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RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

 
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RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 2:22:44 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Another solution would be to move the resources Japan needs to easily defended areas in the coastal areas which then pretty much reduces the need for japan to kil l China to have any chance of surviving.
If inner China is a supply nightmare for both sides, we might get the stalemate that we are looking for.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 61
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 2:28:50 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

-one or two lake hexes (between Wuhan and Changsha, North of Nanchang, East of Shanghai, North of Nanjing)

Nils, who helped me coming with the map I posted in this thread, asked me to add lake hexsides too to these regions, but I had no precise ideas of where to add the.
Could you be precise and tell me where you would add them ? Depending on the forum members comments and on playtest, I may add them too.

quote:

-A river from Tianjin to Nanjing (imperial north-South Channel)

Isn't it already partly there ? The river going north from Nanking, passing west of Suchow.

quote:

-some more mountain hexes in middle eastern China

In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be mountains ? I was also asked by Nils to add more bad terrain around there. I only added the 2 mountain hexes northeast of Wuhan.

Also, Wogun, do you think that Wuhan should be on the north bank of the river, as Mzlin said ?

quote:

-some more desert hexes in north China

In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be desert ?
The terrain in northern China is entirely desert or mountain in WiF FE, so I'd happilly make the MWiF map more like the WiF FE map, if real geography suggest it too.

Thanks.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 62
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 2:32:40 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Another solution would be to move the resources Japan needs to easily defended areas in the coastal areas which then pretty much reduces the need for japan to kil l China to have any chance of surviving.
If inner China is a supply nightmare for both sides, we might get the stalemate that we are looking for.

I agree to do that, and I would do immediately if most people agreed too.

I want to move back the Nanning resource to its initial MWiF position, deleting Liuchow and puting Kweiling to replace it, and move the Chansa resource 2 hexes southwards in the middle of the woods.

Would it be good ?

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 63
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 4:49:50 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		quote:

-one or two lake hexes (between Wuhan and Changsha, North of Nanchang, East of Shanghai, North of Nanjing)


Nils, who helped me coming with the map I posted in this thread, asked me to add lake hexsides too to these regions, but I had no precise ideas of where to add the.
Could you be precise and tell me where you would add them ? Depending on the forum members comments and on playtest, I may add them too.

Ok: for the lakes I'll give our WW2 transcription (modern pinyin, if anybody wants to check it out on modern maps)

NC
1-2 Hexes West of Sining here could be Lake Chinghai-hu (Qinghai hu, hu = Lake)

CC
1. This is tricky: The hex West of Shanghai could be Lake Taihu. Problem is the Railway and the Yangtze (Yangzi) in the same hex. IRL there's only bout 50 km between Yangtze and the lake, with the railway line in between them two.
2.The railwayhex southeast of Hsuchow (Suchow) could be Lake Hungtse-hu (Hongze hu).
3.The hex northwest of Nanchang could be Poyang-hu (Poyang hu).
Perhaps move Wuhan to the southern part of the hex northwest of now-Wuhan, and make the ex-Wuhan hex Liangtse-hu (Liangzi hu).
4. Perhaps move Changsha to the southerneastern part of the hex it is right now, and make the hex northwest to it Lake Tungting-hu (Dongting hu).
5. Along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Hsuchow (Suchow) there could be a river (the imperial channel).

SC
no lakes

General: According to my maps there are even more rivers in China with roughly Dvina size (north of Smolensk) mostly tributary? rivers to Hwangho and Yangtze, but also around Canton and on Shantung peninsula, near Tsingtao.

quote:

-A river from Tianjin to Nanjing (imperial north-South Channel)


Isn't it already partly there ? The river going north from Nanking, passing west of Suchow.

It could be made continuous to Tientsin

quote:

-some more mountain hexes in middle eastern China


In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be mountains ? I was also asked by Nils to add more bad terrain around there. I only added the 2 mountain hexes northeast of Wuhan.

From these 2 hexes there could be bad terrain via Hsiangfan to Himalaya (the mountains have roughly the same heigh as the ones in coastal south China). So Wuhan and Nanchang are in 2 big valleys.

Also, Wogun, do you think that Wuhan should be on the north bank of the river, as Mzlin said ?

see above: lakes

quote:

-some more desert hexes in north China


In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be desert ?
The terrain in northern China is entirely desert or mountain in WiF FE, so I'd happilly make the MWiF map more like the WiF FE map, if real geography suggest it too.

Make all the clear hexes northwest and west of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan desert. (from there blows the sandy wind the inhabitants of Peking hate in springtime), and maybe perhaps the 2 around Lanchow desert/rough (I've been in Lanchow itself (friendly Chinese Muslim people, miserable place)

btw. what are the dark-brown hexes north of Lanchow?

About moving the ressources, to make them more Japanese friendly (which gamewise really might be a very good idea - The bigger Japanese offensiv actions after 1938 happened not to secure/get ressources, but because of breaking Chinese will, to secure the north-south costal route and to get Chinese-US airfields):

There are two coal mining centres south of Changsha: Hengyang 150 km south of it on the railway, and Pinghsiang, 100 km to the southeast of it (latter would be a mountain hex)

And there's a BIG scandal: Yennan (Communist capital in WW2, Edgar Snow visited it: Red Star over China) is missing!!! It should be in the mountain river hex between Lanchow and Taiyuan.
Honestly: Please think this one over: If there gonna be more cities, this historical place really should be onboard!

Regards

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 64
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 5:44:23 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		Another consideration that I have not seen much comments on so far, in regards to cities being added.

Cities are more than just supply centers and providing defensive die roll modifiers...

In the CWiF's that I have played with, the delay between "board arrival" and "front line arrival" seems to be more noticable on this front than any other, and stays in my mind as a "feature" of the campaign/war in China. (Possibly because a few units can have a greater impact on this part of the map than others.) Units in the games I have played generally require a turn or two just to reach the lines.

1) A city will be a potential reinforcement arrival point for Chinese units. This translates to quicker deployments, and more places for the Japanese player to screen against (requiring more land units).

The addition of ports benefits the Japanese (although not strongly). More places to trace supply through, more potential places to land reinforcements from the Home Islands, and more places to ship recources out through.

2) Another small shift in the nature of the game play: More rail connected cities gives both players more places to mount/dismount from rail movement. This reduces the need for HQ's to act as rail stations.

This benefits both sides, the Chinese because they generally don't have too many HQ's to play with, and the Japanese, because they may have more land units available to move about...

Also, more rails reduce the ability of either side to cut supply to the enemy armies, and slightly reduces the effectiveness of Chinese partisans...

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 65
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 6:38:01 PM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I think the adjustment to the locations of the south CHina resources will help the Japanese get control of them and I would agree to that if a lot cities were added.

Kweilin instead of Liuchow sounds good to me .

As it is now, the Nanning resource usually needs access to ChangSha and the rails in between in order to ship it out to Japan. If that resource is relocated, how are the rails connected?

Lars


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 66
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 7:06:27 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Ok: for the lakes I'll give our WW2 transcription (modern pinyin, if anybody wants to check it out on modern maps)
NC
1-2 Hexes West of Sining here could be Lake Chinghai-hu (Qinghai hu, hu = Lake)

CC
1. This is tricky: The hex West of Shanghai could be Lake Taihu. Problem is the Railway and the Yangtze (Yangzi) in the same hex. IRL there's only bout 50 km between Yangtze and the lake, with the railway line in between them two.
2.The railwayhex southeast of Hsuchow (Suchow) could be Lake Hungtse-hu (Hongze hu).
3.The hex northwest of Nanchang could be Poyang-hu (Poyang hu).
Perhaps move Wuhan to the southern part of the hex northwest of now-Wuhan, and make the ex-Wuhan hex Liangtse-hu (Liangzi hu).
4. Perhaps move Changsha to the southerneastern part of the hex it is right now, and make the hex northwest to it Lake Tungting-hu (Dongting hu).
5. Along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Hsuchow (Suchow) there could be a river (the imperial channel).

SC
no lakes

Wosung.
I began reading what you wrote here about lakes, and suddenly I realized that maybe you were not used enougth to the MWiF map to see that there already are lakes on it. Lakes are represented by thick blue line hexsides.
The lake west of Sining that you are writing about is already on the map for instance. This is the thick blue hexside. For the moment it is only a thick blue line, but the Artist who works on MwiF will draw it using real contours in the future.


(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 67
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 7:36:20 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

I've played the CWiF china map several times, and I don't agree that the way to go is fewer (than suggested) cities.
Cities are good defensive ground, they give -1 on the combat table unless an HQ is part of the attack. They also help reduce the risk of catastrophic encirclement. Thus, more cities will help whatever side is defending.

My feeling is that China in MWiF is to "open", it's like the ukraine or north-east France, good blitz country.
I want more forest, rivers, cities, swamps, etc.
In WIFFE China is like that. Almost every single hex has some feature that helps the defender or slows down the attacker. When a hex is lost, it's not neccesary to pull back 500 km to the next viable defensive line (like in russia), one can just shift slightly stronger units into the hexes that are now more exposed, and let the line stand.

I would like to keep china like that, and since we are halving the scale, we're effectively quadrupling (at least) the number of hexes. Thus, to maintain city density, we'd have to quadruple the number of cities!!. Maybe that's a bit over the top, but at least I'd like to move in that direction. China should be line upon line upon line upon line, and partisans in the rear if one advances to far...

And don't forget, cities help the defender even if the defender is Japan. Yes to more cities & more ports in occupied China, that will helt Japan staying ashore if they're getting pushed back.

As for specific details I'm not an expert on China, but it seems to me Canton should probably be a city, and I'm also missing all the coastal ports/cities the Japanese captured early. And could we have chinese Sprately islands??

Incy


When there are more hexes, there is farther to go to take out objectives. One limiting factor for the Japanese advance is the number of land attacks it can make each turn. If you make every other hex in China an obstacle, or increase the number of defensive lines by a factor of 2 or 3, then you force that many more atttacks to be made to reach each objective.

There is a balance that needs to be struck here between: (1) preventing the attacker from easily penetrating or encircling a weaker defender and (2) giving the defender so much defensive cover that no matter what the atttacker does, he'll never get through to the objective.

Equally important is the defense of rear areas for the Japanese. With so many more hexes to their rear, partisans have more latitude for mischief. Adding more rail lines helps that problem somewhat, though not completely.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Incy)
Post #: 68
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 8:50:03 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		sorry my fault.

btw. Who owns Lanzhou in WIF: Communist or Nationalist Chinese?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 69
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 9:57:48 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Ok: for the lakes I'll give our WW2 transcription (modern pinyin, if anybody wants to check it out on modern maps)

NC
1-2 Hexes West of Sining here could be Lake Chinghai-hu (Qinghai hu, hu = Lake)

CC
1. This is tricky: The hex West of Shanghai could be Lake Taihu. Problem is the Railway and the Yangtze (Yangzi) in the same hex. IRL there's only bout 50 km between Yangtze and the lake, with the railway line in between them two.
I added it on the SW hexside of the hex that is west of Shanghai (Lakes are on hexsides, not on hexes, well there are lakes that are on hexes, but only really big lakes).
2.The railwayhex southeast of Hsuchow (Suchow) could be Lake Hungtse-hu (Hongze hu).
3.The hex northwest of Nanchang could be Poyang-hu (Poyang hu).
Perhaps move Wuhan to the southern part of the hex northwest of now-Wuhan, and make the ex-Wuhan hex Liangtse-hu (Liangzi hu).
4. Perhaps move Changsha to the southerneastern part of the hex it is right now, and make the hex northwest to it Lake Tungting-hu (Dongting hu).

These are already on the map. I added the names, for the pleasure. I hope Steve will add it too on the real MwiF map (as mine is only a project).
I moved Wuhan as you & Mzlin said.

quote:

5. Along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Hsuchow (Suchow) there could be a river (the imperial channel).

On the west side of the railway ?
So, it crosses the Yellow River, is that it ?

quote:

SC
no lakes

General: According to my maps there are even more rivers in China with roughly Dvina size (north of Smolensk) mostly tributary? rivers to Hwangho and Yangtze, but also around Canton and on Shantung peninsula, near Tsingtao.

-A river from Tianjin to Nanjing (imperial north-South Channel)

Isn't it already partly there ? The river going north from Nanking, passing west of Suchow.

It could be made continuous to Tientsin

I'm reluctant to add more rivers. The original mapmaker already added a lot.
What the others think about this ?

quote:


-some more mountain hexes in middle eastern China

In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be mountains ? I was also asked by Nils to add more bad terrain around there. I only added the 2 mountain hexes northeast of Wuhan.

From these 2 hexes there could be bad terrain via Hsiangfan to Himalaya (the mountains have roughly the same heigh as the ones in coastal south China). So Wuhan and Nanchang are in 2 big valleys.

I think I see that range on my maps. But it seems quite thin, and I wonder if it warrant a row of Mountainous hexes from the mountains northeast of wuhan to Sian.
What the others think about this ?

quote:


-some more desert hexes in north China

In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be desert ?
The terrain in northern China is entirely desert or mountain in WiF FE, so I'd happilly make the MWiF map more like the WiF FE map, if real geography suggest it too.

Make all the clear hexes northwest and west of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan desert. (from there blows the sandy wind the inhabitants of Peking hate in springtime), and maybe perhaps the 2 around Lanchow desert/rough (I've been in Lanchow itself (friendly Chinese Muslim people, miserable place)

I would agree to add those desert hexes.
What the others think about this ?

quote:

btw. what are the dark-brown hexes north of Lanchow?

They are desert mountains.

quote:

About moving the ressources, to make them more Japanese friendly (which gamewise really might be a very good idea - The bigger Japanese offensiv actions after 1938 happened not to secure/get ressources, but because of breaking Chinese will, to secure the north-south costal route and to get Chinese-US airfields):

There are two coal mining centres south of Changsha: Hengyang 150 km south of it on the railway, and Pinghsiang, 100 km to the southeast of it (latter would be a mountain hex)

And there's a BIG scandal: Yennan (Communist capital in WW2, Edgar Snow visited it: Red Star over China) is missing!!! It should be in the mountain river hex between Lanchow and Taiyuan.
Honestly: Please think this one over: If there gonna be more cities, this historical place really should be onboard!

Where is it precisely ?
North of Sian, in the mountains, about 3 hex north from Sian, on the west bank of the river, 4 hexes SW from Taiyuan ?
What the others think about this ?

I think I already know the answer.


(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 70
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 10:41:07 PM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

When there are more hexes, there is farther to go to take out objectives. One limiting factor for the Japanese advance is the number of land attacks it can make each turn. If you make every other hex in China an obstacle, or increase the number of defensive lines by a factor of 2 or 3, then you force that many more atttacks to be made to reach each objective.

There is a balance that needs to be struck here between: (1) preventing the attacker from easily penetrating or encircling a weaker defender and (2) giving the defender so much defensive cover that no matter what the atttacker does, he'll never get through to the objective.

Equally important is the defense of rear areas for the Japanese. With so many more hexes to their rear, partisans have more latitude for mischief. Adding more rail lines helps that problem somewhat, though not completely.


Agreed. The trick is to strike a balance.

btw, I think the biggest playbalance issue that needs to be overcome in China is Japan ability to set up after seeing Chinas setup, coupled with Japan also getting to move first. This is a huge, huge advantage. In almost all other theathres/campaigns in WiF the defender gets to have a look at the attackers setup before setting up (or adjusting) the defence. In WiF the problem wasn't very noticable because China could and would defend pretty much a continous line anyways. In CWiF/MWiF china becomes a war of maouever centered around selected axises of advance. Given the very long frontline combined with the difficulty China has shifting forces sideways along the frontline Japan can easily exploit this by concentrating on an taking out whatever part of the frontline it chooses to concentrate against. The only chineese response to this is an extremely rearwards/defensive setup, denying Japan the opportunity of taking out many units early, and allowing time to react to the direction of the Japanese main thrust. Ways of fixing theis problem would be to restrict the Japanese setup (divide china into setup zones), alter the sequence of setup (my favourite fix), or maybe allowing china some adjustments to their line prior to the Japnese attack (disallowing attacks in China in impulse 1 or giving China an extra impulse before gamestart?)

When it comes to terrain, a situation with poor supply for both sides (as someone suggested) coupled with low counter density tends to produce a very manouver-focused war, with deep penetrations from both sides. Typically both sides will be sending weak, fast units around lines in areas with little prospect of supply (trying to take out supply sources, cut railways, cut off resources/production centers/units, etc). Remember, units do not need supply to move. And a 1-5 CAVDIV can move awfully far without supply, especially if it is reorged by ATR.
Such units are very difficult to kill (because you need supply to attack!!), and can tie up a large number of troops (or cause irrepairable damage). With more supply sources such raiders can more easily be dealth with, and the loss of 1 or 2 supply sources to raiders will be less critical. Also note that raiders tend to make for "knifeedge" games, where luck (or skill/mistakes) with EOT/initiative/Partisans tend to produce a critical advantage in either players favour. Blowout victories for either side is not what we want for this theathre.

Thus, I really like the cities to the north and west of Lanchow and the one in the central mountains, since they extend supply into supply "dead zones" where raiders could otherwise easily linger in safety and within striking distance of critical hexes such as Lanchow/Chunking. They are NOT along any realistic axis of advance, so they don't hurt anything but oos raiders. As a side benefit, they make a complete collapse of the communists more difficult. Communists giving up completely once their last major CITY falls is neither realistic nor good for game balance ;)


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 71
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/26/2006 10:56:55 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Ok: for the lakes I'll give our WW2 transcription (modern pinyin, if anybody wants to check it out on modern maps)

NC
1-2 Hexes West of Sining here could be Lake Chinghai-hu (Qinghai hu, hu = Lake)

CC
1. This is tricky: The hex West of Shanghai could be Lake Taihu. Problem is the Railway and the Yangtze (Yangzi) in the same hex. IRL there's only bout 50 km between Yangtze and the lake, with the railway line in between them two.
I added it on the SW hexside of the hex that is west of Shanghai (Lakes are on hexsides, not on hexes, well there are lakes that are on hexes, but only really big lakes).
2.The railwayhex southeast of Hsuchow (Suchow) could be Lake Hungtse-hu (Hongze hu).
3.The hex northwest of Nanchang could be Poyang-hu (Poyang hu).
Perhaps move Wuhan to the southern part of the hex northwest of now-Wuhan, and make the ex-Wuhan hex Liangtse-hu (Liangzi hu).
4. Perhaps move Changsha to the southerneastern part of the hex it is right now, and make the hex northwest to it Lake Tungting-hu (Dongting hu).

These are already on the map. I added the names, for the pleasure. I hope Steve will add it too on the real MwiF map (as mine is only a project).
I moved Wuhan as you & Mzlin said.

fine

quote:

5. Along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Hsuchow (Suchow) there could be a river (the imperial channel).

On the west side of the railway ?
So, it crosses the Yellow River, is that it ?


Yep. Imperial channel was the old north-south transport-system (Yangtze-Tientsin) It's only a proposal

quote:


SC
no lakes

General: According to my maps there are even more rivers in China with roughly Dvina size (north of Smolensk) mostly tributary? rivers to Hwangho and Yangtze, but also around Canton and on Shantung peninsula, near Tsingtao.

-A river from Tianjin to Nanjing (imperial north-South Channel)

Isn't it already partly there ? The river going north from Nanking, passing west of Suchow.

It could be made continuous to Tientsin

I'm reluctant to add more rivers. The original mapmaker already added a lot.
What the others think about this ?

quote:


-some more mountain hexes in middle eastern China

In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be mountains ? I was also asked by Nils to add more bad terrain around there. I only added the 2 mountain hexes northeast of Wuhan.

From these 2 hexes there could be bad terrain via Hsiangfan to Himalaya (the mountains have roughly the same heigh as the ones in coastal south China). So Wuhan and Nanchang are in 2 big valleys.

I think I see that range on my maps. But it seems quite thin, and I wonder if it warrant a row of Mountainous hexes from the mountains northeast of wuhan to Sian.
What the others think about this ?

quote:


-some more desert hexes in north China

In which hexes do you thing the terrain deserves to be desert ?
The terrain in northern China is entirely desert or mountain in WiF FE, so I'd happilly make the MWiF map more like the WiF FE map, if real geography suggest it too.

Make all the clear hexes northwest and west of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan desert. (from there blows the sandy wind the inhabitants of Peking hate in springtime), and maybe perhaps the 2 around Lanchow desert/rough (I've been in Lanchow itself (friendly Chinese Muslim people, miserable place)

I would agree to add those desert hexes.
What the others think about this ?

quote:

btw. what are the dark-brown hexes north of Lanchow?

They are desert mountains.

quote:

About moving the ressources, to make them more Japanese friendly (which gamewise really might be a very good idea - The bigger Japanese offensiv actions after 1938 happened not to secure/get ressources, but because of breaking Chinese will, to secure the north-south costal route and to get Chinese-US airfields):

There are two coal mining centres south of Changsha: Hengyang 150 km south of it on the railway, and Pinghsiang, 100 km to the southeast of it (latter would be a mountain hex)

And there's a BIG scandal: Yennan (Communist capital in WW2, Edgar Snow visited it: Red Star over China) is missing!!! It should be in the mountain river hex between Lanchow and Taiyuan.
Honestly: Please think this one over: If there gonna be more cities, this historical place really should be onboard!

Where is it precisely ?
North of Sian, in the mountains, about 3 hex north from Sian, on the west bank of the river, 4 hexes SW from Taiyuan ?
What the others think about this ?

I think I already know the answer.


Right: North of Sian, in the mountains, about 3 hex north from Sian, on the west bank of the river, 4 hexes SW from Taiyuan.

I think I already know the answer too, but that's ok.

On the other side: Without Yennan, it would be like Germany without Berlin

And to repeat the question: Who's city is Lanchow in WIF setup Communist or National Chinese? Historically it should be National Chinese.

Regards and thanks anyway for your map-project!!

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 72
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - North Portion - 5/26/2006 11:34:10 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		I think its time to take some bearings with the map.
I've done some modifications to the map, following the votes so far, and adding some of the features Wosung suggested.
I'll post new pictures of the 3 zones after this post.

You should vote YES / NO to these
I had 4 voters for the moment (Me, lomyrin, Wosung, and Shannon V. Okeets -- Steve did not really vote, but he wrote a list of those cities he wanted to keep before I put down the votes)

North China
Cities
- Ankang stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Paochi (was Baoji) deleted (1 YES out of 4)
- Paotow deleted (1 YES out of 4) (was already deleted on the first map I uploaded here)
- Sining stays (2 YES out of 4)
- Tienshui (was Tianshui) stays (4 YES out of 4)
- Tungkwan (was Tongguan) stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Yennan (new proposal from Wosung) not yet on the map
- Ningsia (ws Yinchuan) stays (2 YES out of 4)

Map features
- Make all the clear hexes northwest and west of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan desert. (from there blows the sandy wind the inhabitants of Peking hate in springtime), and maybe perhaps the 2 around Lanchow desert/rough (I've been in Lanchow itself (friendly Chinese Muslim people, miserable place). Not done yet, waiting for forum members comments.


< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/27/2006 12:14:38 AM >

(in reply to Incy)
Post #: 73
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/26/2006 11:35:17 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Coastal China
Cities
- Anking (replaces Hofei) stays (2 YES out of 4)
- Paoting (was Baoding) stays (4 YES out of 4)
- Hofei (was Hefei) deleted (replaced by Anking)
- Nanchang stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Nanyang (replace Xiangfan) stays (4 YES out of 4)
- Suchow (Wosung wants to name it Hsuchow, but I have Suchow on WWII maps, Hsuchow is not present) stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Wuhan was moved (asked by Mzlin, Wosung, & seems correct on the real maps)
- Xiangfan deleted (replaced by Nanyang)
- Tsingkow (port) (was Xinhailian) stays (3 YES out of 4)

Map features
- New Mountains roughly from Wuhan to Sian. I added them to the maps so that everyone sees where they are. Waiting for forum members comments about these. Personnaly I don't know.
- New Lake west of Shanghai. I added them to the maps so that everyone sees where they are. Waiting for forum members comments about these. Personnaly I like it.
- New River along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel).


< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/26/2006 11:47:49 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 74
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/26/2006 11:39:57 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		South China
Cities
- Chihchiang stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Hengyang (new proposal from Wosung) not added for the moment. Waiting for comments. Personnaly I would not add it.
- Kweilin (replace Liuchow) stays (4 YES out of 4)
- Liuchow deleted (replaced by Kweilin).

Map features
- Move resource south. Done for the resource south of Chansa, and the resource of Nanning was put at its original place.
- Moved the rail south of Changsha. It is more accurate to the WiF FE map.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/26/2006 11:51:00 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 75
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - North Portion - 5/26/2006 11:41:38 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		North portion map.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 76
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/26/2006 11:43:40 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Coastal portion




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 77
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/26/2006 11:45:10 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		South portion




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 78
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/26/2006 11:55:46 PM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		In the new China map proposal some rail hexes have been replaced with what looks like roads. Is that the intent, and if so :

How does that affect Unit tranportation, is it like a rail?

How does it affect Resource transportation?

How does it affect suppply lines - can supply be traced over these hexes as if a rail line?

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 79
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/27/2006 12:01:57 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

On the other side: Without Yennan, it would be like Germany without Berlin

Was it that important ???
What did happen there ?
Why do you consider it to be the capital of Communist China ?

quote:

And to repeat the question: Who's city is Lanchow in WIF setup Communist or National Chinese? Historically it should be National Chinese.

Lanchow is Communist at the game start.
Lanchow and Sian are both Communist at game start of the 1939-1945 campaign.

When Nationalists enter a Communist city, it becomes Nationalist, and when Communists enter a Nationalist city, it becomes Communist.
It just cease to be a supply source until next turn, as a city must have been held from the turn's start to be a supply source.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 80
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/27/2006 12:10:31 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
In the new China map proposal some rail hexes have been replaced with what looks like roads. Is that the intent, and if so :

The road was there from the start on the MWiF map.
It is supposed to be the burma Road. It can be closed / opened politicaly and physically (with troops)
I just made it brown to better see it.

quote:

How does that affect Unit tranportation, is it like a rail?

No.
No rail move possible on roads.

quote:

How does it affect Resource transportation?

Same as rail (13.6.1).

quote:

How does it affect suppply lines - can supply be traced over these hexes as if a rail line?

Yes (2.4.2). Same as Rail.


< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/27/2006 12:12:36 AM >

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 81
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/27/2006 12:38:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Coastal China
Cities
- Anking (replaces Hofei) stays (2 YES out of 4)
- Paoting (was Baoding) stays (4 YES out of 4)
- Hofei (was Hefei) deleted (replaced by Anking)
- Nanchang stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Nanyang (replace Xiangfan) stays (4 YES out of 4)
- Suchow (Wosung wants to name it Hsuchow, but I have Suchow on WWII maps, Hsuchow is not present) stays (3 YES out of 4)
- Wuhan was moved (asked by Mzlin, Wosung, & seems correct on the real maps)
- Xiangfan deleted (replaced by Nanyang)
- Tsingkow (port) (was Xinhailian) stays (3 YES out of 4)

Map features
- New Mountains roughly from Wuhan to Sian. I added them to the maps so that everyone sees where they are. Waiting for forum members comments about these. Personnaly I don't know.
- New Lake west of Shanghai. I added them to the maps so that everyone sees where they are. Waiting for forum members comments about these. Personnaly I like it.
- New River along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel).


The last is not shown in the latest maps - correct?


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 82
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/27/2006 12:44:29 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I believe I did not coma across clearly enough about the road/rail lines.

Certainly the road west from Chang Sha is a road as it has been.

There are new lines: the curve SE Wuhan and the stretch in the new mountains NW of Wuhan as well as a few others.

Are they intended to be rails but not shown as rails due to editing capabilities?

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 83
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/27/2006 12:45:11 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		There were 3 new cities that received split votes (2 Yes, 2 No) and you kept them in. I suggest that that there be two variations on adding cities:

A - includes the 3 cities with split votes, and
B - excludes those 3 cities.

A gives the Chinese a stronger defensive position, while B is slightly weaker (though much stronger than in CWIF).

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 5/27/2006 12:52:10 AM >

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 84
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/27/2006 12:52:10 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
In the new China map proposal some rail hexes have been replaced with what looks like roads. Is that the intent, and if so :

The road was there from the start on the MWiF map.
It is supposed to be the burma Road. It can be closed / opened politicaly and physically (with troops)
I just made it brown to better see it.
quote:

How does that affect Unit tranportation, is it like a rail?

No.
No rail move possible on roads.
quote:

How does it affect Resource transportation?

Same as rail (13.6.1).
quote:

How does it affect suppply lines - can supply be traced over these hexes as if a rail line?

Yes (2.4.2). Same as Rail.

The difference between rail and road might be summed up as: "Road is like Rail except for movement purposes"?

If so, then Road might be a viable alternative to Rail for the sections of rail line that bother Wosung, who notes that rail lines didn't actually exist in some places where they are shown in CWIF/MWIF. Road would simplify supply logistics for both combatants, yet not enable dramatic troops movements from one end of China to the other via rail movement.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 85
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/27/2006 12:54:34 AM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		According to the map froon posted on this thread, Nanning was historically taken directly from the sea, without a land bridge to Hong Hong.
To do this in MWif a HQ is needed. I think there should be a port south/southeast of Nanning, to allow Japan to trace supply to Nanning without an HQ.

Incy

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 86
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/27/2006 12:55:17 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

The last is not shown in the latest maps - correct?

Correct. I did not place it on the map s it is easy to see where it should be from the description.
I'll add it if the gneral consensus is to add it.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 87
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/27/2006 1:03:24 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

The last is not shown in the latest maps - correct?

Correct. I did not place it on the map s it is easy to see where it should be from the description.
I'll add it if the gneral consensus is to add it.


Canals, that are labeled canals, are rare in WIF FE: Panama, Suez, and Kiel are the only ones. Each of them was of major importance during the war.

Now there might be some canals that are shown as rivers in WIF FE (the Netherlands comes to mind as a possible place where that might occur). I do not know if that is true or not.

The real test for inclusion of the proposed canal (whether it be shown as a canal or a river) is how much of an obstacle it was to land combat. On that topic I am also blissfully ignorant. I merely note that that crierion is probably best for making the decision.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 88
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/27/2006 1:05:14 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I believe I did not coma across clearly enough about the road/rail lines.
Certainly the road west from Chang Sha is a road as it has been.

Yes it is.

quote:

There are new lines: the curve SE Wuhan and the stretch in the new mountains NW of Wuhan as well as a few others.
Are they intended to be rails but not shown as rails due to editing capabilities?

Yes they are. Black lines are rails I had to redrawn. I had to paste some background terrain (mountain / clear) and then redraw the rail on a layer above it. I started from a flat picture, with no layers.
I should have said before.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 89
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - South Portion - 5/27/2006 1:08:18 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

The difference between rail and road might be summed up as: "Road is like Rail except for movement purposes"?

If so, then Road might be a viable alternative to Rail for the sections of rail line that bother Wosung, who notes that rail lines didn't actually exist in some places where they are shown in CWIF/MWIF. Road would simplify supply logistics for both combatants, yet not enable dramatic troops movements from one end of China to the other via rail movement.

This is all true.
Are there section of rail that are still bothering you Wosung, now that it is clear (hopefully) that :
- Brown line : are roads
- Black hand drawn lines : are rails drew by me
- Yellow tapeworms are : the original MWiF map rails

For me, the rails & roads are fine.
I would not add any, nor remove any.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 90
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