanks for the Brits/Aussies etc, when the data I have read uses Imperial Gallons?


I was told the drop tanks don't actually work. Hard to know since I cannot see the code! I note they do impact loads, but neither extended range nor normal range, as far as I can see. Nor should they - that is - YOU do the range value and enter it. Otherwise how would the system work? You must be entering some kind of range in the field. Anyway, I went back and looked - they were there in stock - just not used. I think it was a plan never implemented. As in they never wrote the code for the devices.


Nope. I made no changes to the endurance figures. Just either installed drop tanks, or swapped bombs on fighters for a equivalent load value drop tank - except for the F4F-3. A 75 gal drop tank on a F4F-4 added one full hex to the normal and extended range. Adding two 110 gal drop tanks to P-38, which they were easily capable of handling, increased range to 1200 miles (20 hex radius) which they also could easily handle. As far as the game mechanics go, that is the only think I played with, and got increase range figures. Not incredibly, except adding 2 110's to the P-51. Oy...

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 6:19:00 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick
[image][/image]
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

I don't know if they come into the game at a later date as part of the hard coding or not. I have been reading articles about P-40's in the CBI using 147 Imp Gal drop tanks to extend their range, and about F4F's using drop tanks on Guadalcanal, seeing pictures of F6Fs and F4Us with any combination, including 5 150 gal tanks, and of course, the Mustang using twin drop tanks in addition to the (in)famous 84 gal fuselage tank. I have no earthly idea why they are not included in the loadouts of the aircraft. [Perhaps they could be keyed into the mission selection - bombs for ground attack, drop tanks for escort/LRCAP.] Even the Hurricane was plumbed for drop tanks by 1942, if what I have read is correct. I mean, if the old girl can lug 2 500LB bombs, why not a drop tank and 2 250LB bombs?

I have modded (is that a word?) the addition of drop tanks to virtually every single, and some twin, engined thing, and the range increases substantially, obviously, depending on the capacity of the AC and the size tank available.

BY THE WAY - why are we using liter tanks for the Brits/Aussies etc, when the data I have read uses Imperial Gallons?


I was told the drop tanks don't actually work. Hard to know since I cannot see the code! I note they do impact loads, but neither extended range nor normal range, as far as I can see. Nor should they - that is - YOU do the range value and enter it. Otherwise how would the system work? You must be entering some kind of range in the field. Anyway, I went back and looked - they were there in stock - just not used. I think it was a plan never implemented. As in they never wrote the code for the devices.


Nope. I made no changes to the endurance figures. Just either installed drop tanks, or swapped bombs on fighters for a equivalent load value drop tank - except for the F4F-3. A 75 gal drop tank on a F4F-4 added one full hex to the normal and extended range. Adding two 110 gal drop tanks to P-38, which they were easily capable of handling, increased range to 1200 miles (20 hex radius) which they also could easily handle. As far as the game mechanics go, that is the only think I played with, and got increase range figures. Not incredibly, except adding 2 110's to the P-51. Oy...


Well, looks like you have good figures there, RevRick..From the sites I linked above, Gen Kenney had his new P 47's married to a custom-made 200 gal drop tank,specifically made to fit the P47's..If you have time, can you see what that does for the P 47 range?..According to the vets who actually flew that rig, it *doubled* the P 47's extended range...

[image][/image]

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/17/2006 6:25:22 AM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 9:37:40 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		So to clarify RevRick's post,

If you add Drop Tanks, range is automatically increased!!

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RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 12:01:32 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Well, looks like you have good figures there, RevRick..From the sites I linked above, Gen Kenney had his new P 47's married to a custom-made 200 gal drop tank,specifically made to fit the P47's..If you have time, can you see what that does for the P 47 range?..According to the vets who actually flew that rig, it *doubled* the P 47's extended range...


First, your language implies ONE drop tank per plane - is that what you mean?

Second, this is backwards. You need to TELL US the range with the tanks, not ask. We have no P-47s to test!


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Post #: 25
RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 12:06:15 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

So to clarify RevRick's post,

If you add Drop Tanks, range is automatically increased!!


If so, it is an error.

WITP believes the lies (or truth) we feed it.

ALL scenarios until now flew the Zero WITH a drop tank - but WITHOUT fitting it! And most other planes as well. The ranges ARE drop tank ranges - but you don't have to carry them. Or buy them. I said - I will add them. It DOES NOT CHANGE THE RANGE A WHIT - unless we had the range wrong to begin with. ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range. Now if you believe a plane (say P-47) is given the wrong range, that is a different subject. We list ONLY the ferry range of an aircraft in the database (technically it is called transfer range in WITP). The game calculates normal range as 30% of that, and extended range as 40% - even if that is not the real case. We have no control over any value but transfer range. The drop tank feature is mainly chrome - it just takes up load - and in order to add it - I had to add load capacity to many planes. But it does not have some wierd code saying "if using drop tanks, increase transfer range" - the data is whatever it is.

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Post #: 26
RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 1:20:20 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying but we have, apparantly, a different claim.

WITP just may have this ability, if its proven great, if not, things have to be adjusted.

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Post #: 27
RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 3:35:13 PM   
Iron Duke


Posts: 529
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Hi,

Did a quick test with adding drop tanks

stock scen.3 Coral sea saved to slot 198

added drop tanks as follows

a/c 1 Kittyhawk I added 1 x 50 gal drop tank - did not change max load value

ranges before -
max=15/900 [hex/miles]
extended= 5/300
normal = 3/225
endurance=200

ranges after -
max=19/1140
extended=6/380
normal = 3/225
endurance=250
note: endurance increased by 50 [ same as size of drop tank]

a/c 2. F4F-3 Wildcat added 110 gal drop tank - changed max load value to 750 [drop tank device load value]

ranges before-
max=14/840
extended=4/280
normal=3/210
endurance=330

ranges after -
max=18/1080
extended=6/360
normal=4/270
endurance=440
note: endurance increased by 110 [again by size of drop tank]

They appear to work? wether the new ranges are correct needs varifying .

cheers

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Post #: 28
RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 3:54:18 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

So to clarify RevRick's post,

If you add Drop Tanks, range is automatically increased!!


If so, it is an error.

WITP believes the lies (or truth) we feed it.

ALL scenarios until now flew the Zero WITH a drop tank - but WITHOUT fitting it! And most other planes as well. The ranges ARE drop tank ranges - but you don't have to carry them. Or buy them. I said - I will add them. It DOES NOT CHANGE THE RANGE A WHIT - unless we had the range wrong to begin with. ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range. Now if you believe a plane (say P-47) is given the wrong range, that is a different subject. We list ONLY the ferry range of an aircraft in the database (technically it is called transfer range in WITP). The game calculates normal range as 30% of that, and extended range as 40% - even if that is not the real case. We have no control over any value but transfer range. The drop tank feature is mainly chrome - it just takes up load - and in order to add it - I had to add load capacity to many planes. But it does not have some wierd code saying "if using drop tanks, increase transfer range" - the data is whatever it is.


Sid, I FINALLY(!) understand what you are saying!..Since WITP is already "believing" the extended ranges to "assume" tanks aboard, it IS apparent the ranges were incorrect for the uniform "Pacific P47's" completely!!(While the ext. range may have been o.k. for the ETO, the historical fact of the "Gen Kenney" modified planes was never taken into acct.
While the ETO planes were originally fitted with 2x165 gal. P 38 tanks, (as seen in the pic on the first thread I linked):

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/6.html

the wording of the Gen Kenney Australian planes seems to indicate a single 200 gal tank, (just like the one seen on the 60's era P47 models!!!!)
With no access to the codes, one must understand the original designers felt no need to differentiate accurately for the compensation of FB's carrying tanks OR bombs, and could afford to simulate this very abstractly, (albeit effectively.)
Unfortunately, most of the fans of the game are true grognards, (by design or accident) who seek historic measure to some extent greater than originally given.
IMHO, as great as Gen Kenney's apparent need for a long-range *single-engined escort fighter* was, the provision was never given to use the plane he actually used for this purpose, (the P47.)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/17/2006 3:55:49 PM >

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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 29
RE: Drop Tanks. - 4/17/2006 3:58:27 PM   
timtom


Posts: 2358
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range.



Maybe that's a good thing? I seem to recall Lemurs once stating that he'd cut the range of a number of fighterbombers in CHS because he felt that it would otherwise overstate their ability to lug heavy bombloads out to max range.

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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 30
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