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Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan

 
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Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/23/2006 10:30:43 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		Test Scenario:
WinXP Pro SP2 US
1.8 updated from 1.3 comprehensive via 1.6 with all steps in between.
Allies vs. Computer, very hard, Game Date May 11, 1944
Daily turns
NO MODS
Sound and Video subdirs renamed (disabled).
Alternate Font


Mid March 44 Allied forces (1. 2. 3. 4. Marines) attacked Saipan, and after three or four days took the base.
Since then - it is May 11 now - the Allies EACH DAY shock attack the Japanese forces.
It doesn't matter if I order Deliberate Attack, Bombardement Attack or even Defensive Stance (and I set the "ALL" parameter, of course).
The program always initiates a shock attack during the execution phase.
I do understand this is by design if the base in question is an atoll. But Saipan is not an atoll, is it?
Anybody with a good explanation?

Please note: my question is NOT how to conquer Saipan or how difficult this will be. My question is only why I - the player - cannot control the level of attack.
Saves (daily back to April 11) available upon request.
Cheers
Rainer
Post #: 1
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/23/2006 10:50:41 PM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		No, Saipan is not an atoll. Further, since you control the base, even on an atoll the auto-shock attack would not come into play.

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Post #: 2
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/23/2006 11:02:43 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Test Scenario:
WinXP Pro SP2 US
1.8 updated from 1.3 comprehensive via 1.6 with all steps in between.
Allies vs. Computer, very hard, Game Date May 11, 1944
Daily turns
NO MODS
Sound and Video subdirs renamed (disabled).
Alternate Font


Mid March 44 Allied forces (1. 2. 3. 4. Marines) attacked Saipan, and after three or four days took the base.
Since then - it is May 11 now - the Allies EACH DAY shock attack the Japanese forces.
It doesn't matter if I order Deliberate Attack, Bombardement Attack or even Defensive Stance (and I set the "ALL" parameter, of course).
The program always initiates a shock attack during the execution phase.
I do understand this is by design if the base in question is an atoll. But Saipan is not an atoll, is it?
Anybody with a good explanation?

Please note: my question is NOT how to conquer Saipan or how difficult this will be. My question is only why I - the player - cannot control the level of attack.
Saves (daily back to April 11) available upon request.
Cheers
Rainer


Send save to wigwamitus@gmail.com



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Post #: 3
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/23/2006 11:09:38 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		Done.
Thanks for attention.
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 4
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/24/2006 4:25:46 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Done.
Thanks for attention.
Cheers
Rainer


Rainer, I still haven't received your save, could you resend ?

wigwamitus@gmail.com


thanks.

Joe W.


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Post #: 5
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/24/2006 2:43:00 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		Done.
Good luck
Rainer

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 6
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/24/2006 3:52:04 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Still haven't received your save. Can you try sending from a different email ?

wigwamitus@gmail.com



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Post #: 7
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/24/2006 5:15:18 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		I have only that email account.
However, Don Bowen asked me to send the save to him, which I did.
Rainer

< Message edited by Rainer -- 4/24/2006 5:16:37 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/24/2006 10:12:17 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Turns out this is not a bug but an intentionally coded feature.

The game mechanics will make some attack and defend decisions on it’s own. These are based on the relative odds between “attacker” and “defender” in a given hex. The odds are based on the available assault value of all of the attacker and defender units in the hex, adjusted by the unit(s) condition and leadership.

If the attacker has sufficient odds, an attack will be ordered. Depending on the odds, the attack might be Bombardment, Deliberate, or Shock. I do not specifically know why this is done but it may have something to do with automatically handling cut-off enemy units.

In your game there are a bunch (make that uppercase BUNCH) of allied units on Saipan and the odds are well over 100 to 1. This is enough to trigger the automatic shock attack. Attack/Defend settings of the units will simply be ignored.

Attacks will continue until the odds reduce or the cut-off enemy units are destroyed. I guess the best thing to do is sit back and enjoy it



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Post #: 9
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/24/2006 10:56:23 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		It sounds like a "clean up" feature. It also sounds like Rainer was looking to do some training with his his squardons on the cut off enemy troops.

USMC General : Charge! Kill 'em all!
USAF General : No wait! We want to bomb 'em slowly!
USMC General : Charge! Ack! I can't help myself! Must kill, mame, destroy! CHARGE!

-F-

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Post #: 10
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 12:48:51 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Turns out this is not a bug but an intentionally coded feature.

The game mechanics will make some attack and defend decisions on it’s own. These are based on the relative odds between “attacker” and “defender” in a given hex. The odds are based on the available assault value of all of the attacker and defender units in the hex, adjusted by the unit(s) condition and leadership.

If the attacker has sufficient odds, an attack will be ordered. Depending on the odds, the attack might be Bombardment, Deliberate, or Shock. I do not specifically know why this is done but it may have something to do with automatically handling cut-off enemy units.

In your game there are a bunch (make that uppercase BUNCH) of allied units on Saipan and the odds are well over 100 to 1. This is enough to trigger the automatic shock attack. Attack/Defend settings of the units will simply be ignored.

Attacks will continue until the odds reduce or the cut-off enemy units are destroyed. I guess the best thing to do is sit back and enjoy it





Don, is there any chance that you might be able to put this "Feature" on a future "look at" list? I suspect that a number of us would like this as a selectable "option" rather than a hard-wired given, particularly for PBEM.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 11
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 1:10:19 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		First of all, thanks for looking into this.
And you're right. At times I had no less than 8 (eight!) divisions at Saipan.
However, this feature is one I have difficulties to "like".
The result of this - probably well intentioned - feature is that I had to withdraw the Marines (all four divisions) because they were depleted to less than 50% of their assault values. They suffered 250 to 1000 (give and take because FOW) casualties PER DAY due to this "feature". This also makes it impossible to stage troops in contested areas which really have been transported to the combat area to be deployed later on elsewhere (Guam and Tinian in this case).
The "good" news: the Marines are now in Hawaii to recuperate (parents, watch your girls!).
The bad news: the US Army divisions have to take the - remaining - brunt, and will probably not be prepared very well to go and take Guam and Tinian.

Conclusion: This - again, well intentioned - feature deprives the Supreme Commander (that is me, the player) from exercising a "brilliant" strategy. Not something I like.
Afterthougt: Probably related to some AI programming and needs. But THAT's a whole new topic and a "can of worms" we're going to open later.

As far as I'm concerned: thanks to everybody who's taken care.
These procedures are now closed.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 12
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 1:14:09 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		You're right with the quoted Generals. The 4th Marines are commanded by HMS.
Nope, that's not "His Majesty Ship".
It's "Howling Mad Smith" (aka Holland M. Smith).
But THAT you knew, didn't ya? ;)
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 13
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 3:01:28 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Don, is there any chance that you might be able to put this "Feature" on a future "look at" list? I suspect that a number of us would like this as a selectable "option" rather than a hard-wired given, particularly for PBEM.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi



The best way to get this (and other) requests into consideration is to post them in the WITP Wish List thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=687130

Joe Wilkerson is in the process of assembling wishes and putting together a list (and checking it twice??).


(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 14
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 5:09:26 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Turns out this is not a bug but an intentionally coded feature.

The game mechanics will make some attack and defend decisions on it’s own. These are based on the relative odds between “attacker” and “defender” in a given hex. The odds are based on the available assault value of all of the attacker and defender units in the hex, adjusted by the unit(s) condition and leadership.

If the attacker has sufficient odds, an attack will be ordered. Depending on the odds, the attack might be Bombardment, Deliberate, or Shock. I do not specifically know why this is done but it may have something to do with automatically handling cut-off enemy units.

You're just making that up right?!?

First I've heard of it! And there aren't many players around with more turns under their belt than me. Or many with a better won-loss record.

So, I request that you confirm what you said here.

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Post #: 15
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 5:13:42 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford
First I've heard of it! And there aren't many players around with more turns under their belt than me. Or many with a better won-loss record.

So, I request that you confirm what you said here.

Geez, I have seen this so often, I just accept it as being part of the game and have always figured everybody else did the same ... certainly no one I have ever played against has remarked that AI-subordinate-ordered attacks of various kinds were anything but de rigeur.

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 4/25/2006 5:15:55 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 6:47:31 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

You're just making that up right?!?

First I've heard of it! And there aren't many players around with more turns under their belt than me. Or many with a better won-loss record.

So, I request that you confirm what you said here.


If you are asking me to confirm it - I do. That's the way I read the code. The reason for it is my best guess.



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Post #: 17
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 7:52:43 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
If you are asking me to confirm it - I do. That's the way I read the code. The reason for it is my best guess.

So, you're not really sure.

Could you have been looking at the code that controls the AI? Or computer controlled HQ's?

Can anyone else confirm the seemingly preposterous claim that human controlled LCU's launched their own unordered attacks (except in the known SHOCK combat exceptions)?


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Post #: 18
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 8:36:57 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		To me is sounds like he is sure that the human controlled LCUs are doing what they feel like once odds are beyond a certain point. What is his guess is why the code was written that way.

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Post #: 19
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 4/25/2006 8:49:22 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

To me is sounds like he is sure that the human controlled LCUs are doing what they feel like once odds are beyond a certain point. What is his guess is why the code was written that way.

Well, that's your interpretation. I still say he is probably wrong about this.

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Post #: 20
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 5/11/2006 2:28:58 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		If "Constant Shock Attacks" are initiated by the program, and you think the attacking forces are NOT overwhelming, then check this:

If Combat Engineering Units (enginers with Assault Value > 0) are present, then these units will NOT be reset by issuing the order to "Bombardement" or "Deliberate Attack". Pressing the "ALL" button will set all combat units accordingly, EXCEPT combat engineer units. Set these units manually to "Defensive Stence" and all be fine.
No unwanted shock attacks anymore (until you bring in those other 4 divisions. Then (what's the ratio? Don't know) the program will take over and initiate those shock attacks again.

Stumbled across this when I attacked Guam with four divisions and one combat engineers unit (the 34st). Knowing that the Japanese had one division plus assorted other units at the place I was surprised to see the "Constant Shock Attack" syndrom again.
After close examination I found what I desribed above.
Hope this will be of value to somebody (sure was for me and the well being of my combat guys out there at Guam).
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 21
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 5/24/2006 10:41:00 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, strange I've never seen this. I have a 1.801 game going with mixed hexes and no unordered attacks are occuring.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/24/2006 10:51:39 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 5/25/2006 1:17:56 AM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, strange I've never seen this. I have a 1.801 game going with mixed hexes and no unordered attacks are occuring.

I've seen this a dozens of times, but I've only seen one deliberate attack and no shock attacks. Most of the time, the attacks are bombardments (which still ticks me off no end). "Conserve your ammunition til it counts Soldier, or I'll shoot you myself!"

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Post #: 23
RE: Constant SHOCK attacks at Saipan - 5/25/2006 2:56:37 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		The Shock Attacks are confirmed by Mod Don Bowen (he says it's an intentioned feature).
The Shock Attacks with a Combat Engineers Unit present occurred recently but I don't think I have the save anymore.
It's not a show stopper at all, just something to be checked.
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 24
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