Who moves first?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Who moves first?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Who moves first?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Who moves first? - 5/18/2006 10:32:40 AM

NemRod

Posts: 124
Joined: 12/24/2004
Status: offline

Has Japan any kind of advantage during the land movement, like moving first and creating ZOC who will then disturb allied movements ?
My oponent and me have seen some strange things concerning movements (AAR Nemrod Vs Jim, great reading

), and are looking for an explanation.It looks like the AAR BUGWAR 2006! ( previously lunacy or shrewdness?) shows something similar.
Thanks for any help.

Post #: 1

RE: Who moves first? - 5/18/2006 10:59:54 AM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

The way I think it works is simple. Japanese units move first then allied units move. The problem is zocs are getting created immediately thus giving Japan a huge advantage in the land war.

For example assume the allies have blocking units in 5 of the 6 surrounding hexes of a Japanese unit that has an attacking allied army in its hex as well. The allies are in the process of entering the sixth hex to complete the isolation of the unit cutting off its retreat path.

Assuming the Japanese unit and the last surrounding allied unit are both set to enter the empty sixth hex on the same turn, Japan would escape the trap as its unit moves first.

Now flip positions and have an allied unit trying to escape the same setup. It would be trapped because Japan moves first and zocs that last hex thus trapping the allied unit in place since units cannot move from zoc to zoc.

An easy test would be to place a Japanese unit and an allied unit adjacent on a rail line. Give them orders to march into each others hex and my guess is on the turn the units are set to move, only the Japanese unit will move. It will create a zoc thus preventing the allied unit from moving even though they both, theoretically, should have switched places.

Jim

_____________________________

(in reply to NemRod)

Post #: 2

RE: Who moves first? - 5/18/2006 11:25:19 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

If this ZoC thing is a big deal, then maybe there should be something in the game to shift the initiative? Maybe allies get it halfway through the historic end of the game? Sure, the allies, or US rather, got initiative earlier then that, but when you can't assume that the IJ player would do so badly, then a halfway point would be ideal. That might involve re-coding of course.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 3

RE: Who moves first? - 5/18/2006 12:34:20 PM

NemRod

Posts: 124
Joined: 12/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

An easy test would be to place a Japanese unit and an allied unit adjacent on a rail line. Give them orders to march into each others hex and my guess is on the turn the units are set to move, only the Japanese unit will move. It will create a zoc thus preventing the allied unit from moving even though they both, theoretically, should have switched places.

Jim

The Manchuria 45 scenario has several situations of this kind. I ran a quick test, head to head, on 4 different places. the first turn all the units, axis or allies "advanced" ( without actually moving from their hex) 45 miles. The second turn, in 3 out of 4 cases, the Russians reached their dest Hex first and the Jap could only in one. Of course there are several parametres to take into account ,like fatigue, supplies,river crossings ( there were several shock attacks), etc...but, at first sight, this doesn't seem to confirm your theory.I have no time right now to have a closer look at all this, but if you can ,Jim, it would be interesting you run more tests with this scenario or another.
I'll send you my turn as soon as I come back

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 4

RE: Who moves first? - 5/18/2006 7:58:00 PM

BLUESBOB

Posts: 219
Joined: 8/27/2005
From: Fullerton, Ca.
Status: offline

Can I hijack this thread for uno momento?

Regarding who moves first, since the Japanese player starts the game, hence moving first, in every game turn that follows the Japanese are moving first. That includes all ship, plane, and LCU movement. I do not think this has ever caused a problem...however....

I first wrote about this in the AAR section. I believe that Japanese first moves present a problem in naval combat. When two fleets engage each other and the window pops up so I can watch the engagement, a strange thing always occurs. One side always seems to get get the element of surprise. But, what I see happening is the Japanese ALWAYS get the element of surprise.

I had a TF move toward Amboina from Darwin. It consisted of CA's, CL's, and DD's. The Jap player had a TF there consisting of DD's, AP's, and AK's. My TF moved up and was NEVER spotted. The Japs never saw us coming. I received spotting reports on him everday that we moved up. We knew exactly what was there. And we had SCR radar on several ships. But, when we slipped in at night to engage, guess who got the element of surprise? Long Lancers in the water!!

Big B set up an ambush of a Jap TF at Midway. He knew that they were coming in to bombard with heavies. As luck would have it, he had BB's galore waiting there for him. Again, Big B had spotting reports, he had radar. With no intelligence, the Japs never should have known what hit them. But, once again, guess who got the element of surprise? Long Lancers in the water!!!

These are not the only instances. I have witnessed several others. PT's vs. DD's...DD's vs. DD's...it's always the same. Surprise is a great element to have in a game. It allows you to set up those ambushes which happened frequently in the war. However, I think there is a problem with it, and that problem lies within Japanese first moves. I have a feeling that first move overrides an Allied surprise. In other words, the Allies might achieve the element of surprise, but the first move protocol overrides the suprise and the Japanese player makes the first move. If this is so, it's a shame...because the fun of getting one over on your opponent is lost.

Does anyone know anything about surprise and how it works?

(in reply to NemRod)

Post #: 5

RE: Who moves first? - 5/18/2006 10:14:54 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

I have seen Allied surface forces get surprise. IIRC it is based on the crew and commander's skill levels, modified some by presence/absence of radar and a huge luck factor. The Japanese start out with much higher night experience levels so there is a tendency for them to get suprise during night actions early in the game. But I don't think any player knows for certain, the mechanics for surprise are *rimshot* a surprise.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to BLUESBOB)

Post #: 6

RE: Who moves first? - 5/19/2006 8:13:39 AM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I have seen Allied surface forces get surprise. IIRC it is based on the crew and commander's skill levels, modified some by presence/absence of radar and a huge luck factor. The Japanese start out with much higher night experience levels so there is a tendency for them to get suprise during night actions early in the game. But I don't think any player knows for certain, the mechanics for surprise are *rimshot* a surprise.

Fair enough, but what if the surprise rolls are sequenced? I mean if Japan always rolls first then a surprise result for them would then negate any possible allied roll.

I wish we knew what the determining factors for surprise rolls were (if there are more than one roll), or if just one random roll is made and no determining factors are used other than a single simplistic die roll. I mean it could simply be a 33% Japanese surprise, 33% no surprise, 33% allied surprise roll and nothing at all effects the roll.

Nemrod's test seems to indicate the turn�s execution is not sequenced as I thought it was, but it would be nice if someone with good editor skills could throw together a test scenario so we could get some comprehensive results.

I'd like to see a series of units lined up with identical fatigue/morale/disruption levels and have them march towards each other.

Then flip it so a 100/100/100 unit marches towards a 0/0/0, a 90/90/90 unit marches towards a 10/10/10, a 80/80/80 unit marches towards a 20/20/20, etc. to see if there is a dependable pattern that develops to tell us if in fact these are the deciding factors on who moves first.

I personally hope that these factors do effect move sequencing, but I suspect it is far more arbitrary than that.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 5/19/2006 8:32:42 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 7

RE: Who moves first? - 5/19/2006 8:47:32 AM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

I don't think having the Japanese enter their orders prior to the Allies really makes any difference. The orders of both sides are executed simultaneously.

As for surprise rolls, I can't say for certain but based on my own experiences as a programmer I suspect that it is one single routine determining if surprise is obtained and if so who gets it. Not two competing routines. I.E., its one die roll modified by both sides stats, not two die rolls. But as I said, that's just a guess.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 8

RE: Who moves first? - 5/19/2006 9:24:10 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLUESBOB

Can I hijack this thread for uno momento?

Regarding who moves first, since the Japanese player starts the game, hence moving first, in every game turn that follows the Japanese are moving first. That includes all ship, plane, and LCU movement. I do not think this has ever caused a problem...however....

I first wrote about this in the AAR section. I believe that Japanese first moves present a problem in naval combat. When two fleets engage each other and the window pops up so I can watch the engagement, a strange thing always occurs. One side always seems to get get the element of surprise. But, what I see happening is the Japanese ALWAYS get the element of surprise.

I had a TF move toward Amboina from Darwin. It consisted of CA's, CL's, and DD's. The Jap player had a TF there consisting of DD's, AP's, and AK's. My TF moved up and was NEVER spotted. The Japs never saw us coming. I received spotting reports on him everday that we moved up. We knew exactly what was there. And we had SCR radar on several ships. But, when we slipped in at night to engage, guess who got the element of surprise? Long Lancers in the water!!

Big B set up an ambush of a Jap TF at Midway. He knew that they were coming in to bombard with heavies. As luck would have it, he had BB's galore waiting there for him. Again, Big B had spotting reports, he had radar. With no intelligence, the Japs never should have known what hit them. But, once again, guess who got the element of surprise? Long Lancers in the water!!!

These are not the only instances. I have witnessed several others. PT's vs. DD's...DD's vs. DD's...it's always the same. Surprise is a great element to have in a game. It allows you to set up those ambushes which happened frequently in the war. However, I think there is a problem with it, and that problem lies within Japanese first moves. I have a feeling that first move overrides an Allied surprise. In other words, the Allies might achieve the element of surprise, but the first move protocol overrides the suprise and the Japanese player makes the first move. If this is so, it's a shame...because the fun of getting one over on your opponent is lost.

Does anyone know anything about surprise and how it works?

It might also be that especially for the night attacks (you didn't specify the time of the latter battle) that the significant night advantage for the IJN is overriding what you guys are doing. IOW the night advantage may be larger than the movement advantage. I am curious also as to how you guys know for certain that the IJN isn't aware of your TF's presence. There are ways I know, but I doubt they're foolprooof. The IJN usually has better experience for capital ships in the daytime too, especially early in the war too, but you would think that if the IJN TF has been tracked for a turn or two, that should shut off the surprise element, even if they do have more experience, though given how the darkness of night can change things drastically, maybe even with working radar, I wouldn't be so certain in that instance.

(in reply to BLUESBOB)

Post #: 9

RE: Who moves first? - 5/19/2006 6:26:52 PM

BLUESBOB

Posts: 219
Joined: 8/27/2005
From: Fullerton, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I wish we knew what the determining factors for surprise rolls were (if there are more than one roll), or if just one random roll is made and no determining factors are used other than a single simplistic die roll. I mean it could simply be a 33% Japanese surprise, 33% no surprise, 33% allied surprise roll and nothing at all effects the roll.

Jim

It could be like weather, where each unit in a "stack" gets a die roll...and all it takes is one to roll surprise for the entire stack to recieve it. Looking back on what we've said so far, I'm beginning to believe that the Japanese rolls for surprise first...again that first move priority...and ONLY if they don't receive the surprise initiative does the Allied player get a chance at a roll. Once again play balance is in Japanese hands.

< Message edited by BLUESBOB -- 5/19/2006 6:27:09 PM >

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 10