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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922 - 1930 >> Scenario Design >> conjectural ships

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conjectural ships - 11/25/2005 4:48:07 PM

FDRLincoln

Posts: 744
Joined: 11/22/2004
From: Lawrence, KS
Status: offline

There is a lot of room in the 1926-1930 scenario for conjectural ships, either real-life never-wheres or those of the player's own design. Assuming that the Washington Treaty never occured, it seems to me that there would have been another big naval arms race leading up to war in '26 per the scenario.

The Super Dreadnought scenario explores this with the conjectural Kii, G3, and South Dakota 18inch gun classes, but there is so much more we can do! For example, barring the Washington Treaty, what kind of large cruiser would the naval nations have developed during this period? Without treaty limitations, there would be no reason for the 8inch-10,000 ton heavy cruiser to appear as it did. What kind of cruiser would the nations have built to start replacing their old ACRs? This seems a good place to start thinking of conjectural ships.

Anyhow, I am going to start developing my own scenario, called "Orange Dawn," which will include logical progressions and developments that we could have/would have seen during a naval buildup during this period. My first proposal is an 18-inch gun version of the US BC, counterpart to the South Dakota 18 inch ship. I am calling this the President class, with two ships, President and Congress, after the old wooden frigates. This conjectural BC takes the standard Lexington class, replaces the 16 inch guns with 18 inch guns, increases the belt armor slightly (from 180 to 210), and reduces the speed from 35 to 30 knots, reflecting the larger weight of the guns and armor. This ship is a step in the direction of the fast battleship.

Post #: 1

RE: conjectural ships - 11/25/2005 5:11:30 PM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

combinedfleet.com has a very nice section on such ideas, called Admiral Furashita's Fleet

*click here!*

lot's of interesting ships there

(in reply to FDRLincoln)

Post #: 2

RE: conjectural ships - 11/25/2005 6:51:13 PM

watchtower

Posts: 867
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Republic of Kilburn. London UK
Status: offline

nice link. I love the thought of this beast roaming the seas - look at that flight deck!! Imagine one with 3 ship hulls - like a floating island!!
http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/nibai_f.htm

(in reply to String)

Post #: 3

RE: conjectural ships - 11/25/2005 10:23:29 PM

Alikchi2

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline

The Nibai is very cool. I've been meaning to add her to WitP actually but I've been dithering on how exactly to sim her. Lots of hidden advantages to that hull..

Here's another good one for never-were ships:

http://wolfsshipyard.mystarship.com/Misc/WolfsDen/various.html

I especially like the refitted Dreadnaughts for the Royal Navy.

_____________________________

(in reply to watchtower)

Post #: 4

RE: conjectural ships - 11/25/2005 10:31:14 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

The Nibai makes my Super-Yamato look sensible...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Alikchi2)

Post #: 5

RE: conjectural ships - 5/4/2006 3:16:40 PM

Comander Rodney RAN

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline

HI all this my frist time on this borad and i been thinking on on and AC or CA for the RAN as replacement for HMAS Australia or add on to the RAN in the mid 1920s im useing srpiner as as do not have the game yet take a look and tell me what you think of her .

Kent Ballarat class, uk Aust Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
14,832 t light; 15,897 t standard; 17,144 t normal; 18,142 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688.92 ft / 688.92 ft x 75.00 ft x 29.55 ft (normal load)
209.98 m / 209.98 m x 22.86 m x 9.01 m

Armament:
12 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x4 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (4x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
20 - 1.58" / 40.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.97lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
25 - 0.80" / 20.3 mm guns in single mounts, 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,082 lbs / 2,305 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 447.80 ft / 136.49 m 10.18 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm

- Armour deck: 2.66" / 68 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 107,259 shp / 80,015 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,245 tons

Complement:
748 - 973

Cost:
�4.260 million / $17.042 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 635 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 3,342 tons, 19.5 %
- Belts: 949 tons, 5.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 763 tons, 4.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,559 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,638 tons, 21.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,216 tons, 42.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,312 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,025 lbs / 7,723 Kg = 43.7 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Stern: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 19.21 ft / 5.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.4 %
Waterplane Area: 31,686 Square feet or 2,944 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 698 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

< Message edited by Comander Rodney RAN -- 5/4/2006 4:17:05 PM >

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 6

RE: conjectural ships - 5/4/2006 3:25:18 PM

Comander Rodney RAN

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline

or this one more armored less maine guns .

Kent Ballarat class, uk Aust Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
15,054 t light; 15,957 t standard; 17,208 t normal; 18,208 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688.92 ft / 688.92 ft x 75.00 ft x 29.66 ft (normal load)
209.98 m / 209.98 m x 22.86 m x 9.04 m

Armament:
9 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x3 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (4x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
20 - 1.58" / 40.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.97lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
25 - 0.80" / 20.3 mm guns in single mounts, 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,914 lbs / 1,776 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.50" / 140 mm 447.80 ft / 136.49 m 10.18 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm

- Armour deck: 2.66" / 68 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 107,518 shp / 80,208 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,251 tons

Complement:
750 - 976

Cost:
�3.950 million / $15.802 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 489 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 3,857 tons, 22.4 %
- Belts: 1,044 tons, 6.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,182 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,559 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,647 tons, 21.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,060 tons, 41.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,154 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,677 lbs / 8,472 Kg = 48.0 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Stern: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 19.21 ft / 5.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.1 %
Waterplane Area: 31,686 Square feet or 2,944 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 682 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

< Message edited by Comander Rodney RAN -- 5/4/2006 4:14:54 PM >

(in reply to Comander Rodney RAN)

Post #: 7

RE: conjectural ships - 5/5/2006 7:36:32 AM

Rysyonok

Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

Triple main caliber, double secondary caliber... sounds a bit overloaded. Especially since turrets are unarmored.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Cheap coastal defenders like Dutch BBs circa 1914? Or high-speed interceptors like IJN's Nagaras?

(in reply to Comander Rodney RAN)

Post #: 8

RE: conjectural ships - 5/5/2006 4:34:56 PM

Comander Rodney RAN

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline

well look at the CAs that where built for the RN & RAN in the 20s in the OTL they where tin cans with 8 inc guns and came in at 10,000 tons standed as we have seen Rysyonok theres a need to portect trade as theres no limit on size for CAs or ACs i think closer to 15,000 tons standed puls to fill the gap between BBs / BCs and CLs and what do you mean unarmord one has face 6incs side 4incs and 4 incs barbette /hoists and the othere has 8x8x8 on the mains and i think as theres no WT in this ATL the RN would keep the old 9.20"gun or updated one for CAs or ACs there would be planing to build .

(in reply to Rysyonok)

Post #: 9

RE: conjectural ships - 5/5/2006 4:48:00 PM

Comander Rodney RAN

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline

But hears what she look if she had 8inc guns x4 and better armored

Kent Ballarat class, uk Aust Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
15,182 t light; 15,897 t standard; 17,144 t normal; 18,142 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688.92 ft / 688.92 ft x 75.00 ft x 29.55 ft (normal load)
209.98 m / 209.98 m x 22.86 m x 9.01 m

Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (4x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
25 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1922 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,548 lbs / 1,156 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.90" / 226 mm 447.80 ft / 136.49 m 10.39 ft / 3.17 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.90" / 226 mm 8.90" / 226 mm 8.90" / 226 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 107,259 shp / 80,015 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,245 tons

Complement:
748 - 973

Cost:
�3.568 million / $14.272 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 318 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 4,765 tons, 27.8 %
- Belts: 1,724 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,211 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,759 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,638 tons, 21.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,461 tons, 37.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,962 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,231 lbs / 9,177 Kg = 79.0 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Stern: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 19.21 ft / 5.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.4 %
Waterplane Area: 31,686 Square feet or 2,944 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 625 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

(in reply to Comander Rodney RAN)

Post #: 10

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922 - 1930 >> Scenario Design >> conjectural ships

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