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Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 2:50:27 PM

Tropsbor

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

Not only they make gameplay harder but they are insulting to the Romanian soldiers who died in combat. I realize this is just a game but we can say just to many things (just a movie, just a book, just words, etc.) so where does it start and where does it end? The stats as they are now suggest that Romanian soldiers fled the battlefield when "**** hit the fan" and couldn't distinguish a rifle from a pencil eraser. I may be exaggerating but not by much. I'm not asking you to increase the stats to make everyone happy. This has nothing to do with political correctness. It's inconceivable that Romania is rated so low in a WWII game (behind Bulgaria?

). I know this issue has been brought before by another member and I didn't say much then because after all I expected something to be done (even the slightest change) in 8.3 and 8.4 but so far nothing. My advice to whoever put these numbers: if you're not sure, ask, because inputting "random" numbers won't make the game better. If you disagree feel free to say why using arguments and sources otherwise don't bother because I'm tired of stupid oversimplifactions of the genre: "they sucked because they couldn't hold the Soviets at Stalingrad" almost word for word of what someone from the staff told me. Honestly I expected smarter comments from someone representing MG.

Thank you

// LEADER EXPERIENCE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,75,75,75,70,65,60}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH
{30,30,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{30,30,30,30,25,20,20}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,40,40,35,35,35}, //FRENCH
{50,50,55,55,60,60,60}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //DUTCH
{45,45,50,55,60,65,65}, //POLISH
{30,35,40,45,50,55,60}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,50,55}, //US ARMY
{55,55,55,60,65,70,70}, //US MARINE
{25,25,25,30,35,40,40}, //CHINESE
{45,45,45,50,55,60,60}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,45,45,45}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,50}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{55,55,55,60,60,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,50,55,55,60,60,60}, //INDIA
{55,55,55,60,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,60}, //FREE FRENCH
{25,25,25,25,25,35,45}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{50,55,55,55,55,60,60}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{40,40,45,60,55,60,55}, //PHILIPINNES
{45,50,50,50,50,55,55}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{45,50,50,50,50,55,55}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{30,30,35,35,30,25,25}, //BULGARIA

// LEADER MORALE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,70,70,70,70,65,50}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH
{40,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,40,35,30,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,35,35,30,30,30}, //FRENCH
{60,60,60,60,60,60,55}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //DUTCH
{60,55,50,55,60,65,60}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,65}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //US ARMY
{55,55,60,65,70,70,70}, //US MARINE
{35,35,35,40,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{60,60,60,55,60,65,65}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,45,45,50,50,55,55}, //INDIA
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //FREE FRENCH
{35,35,35,40,40,45,45}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //PHILIPINNES
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //BULGARIA

// TROOPS EXPERIENCE
// 1939 to 1945
{65,70,75,70,65,60,55}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH
{35,35,40,40,35,30,30}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,30,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,65,60,55}, //JAPANESE
{45,45,45,45,40,40,40}, //FRENCH
{50,50,50,55,60,60,60}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //DUTCH
{45,45,50,55,60,65,65}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //SOVIET
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //US ARMY
{50,50,50,55,60,65,70}, //US MARINE
{30,30,30,35,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{45,45,45,50,55,60,60}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,45,45,45}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,50}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{50,50,50,55,60,65,65}, //CANADA
{40,45,50,55,55,60,60}, //INDIA
{50,50,50,55,60,65,65}, //ANZAC
{45,45,50,55,50,55,60}, //FREE FRENCH
{30,35,40,40,45,45,55}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{45,50,50,50,50,50,50}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{35,35,40,40,45,50,50}, //PHILIPINNES
{35,40,50,50,50,50,50}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{35,40,45,45,40,35,35}, //BULGARIA

// TROOPS MORALE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,70,70,70,70,65,50}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH
{40,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,40,35,30,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,35,35,30,30,30}, //FRENCH
{60,60,60,60,60,60,55}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //DUTCH
{60,55,50,55,60,65,60}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,65}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //US ARMY
{55,55,60,65,70,70,70}, //US MARINE
{35,35,35,40,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{60,60,60,55,60,65,65}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,45,45,50,50,55,55}, //INDIA
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //FREE FRENCH
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{25,25,20,20,25,30,30}, //PHILIPINNES
{40,45,45,45,45,45,45}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{25,25,30,30,25,25,25}, //BULGARIA

Post #: 1

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 3:10:36 PM

serg3d

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/23/2003
Status: offline

Hmm, and how would you rate Romania ? It start with the same rating as Soviet Union (which is not exactly historical IMO - Soviet Union should be better then that) and decrease gradually (not too fast). Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ? Or it should start considerably better then Soviet Uniuon ? Like what country ? Like Ygoslavian or Polish troops ? I doubt it - Polish and Ygo troops actually fought Germans, not Russians, didn't crumble at once, and offered stiff resistance. Like French ? Here I agree. But I think the French rating should be lowered. French defenetly didn't resisted the same as Ygo or Polish. You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 2

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 3:17:22 PM

Korpraali V

Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline

Tropsbor: You may want to try SPWAW Enhanced Mod and its ratings. You'll find it at the Depot www.spwaw.com

_____________________________

(in reply to serg3d)

Post #: 3

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 3:41:26 PM

Puukkoo

Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Sein�joki, Finland
Status: offline

Not only they are mispelled as Rumanians, but those ratings are ridiculously low. Some people have even talked about "racism" etc...

There has been a long thread at least once before this on the exp/morale ratings and certainly Romanians should fight much better than that - in a battle they act like they're tossing away their rifles and run away.

I've been reading about Romanian Vanatori de munte and they did their fighting as well as any other nation's elite troops; at times even better.

(in reply to Korpraali V)

Post #: 4

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 4:26:49 PM

Gunter_Viezenz

Posts: 126
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline

But it is true that the Romanian troops were of low quality, thats why they were taken out of barbarossa because they proformed so horribly.

(in reply to Puukkoo)

Post #: 5

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 4:30:34 PM

Korpraali V

Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline

Taken out of Barbarossa?? When? I thought they fought until the nation surrendered and switched sides.

One good source for Romania in WWII is http://www.worldwar2.ro/

_____________________________

(in reply to Gunter_Viezenz)

Post #: 6

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 5:03:51 PM

Tropsbor

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Hmm, and how would you rate Romania ?

Let's ask German officers familiar with Romanian troops

"From the beginning of the eastern campaign, the Romanian army contributed many troops to the operations. They fought bravely under german command and succeded in their tasks. If in 1942 were formed two Romanian armies, it was because the Romanian troops assigned to various german armies in Podolia, Donetz bassin, Crimeea, Caucasus etc. , fought exceptionally well. The modest Romanian soldier fought bravely and 2 Romanian divisions shared the fate of 6th Army at Stalingrad. The fall of the Romanian fronts in the Don's Bend and the Calmuc Steppe is the responsability of the German High Command who, in their arrogant ignorance, gave their allies missions they couldn't fulfill." (Colonel Hans Doerr)

"I owe a particular mention to the romanian formations that fought in the ranks of my army. When these troops were normally supported by heavy weapons, like the ones that supported the german infantryman, they fought bravely under the command of their officers and endured everything with notable patience." (marshall Paulus)

After World War II I asked my friend General Hans Speidel, who had commanded various mixed Axis contingents and became Field Marshal Rommel's chief-of-staff: "Which among all the non-German troops were the best soldiers: the Finns, the Croats, the Hungarians?" "None of them," he said: "the Rumanians. Give them good leadership and they are as good as any you'll find. (Cyrus L. Sulzberger)

"I have already shown what could and could not be expected of Romanian troops in various situations. But they were still our best allies and did fight bravely in many places." (marshall von Manstein)

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

No but take for example troop experience which decreases from 35 to 30 in 1943. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it at 35 or to change it to 40 since the only units left on the front during that year were mostly Mountain and Cavalry divisions which had a good reputation? These units were untouched by the Stalingrad debacle because when this happened they were on their way to Grozny and Baku with Army Group A and they were the "cream of the crop" of the Romanian army. If you're not convinced see the list of RK they received.

http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Or it should start considerably better then Soviet Uniuon ? Like what country ?

For starters, Romania accomplished what no other German ally (except Japan) could: successfuly conduct a large scale operation with little or no German help - capture of Odessa
Yet Romania is among the poorest nations in terms of experience and morale and it's THE poorest in 45. I smell a lot of bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

You're not making sense. Weapon quality is already modelled in the game thus it shouldn't reflect on the troop quality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Polish and Ygo troops actually fought Germans, not Russians, didn't crumble at once, and offered stiff resistance

Are you suggesting that Romanian troops "crumbled at once" and fled before the Soviets? I hope you will prove this in your next post.

But this and what Gunter_Viezenz wrote below really top it. Now I remember why I quit playing SP:WaW. The community here is awfully ignorant and MG seems to support this.

No Gunter, Romanians weren't taken out. Actually Antonescu (Romanian marshall) was the first to know the plans and exact date of the invasion and Romanians and Finns were the only ones to take part in it from the beginning. And the Romanian Army had always maintained two armies on the front, except in 1943, though there were still over 150,000 men fighting on the front during that year.

< Message edited by Tropsbor -- 6/12/2006 3:27:58 PM >

(in reply to serg3d)

Post #: 7

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 5:16:13 PM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline

Those Ratings listed above are the NOT the ratings used in SPWAW Enhanced.
these are.

NEW LEADER EXPERIENCE
45/45/50/60/65/60/60// RUMANIAN

NEW LEADER MORALE
45/45/45/50/45/40/40// RUMANIAN

NEW TROOP MORALE
60/60/65/65/60/60/55// RUMANIAN

NEW TROOP EXPERIENCE
50/55/60/65/65/60/60// RUMANIAN

Under German influence, Romanian troops must gain some experience points but can not equal Germans in experience.
Romania and other minor Nations should have low leadership values until they actually enter the war, then be influenced by their allied partner.

They may be right , they may be wrong and I will not get into another ratings debate.
We at least wanted them to be playable in the game.

< Message edited by Alby -- 6/11/2006 8:46:07 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 8

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 5:22:07 PM

Orzel Bialy

Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline

Hate to sound like an echo...but go try the Enhanced Mod.

The values for the Romanian troops (and others) were adjusted on a more (what many feel) historical level. They are not super human in the new mod...but they aren't door-mats anymore either.

_____________________________

(in reply to Alby)

Post #: 9

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 5:55:36 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tropsbor

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Hmm, and how would you rate Romania ?

Let's ask German officers familiar with Romanian troops

"From the beginning of the eastern campaign, the Romanian army contributed many troops to the operations. They fought bravely under german command and succeded in their tasks. If in 1942 were formed two Romanian armies, it was because the Romanian troops assigned to various german armies in Podolia, Donetz bassin, Crimeea, Caucasus etc. , fought exceptionally well. The modest Romanian soldier fought bravely and 2 Romanian divisions shared the fate of 6th Army at Stalingrad. The fall of the Romanian fronts in the Don's Bend and the Calmuc Steppe is the responsability of the German High Command who, in their arrogant ignorance, gave their allies missions they couldn't fulfill." (Colonel Hans Doerr)

"I owe a particular mention to the romanian formations that fought in the ranks of my army. When these troops were normally supported by heavy weapons, like the ones that supported the german infantryman, they fought bravely under the command of their officers and endured everything with notable patience." (marshall Paulus)

After World War II I asked my friend General Hans Speidel, who had commanded various mixed Axis contingents and became Field Marshal Rommel's chief-of-staff: "Which among all the non-German troops were the best soldiers: the Finns, the Croats, the Hungarians?" "None of them," he said: "the Rumanians. Give them good leadership and they are as good as any you'll find. (Cyrus L. Sulzberger)

"I have already shown what could and could not be expected of Romanian troops in various situations. But they were still our best allies and did fight bravely in many places." (marshall von Manstein)

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

No but take for example troop experience which decreases from 35 to 30 in 1943. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it at 35 or to change it to 40 since the only units left on the front during that year were mostly Mountain and Cavalry divisions which had a good reputation? These units were untouched by the Stalingrad debacle because when this happened they were on their way to Grozny and Baku with Army Group A and they were the "cream of the crop" of the Romanian army. If you're not convinced see the list of RK they received.

http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

For starters, Romania accomplished what no other German ally (except Japan) could: successfuly conduct a large scale operation with little or no German help - capture of Odessa
Yet Romania is among the poorest nations in terms of experience and morale and it's THE poorest in 45. I smell a lot of bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

You're not making sense. Weapon quality is already modelled in the game thus it shouldn't reflect on the troop quality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

Are you suggesting that Romanian troops "crumbled at once" and fled before the Soviets? I hope you will prove this in your next post.

But this and what Gunter_Viezenz wrote below really top it. Now I remember why I quit playing SP:WaW. The community here is awfully ignorant and MG seems to support this.

No Gunter, Romanians weren't taken out. Actually Antonescu (Romanian marshall) was the first to know the plans and exact date of the invasion and Romanians and Finns were the only ones to take part in it from the beginning. And the Romanian Army had always maintained two armies on the front, except in 1943, though there were still over 150,000 men fighting on the front during that year.

Excellent points, and many of us agree with you totally..Again, you need to acquire the "Enhanced Mod"!!!!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 10

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 6:00:49 PM

TheDesertRat

Posts: 119
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline

Not sure how this looks but this is the overall comparision

8.2 and 8.3--------------8.4 and 8.403------------enhanced,,,,,,,
39,40,41,42,43,44,45 ... 39,40,41,42,43,44,45 ... 39,40,41,42,43,44,45
LEADER EXPERIENCE
70,75,75,75,70,65,60 ... 70,75,75,75,70,65,60 ... 70,75,75,75,75,75,70// GERMAN
70,70,70,70,65,60,60 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,60 ... 70,70,70,70,65,60,60// FINNISH
30,30,35,40,30,30,30 ... 30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 60,55,55,70,60,60,65// ITALIAN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 30,30,30,30,25,20,20 ... 45,45,50,60,65,60,60// RUMANIAN
40,40,45,45,45,40,35 ... 35,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 45,45,45,45,45,45,45// HUNGARIAN
65,65,75,70,70,70,65 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70 ... 75,75,75,75,75,75,75// JAPANESE
45,45,50,50,50,50,50 ... 40,40,40,40,35,35,35 ... 70,70,70,70,65,70,75// FRENCH
50,55,60,60,60,65,70 ... 50,50,55,55,60,60,60 ... 70,70,65,65,70,70,75// BRITISH
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 60,65,65,65,65,65,70// BELGIUM
30,30,35,35,35,35,35 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 60,70,70,70,65,65,70// DUTCH
50,55,55,55,55,60,60 ... 45,45,50,55,60,65,65 ... 55,60,65,65,65,70,70// POLISH
35,45,50,55,60,60,60 ... 30,35,40,45,50,55,60 ... 40,45,65,65,65,70,70// SOVIET
40,45,50,60,65,70,70 ... 40,40,45,50,55,50,55 ... 45,45,50,55,60,65,70// US ARMY
45,50,60,65,70,70,70 ... 55,55,55,60,65,70,70 ... 60,60,60,60,65,70,75// US MARINE
25,25,25,30,35,40,35 ... 25,25,25,30,35,40,40 ... 45,45,45,55,55,60,60// CHINESE
45,45,50,50,50,55,50 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,60 ... 45,50,50,55,55,55,50// GREEK
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,45,40,45,45,45,45 ... 45,50,75,75,75,75,70// NORWEIGAN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,50 ... 45,45,45,45,45,45,45// YUGOSLAVIAN
50,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 55,55,55,60,60,65,65 ... 45,45,45,60,70,75,75// CANADA
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,50,55,55,60,60,60 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70// INDIA
50,60,60,65,65,65,65 ... 55,55,55,60,65,65,65 ... 45,70,65,65,70,70,70// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,60,65,65 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,60 ... 70,70,70,70,65,70,75// FREE FRENCH
25,25,25,25,25,35,45 ... 25,25,25,25,25,35,45 ... 45,45,45,55,55,60,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
50,55,55,55,55,60,60 ... 50,55,55,55,55,60,60 ... 50,55,70,70,70,70,65// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,45,60,55,60,55 ... 40,40,45,60,55,60,55 ... 45,45,45,60,55,60,55// PHILIPINNES
45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 45,45,45,45,45,45,45// BULGARIA
LEADER MORALE
65,70,70,70,70,65,50 ... 70,70,70,70,70,65,50 ... 65,70,75,75,75,75,70// GERMAN
65,70,70,65,65,60,55 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,55 ... 65,70,70,70,70,70,70// FINNISH
45,40,40,45,35,35,35 ... 40,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 60,55,60,65,65,65,60// ITALIAN
35,35,35,40,35,30,25 ... 35,35,35,40,35,30,25 ... 45,45,45,50,45,40,40// RUMANIAN
40,45,45,45,45,40,35 ... 35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 50,55,55,55,55,50,45// HUNGARIAN
65,70,70,75,75,75,75 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70 ... 70,70,70,75,75,75,70// JAPANESE
40,40,35,35,30,30,30 ... 40,40,35,35,30,30,30 ... 65,65,60,55,55,60,60// FRENCH
60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 65,65,60,65,70,70,75// BRITISH
45,45,50,50,50,50,50 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 55,60,60,65,65,70,70// BELGIUM
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 55,65,65,65,65,70,70// DUTCH
50,55,50,55,60,65,65 ... 60,55,50,55,60,65,60 ... 65,65,60,65,65,70,70// POLISH
35,40,45,50,55,60,65 ... 35,40,45,50,55,60,65 ... 55,60,65,65,70,75,75// SOVIET
45,50,55,65,75,75,75 ... 40,40,45,50,55,60,60 ... 45,50,55,55,60,65,70// US ARMY
60,65,65,70,75,80,80 ... 55,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 60,60,60,65,70,70,75// US MARINE
35,35,35,40,40,40,35 ... 35,35,35,40,40,40,40 ... 65,60,55,55,60,60,65// CHINESE
60,60,60,55,60,65,65 ... 60,60,60,55,60,65,65 ... 50,60,50,50,50,50,60// GREEK
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,70,75,75,75,75,70// NORWEIGAN
40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 45,55,50,50,50,50,55// YUGOSLAVIAN
65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 50,65,60,60,65,70,70// CANADA
45,45,45,50,50,55,55 ... 45,45,45,50,50,55,55 ... 65,70,70,65,65,70,70// INDIA
65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 50,65,70,65,65,70,70// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 65,65,60,55,55,60,60// FREE FRENCH
35,35,35,40,40,45,45 ... 35,35,35,40,40,45,45 ... 65,60,55,55,60,65,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 65,60,75,75,75,75,70// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 50,50,50,60,60,65,55// PHILIPINNES
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 60,60,55,60,60,60,50// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 55,60,55,55,55,55,60// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 45,45,50,55,50,45,45// BULGARIA
TROOPS EXPERIENCE
60,65,70,70,70,65,60 ... 65,70,75,70,65,60,55 ... 55,65,70,70,70,65,65// GERMAN
65,65,70,70,70,70,70 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,60 ... 55,60,65,65,65,70,65// FINNISH
50,55,60,65,60,55,55 ... 35,35,40,40,35,30,30 ... 55,60,60,65,70,65,65// ITALIAN
45,50,55,55,50,50,50 ... 35,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 50,55,60,65,65,60,60// RUMANIAN
45,50,60,60,55,55,50 ... 35,35,35,35,30,30,30 ... 50,55,60,65,65,60,60// HUNGARIAN
60,65,70,70,70,65,65 ... 70,70,70,70,65,60,55 ... 60,60,65,70,70,70,70// JAPANESE
50,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 45,45,45,45,40,40,40 ... 55,65,60,60,65,65,65// FRENCH
55,60,65,65,65,70,70 ... 50,50,50,55,60,60,60 ... 55,60,65,65,70,70,70// BRITISH
45,50,55,55,55,55,55 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 55,60,60,55,60,60,65// BELGIUM
45,45,50,50,50,50,50 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 55,60,65,65,70,70,65// DUTCH
55,55,55,55,55,55,60 ... 45,45,50,55,60,65,65 ... 55,65,65,65,70,65,65// POLISH
50,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 35,40,45,50,55,60,60 ... 50,55,60,65,70,70,70// SOVIET
55,60,65,70,70,70,70 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 55,55,55,60,65,70,70// US ARMY
60,65,70,75,75,75,75 ... 50,50,50,55,60,65,70 ... 55,55,55,60,70,70,70// US MARINE
45,50,55,55,60,60,55 ... 30,30,30,35,40,40,40 ... 45,50,50,50,55,65,65// CHINESE
45,55,60,65,65,65,65 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,60 ... 55,60,65,60,55,65,65// GREEK
45,55,60,60,60,60,60 ... 45,45,40,45,45,45,45 ... 50,60,65,70,70,65,65// NORWEIGAN
45,50,50,50,50,50,50 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,50 ... 45,50,55,55,60,65,60// YUGOSLAVIAN
55,65,70,70,70,70,70 ... 50,50,50,55,60,65,65 ... 50,50,55,60,65,70,70// CANADA
45,50,55,60,60,65,65 ... 40,45,50,55,55,60,60 ... 55,60,65,70,70,70,70// INDIA
55,65,65,70,70,70,70 ... 50,50,50,55,60,65,65 ... 50,60,65,70,70,70,70// ANZAC
50,55,65,65,70,70,70 ... 45,45,50,55,50,55,60 ... 55,65,65,65,60,65,65// FREE FRENCH
40,45,50,50,55,55,65 ... 30,35,40,40,45,45,55 ... 50,50,50,50,55,65,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
55,60,60,60,60,60,60 ... 45,50,50,50,50,50,50 ... 55,65,65,65,65,65,65// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45,45,50,50,55,60,60 ... 35,35,40,40,45,50,50 ... 50,55,55,55,65,65,65// PHILIPINNES
45,50,60,60,60,60,60 ... 35,40,50,50,50,50,50 ... 50,60,60,60,65,65,65// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,45,45,45,45,45 ... 35,35,35,35,35,35,35 ... 45,50,55,55,50,50,50// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45,50,55,55,50,45,45 ... 35,40,45,45,40,35,35 ... 45,50,55,55,50,50,50// BULGARIA
TROOPS MORALE
70,70,70,70,70,70,65 ... 70,70,70,70,70,65,50 ... 75,75,70,65,70,70,65// GERMAN
70,70,70,70,70,70,65 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,55 ... 75,70,70,65,65,70,70// FINNISH
65,65,60,60,55,65,65 ... 40,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 75,65,70,70,65,65,60// ITALIAN
55,55,60,60,55,50,45 ... 35,35,35,40,35,30,25 ... 60,60,65,65,60,60,55// RUMANIAN
60,60,65,65,60,55,50 ... 35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 60,60,70,70,70,60,55// HUNGARIAN
70,70,70,75,75,70,70 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70 ... 75,75,75,75,75,75,70// JAPANESE
60,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 40,40,35,35,30,30,30 ... 70,70,60,60,65,75,75// FRENCH
60,65,65,65,70,70,75 ... 60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,80// BRITISH
55,60,60,60,60,60,60 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 70,70,60,65,70,70,75// BELGIUM
55,55,55,55,55,55,60 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 70,70,60,65,65,70,75// DUTCH
60,60,65,65,65,70,70 ... 60,55,50,55,60,65,60 ... 75,70,65,65,70,70,75// POLISH
50,55,60,65,70,70,75 ... 35,40,45,50,55,60,65 ... 75,65,65,65,70,75,75// SOVIET
60,60,65,70,70,70,70 ... 40,40,45,50,55,60,60 ... 60,60,65,75,70,70,75// US ARMY
65,65,65,70,75,75,75 ... 55,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 65,65,70,70,70,70,75// US MARINE
60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 35,35,35,40,40,40,40 ... 70,65,60,65,65,70,70// CHINESE
55,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 60,60,60,55,60,65,65 ... 55,55,55,55,50,50,65// GREEK
55,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 55,55,70,65,70,70,70// NORWEIGAN
55,55,55,55,55,55,60 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 55,55,70,55,50,60,65// YUGOSLAVIAN
60,65,75,70,70,70,75 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 60,75,70,75,70,75,75// CANADA
55,55,55,60,60,65,65 ... 45,45,45,50,50,55,55 ... 70,70,70,65,65,70,70// INDIA
60,65,65,65,70,70,75 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 60,70,70,65,65,70,70// ANZAC
60,60,65,65,65,70,70 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 70,70,70,65,60,75,75// FREE FRENCH
55,55,55,55,55,55,65 ... 25,25,20,20,25,30,30 ... 70,65,60,65,65,70,75// COMMUNIST CHINA
65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 35,35,35,35,35,35,35 ... 75,75,70,65,70,70,70// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55,55,50,50,55,60,60 ... 25,25,20,20,25,30,30 ... 55,55,55,55,65,70,65// PHILIPINNES
60,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 40,45,45,45,45,45,45 ... 75,65,65,65,65,65,65// NATIONALIST SPAIN
55,55,55,55,55,55,55 ... 35,35,35,35,35,35,35 ... 75,65,65,65,60,60,70// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55,55,60,60,55,45,45 ... 25,25,30,30,25,25,25 ... 60,60,65,65,60,55,55// BULGARIA

_____________________________

Good Bye!!!

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 11

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 8:14:52 PM

soldier

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline

The H2H values are also worth comparing and are quite good
LEADER EXPERIENCE
70,75,75,75,70,65,60// GERMAN
70,70,70,70,65,60,60// FINNISH
30,30,35,40,30,30,30// ITALIAN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25// RUMANIAN
40,40,45,45,45,40,35// HUNGARIAN
55,55,55,60,60,60,55// JAPANESE
35,45,45,50,50,50,55// FRENCH
50,55,60,60,60,65,70// BRITISH
40,40,45,45,45,45,45// BELGIUM
30,30,35,35,35,35,35// DUTCH
50,55,55,55,55,60,60// POLISH
35,45,45,50,50,50,55// SOVIET
40,40,45,50,55,60,60// US ARMY
45,45,50,55,60,65,70// US MARINE
25,25,25,30,35,40,35// CHINESE
45,45,50,50,50,55,50// GREEK
40,40,75,75,70,65,60// NORWEIGAN
46,46,35,35,30,25,25// YUGOSLAVIAN
50,50,50,55,55,60,65// CANADA
40,40,45,45,45,45,45// INDIA
50,50,55,60,60,65,65// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,60,65,65// FREE FRENCH
25,25,25,25,25,35,45// COMMUNIST CHINA
50,55,55,55,55,60,60// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,45,60,55,60,55// PHILIPINNES
45,50,50,50,50,55,55// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,50,50,50,50,55,55// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25// BULGARIA
LEADER MORAL
65,70,70,70,70,65,50// GERMAN
65,70,70,65,65,60,55// FINNISH
45,40,40,45,35,35,35// ITALIAN
35,35,35,40,35,30,25// RUMANIAN
40,45,45,45,45,40,35// HUNGARIAN
65,70,70,75,75,75,75// JAPANESE
40,40,35,35,30,30,30// FRENCH
60,60,60,60,60,60,55// BRITISH
45,45,50,50,50,50,50// BELGIUM
40,40,45,45,45,45,45// DUTCH
50,55,50,55,60,65,65// POLISH
35,40,45,50,55,60,65// SOVIET
45,50,55,65,75,75,75// US ARMY
60,65,65,70,75,80,80// US MARINE
35,35,35,40,40,40,35// CHINESE
60,60,60,55,60,65,65// GREEK
45,45,75,75,75,70,65// NORWEIGAN
40,40,40,45,50,55,60// YUGOSLAVIAN
65,65,65,65,65,65,65// CANADA
45,45,45,50,50,55,55// INDIA
65,65,65,65,65,65,65// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,55,60,55// FREE FRENCH
35,35,35,40,40,45,45// COMMUNIST CHINA
45,45,40,45,50,55,55// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,55,60,55,60,55// PHILIPINNES
45,45,40,45,50,55,55// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,40,45,50,55,55// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35,35,40,45,40,35,30// BULGARIA
TROOP EXPERIENCE
65,70,75,75,75,70,65// GERMAN
70,70,75,75,75,75,75// FINNISH
55,60,65,70,65,60,60// ITALIAN
50,55,60,65,55,55,55// RUMANIAN
50,55,65,65,60,60,55// HUNGARIAN
65,70,75,75,75,75,70// JAPANESE
55,60,60,65,65,65,70// FRENCH
60,65,70,70,70,75,75// BRITISH
45,50,55,55,55,55,55// BELGIUM
45,45,50,50,50,50,50// DUTCH
60,60,60,60,60,60,65// POLISH
55,60,60,65,65,65,70// SOVIET
55,55,55,60,65,70,75// US ARMY
60,60,60,65,70,75,80// US MARINE
45,50,55,55,60,60,55// CHINESE
45,55,60,65,65,65,65// GREEK
45,55,75,75,75,70,65// NORWEIGAN
45,50,50,50,50,50,50// YUGOSLAVIAN
55,55,60,60,65,65,70// CANADA
45,50,55,60,60,65,65// INDIA
55,55,60,60,65,70,70// ANZAC
50,55,65,65,70,70,70// FREE FRENCH
40,45,50,50,55,55,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
55,60,60,60,60,60,60// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45,45,50,50,55,60,60// PHILIPINNES
45,50,60,60,60,60,60// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,45,45,45,45,45// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45,50,55,55,50,45,45// BULGARIA
TROOP MORALE
85,85,85,85,85,85,80// GERMAN
85,85,85,85,85,85,80// FINNISH
80,80,75,75,70,80,80// ITALIAN
70,70,75,75,70,65,60// RUMANIAN
75,75,80,80,75,70,65// HUNGARIAN
85,85,85,90,90,85,85// JAPANESE
75,75,80,80,80,80,80// FRENCH
75,80,80,80,85,80,75// BRITISH
70,75,75,75,75,75,75// BELGIUM
70,70,70,70,70,70,75// DUTCH
75,75,80,80,80,85,85// POLISH
65,70,75,80,85,85,90// SOVIET
75,75,80,85,85,85,85// US ARMY
80,80,80,85,90,90,90// US MARINE
75,75,75,75,75,75,70// CHINESE
70,75,80,80,80,80,80// GREEK
70,75,85,85,85,85,80// NORWEIGAN
70,70,70,70,70,70,75// YUGOSLAVIAN
75,80,90,85,85,85,90// CANADA
70,70,70,75,75,80,80// INDIA
75,80,80,80,85,85,90// ANZAC
75,75,80,80,80,85,85// FREE FRENCH
70,70,70,70,70,70,80// COMMUNIST CHINA
80,80,80,80,80,80,80// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
70,70,65,65,70,75,75// PHILIPINNES
75,80,80,80,80,80,80// NATIONALIST SPAIN
70,70,70,70,70,70,70// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
70,70,75,75,70,60,60// BULGARIA

(in reply to TheDesertRat)

Post #: 12

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/11/2006 11:34:44 PM

azraelck

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

I believe it is Korpraali V who has an AAR showing exactly what the Romanians are capable of with proper tactics, and I believe this battle predates the Enhanced mod as well, so this is stock 8.x values. I was impressed, and will probably eventually start a Romanian game myself.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1152572

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"Wait... Holden was a cat. Suddenly it makes sense."

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Post #: 13

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 4:00:52 AM

Korpraali V

Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline

Thanks azraelck!

My Romanian campaign is played with 8.4. Of course my troops are very experienced by now, most are either average or veteran levels. Starting battles in summer 41 were hard and very costly. Now the biggest problem is the lack of good equipments. That probably tells something about the real history. For example - if I remember it right - R-2 with 37mm gun was the main battle tank of Romanian forces until 1943 or 1944. That tells something about the issue. No matter how good you are, 37mm gun will never penetrate T-34's armour. So their biggest problem definately wasn't the lack of experience or courage.

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(in reply to azraelck)

Post #: 14

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 4:21:59 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline

you shoulda had some PZ 4 f2s avalable in 42

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Post #: 15

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 5:40:04 AM

Korpraali V

Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

you shoulda had some PZ 4 f2s avalable in 42

Only after July... *sigh*

But after the last battle I got few rare Pz-IIIj (s) models!

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(in reply to Alby)

Post #: 16

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 5:53:08 AM

Gunter_Viezenz

Posts: 126
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline

Im am sorry tropsbor, I did not mean to offend or direscpt you or the Romanians with my misinformed post. Please accept my apoligy.

I was basing it off what I was told and from previous ocasions.

I ahve been reading articles liek this one tonight http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=75. I completely see why you would be frustrated with someone making false accustions like that.

But since I was wrong would that also mean what I know of the Romanians at D-day is also false? I guess I will have to look into it.

Edit: actually I make a mistake it was the Hungarian not the Romanian.

< Message edited by Gunter_Viezenz -- 6/12/2006 5:57:58 AM >

(in reply to Korpraali V)

Post #: 17

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 2:10:10 PM

Mau Fox

Posts: 113
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d
You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

That's untrue, serg3d, since every weapon and vehicle, in this game, has been modelled (more or less) following its real characteristic.

Ammo load out/weapons quality and morale/experience values are two separated topics ...

Personally I do think that, being SPWaW a tactical game, morale and experience should be provided by the "Gamer" himself allowing national weaponry and vehicles to make the difference.

Remember, when put in a corner, even the mouse can roar.

Mau Fox.

(in reply to serg3d)

Post #: 18

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 4:20:51 PM

Puukkoo

Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Sein�joki, Finland
Status: offline

And it's always the average experience rating that causes problems. Let's say that if you fight with a force that has seen combat and participated several campaigns you do not use similar values for those than you use for second line garrison forces. In reality 'average' does not exsists, it's thoroughly a relative concept.

But since 8.4 is an 'official' issue it is taken to mean as some sort of declaration -- if some nations have poor ratings it is a mistake to take it to mean a general rule for that particular nation. H2H and Ench Mod use almost the same ratings for each nation but it's only because of playability cause. In a real war it happened tha elite forces of 100 points of average experience occasionally faced second rate conscripts with experience of 30 and squeezed them. In H2H and Ench Mod nobody wants to play the weaker side, they want average vs average matches.

(in reply to Mau Fox)

Post #: 19

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/12/2006 7:00:36 PM

baevans99

Posts: 28
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

Pretty much the same topic here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=939403&mpage=1&key=romanian

(in reply to Puukkoo)

Post #: 20

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/13/2006 12:06:14 AM

AbsntMndedProf

Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline

My understanding of the reason the Romanians fared so baldy against the Soviet forces during the battle for Stalingrad was due to their lack of AT equipment. Also the failure of the XXII Panzer reserves to make it to the battle due to damage inflicted to their tanks by mice and lack of preventative maintenance added to the Romanian troops' predicament. (I recall reading this in 'Hitler Moves East', however I cannot give a specific sitation, as I sold my copy, much to my regret.)

Eric Maietta

< Message edited by AbsntMndedProf -- 6/13/2006 12:07:31 AM >

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(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 21

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/13/2006 3:59:11 AM

forgorin

Posts: 260
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Africa
Status: offline

'Why the bloody hell didnt you get there on time to save their butts?' screamed the Field General into the field tellephone.

'We are really sorry sir, but mice ate out tanks.' Whinged the colonel in charge of the XXII Panzer reserves.

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Stress is the confusion created when ones own mind over rides the bodies desire to choke the living **** out of some asshole who really deserves it!

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Post #: 22

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/13/2006 4:24:51 AM

Tropsbor

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

I wouldn't say that the Romanians fared so badly against the Soviets. Considering they were outnumbered almost 1:5 in infantry and the density of the medium AT guns were one at every 2.735 km in the sector of the 3rd Army and one at every 5.7 km in the sector of the 4th Army, I thought they did fairly well in these circumstances. I'm not exactly sure of the 1:5 infantry ratio, but together the 3rd and 4th Romanian Armies mustered 240,000 men including 11,000 Germans (probably from the 22nd Panzer Division put in reserve). And from the I read some time ago the Soviet South-Western Front facing the 3rd Romanian Army and the Stalingrad Front facing the 4th Romanian Army numbered over 1,100,000 men and 1,300 tanks of which mostly T-34's and KV tanks. The 1st Romanian Panzer Division had only 22 medium tanks (11 x Mark III and 11 x Mark IV). Anyway, what I can tell you for sure is that when the offensive started the South-Western Front assaulted the Romanian lines with the 5th Tank Army and 21st Army. In total 338,631 men against something like 45,000 men from the 13th, 14th Infantry and 1st Cavalry divisions.

serg3d suggested that the Romanians crumbled in an instant, but while I'm waiting for his proof here are some incidents in which Romanian infantrymen held they grounds very long against overwhelming odds:

"Rasconescu was a battalion commander in the 15th Dorobanti [infantry] Regiment of the 6th Infantry Division. His was the only Romanian formation of Lascar's embattled group to escape Soviet encirclement during the Battle of Stalingrad. From 26th November until 3rd December 1942 Rasconescu's battalion prevented the Soviet 8th Cavalry Corps from capturing the vital German airfield at Oblivkavia, a heroic stand against overwhelming odds which earned this very junior officer a Ritterkreuz."

"Hristea commanded the famed 2nd Calarasi Cavalry Regiment, which during the Battle of Stalingrad defended an eighty-kilometer stretch of front for the embattled Romanian 4th Army. Incredibly, Hristea held this sector against Soviet attacks for nearly a month before being forced to withdraw. Hristea himself suffering grievous maiming wounds while leading his troops against heavy Soviet armor, in one instance firing his pistol at a KV-1 tank."

use of limited ressources:

"[Alexandru Serbanescu] distinguished himself during the retreat from Stalingrad's airfields in a dramatic battle. When Soviets broke the German and Romanian defense in November 1942 and appeared near the Karpovka airfield, where the 7th FG was stationed, �erb�nescu organized very well the defense of the airbase. His infantry experience was in that case very useful. �erb�nescu had only limited resources: FLAK guns, aircraft guns and a company of soldiers. The Romanian camouflaged positions and well leaded defense stopped Russian tank attacks on the airfield during next the 2 days! Using the Bf 109's 20 mm guns like antitank weapons on the ground was a unique case of airplane-tank duel (the airplane's tail was lifted on barrels)! On 23 November 1942 the Romanians evacuated 16 Bf 109E (3 of them were lost because they had to take off under fire and were hit). Each airplane carried two or three people. �erb�nescu had two mechanics as passengers."

That's it for now I got to go to work.

(in reply to AbsntMndedProf)

Post #: 23

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/13/2006 5:24:33 AM

azraelck

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
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Going by Stalingrad, then the Germans should get very poor ratings as well. The Romanians in Stalingrad fared no worse than their German counterparts; ill equipped, and facing a massive superiority in manpower and armor, as well as air superiority and artillery superiority; in an unfamiliar area with literally millions of holes for enemies to hide and ambush you. Things were further compunded by the immense idiocies of Hitler, who's obssesive nature, lack of intelligent thought, constant shuffling of the high command, refusal to allow withdrawl, and failure of the Luftwaffe to keep them supplied. I don't care what army you were from, or what nation; your not going to fare particularly well in the Stalingrad campaign.

_____________________________

"Wait... Holden was a cat. Suddenly it makes sense."

(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 24

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/13/2006 12:12:22 PM

serg3d

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/23/2003
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I have impression abot low morale of Romanian troops mostly from Antony Beevor "Stalingrad".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor
He compare protocols of interrogations of German and Romanian prisoners.Interrogator conclusion was that Germans were ready fight to the end, while Romanian were "in low political moral state", had widespread hatred for Antonescu for "having sold their moverland to Germany" and have high number self-inflicting wounds and poor relations with their own officers who were "very rude" and "often struk them".
BTW I didn't tell Romanian "crumble at once". I was talking about Poland and Ygo and them not crambling at once while facing Germans.
And to state that Romainans fought better then Finns would by a nonsence in my opinion and completly discredit the source. At the end of Continuation War in 1944 Finns were facing battle hardened Red Army with overwheliming amount of atrillery and tanks and elite 30th Guard Army Corps on the point of the offence and fought it to standstill.

(in reply to azraelck)

Post #: 25

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/13/2006 2:04:04 PM

264rifle

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
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In ANY FIRST HAND RECOLLECTION, we have evaluate the source. Did the person making the statement have first hand knowledge of ALL the facts.

In this instance did the German officer comparing the Romanians to other troops actually serve in the field with ALL the troops he was refering to???? Not just sit at headquarters and recieve reports.?????
Maybe He did, I don't know.

Assigning moral ratings or experience levels based on one battle or couple of month campaign out of a multi-year war can also be very misleading. Or rating an entire army by the performance of ONE batalion or regiment. It may have been all the game designer had at the time the game was worked on however.

As has been said before, some times these ratings are modified to TRY to cover other problems that are not quite relected in the game.

See the above quote about Romanians fighting well "IF" given the "SAME" heavy support as german troops.
I am guessing that the Romanian army used even fewer trucks for transport than the Germans and had fewer and lighter guns (artillery) on the average per division. THe lack of motor transport might mean less tonnage of artillery ammunition per division. Trying to adress this by higher costs per battery of Romanian Artillery or lower ammo load outs per battery for same costs screws up the game for the head to head match-up games. And would generate a stack of OOB compaints. tryng to adress the problem by lowering the morale and experience levels does't work well either.

Given the game engine limits there may not be a "GREAT" solution, only a less bad one

This is another case of WHICH way the the game should go. Tatical (battalion) level history were EVERY army had some units that fought very well. OR GRAND TACTICAL (division or corp) level were incompetent command could negate the best efforts of the men in the field and lead to "historic" (every body knows that the XXXXXX troops crumpled at the first shot ) results in our games.

(in reply to serg3d)

Post #: 26

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/14/2006 2:04:32 AM

Tropsbor

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/29/2005
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quote:

I have impression abot low morale of Romanian troops mostly from Antony Beevor "Stalingrad".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor
He compare protocols of interrogations of German and Romanian prisoners.Interrogator conclusion was that Germans were ready fight to the end, while Romanian were "in low political moral state", had widespread hatred for Antonescu for "having sold their moverland to Germany" and have high number self-inflicting wounds and poor relations with their own officers who were "very rude" and "often struk them".
BTW I didn't tell Romanian "crumble at once". I was talking about Poland and Ygo and them not crambling at once while facing Germans.
And to state that Romainans fought better then Finns would by a nonsence in my opinion and completly discredit the source. At the end of Continuation War in 1944 Finns were facing battle hardened Red Army with overwheliming amount of atrillery and tanks and elite 30th Guard Army Corps on the point of the offence and fought it to standstill.

He also writes this:

"After one hour, Soviet rifle divisions, unsupported by tanks, advanced. The guns and Katyusha batteries, still shooting blind, increased their range to take on the Romanian second line and artillery. The ill-equipped Romanian infantry, although shaken by the heavy bombardment, straightened up in their trenches, and fought back bravely. 'The attack was repulsed,' reported a German officer with the 13th Romanian Infantry Division. A second assault, this time supported by tanks, was also beaten off. Eventually, after another round of shelling, the Soviet guns abruptly ceased shooting. The mist seemed to make the silence deeper. Then, the Romanians heard the sound of tank engines."

and

"The Romanian soldiers stood up bravely to several more waves of Soviet infantry, and managed to knock out a number of tanks, but without enough anti-tank weapons, they were doomed. Several groups of tanks broke through, then attacked sideways. Unable to waste further time with infantry attacks, the Soviet generals sent their armored formations straight at the Romanian lines en masse, and the main breakthroughs came around midday."

But I have a small faith in Beevor's writings about the Romanian army at Stalingrad because his book is based on German and Russian archives which makes his stories pretty one-sided. For this reason I would discard authors like him, Craig, Keegan, etc. to tell anything close to truthful about the Romanian army. Personally I find certain German reports about the battle very dubious. Fo example, Beevor writes that the reason why Heim's 48th Panzer Corps failed to help the embattled 3rd Romanian Army is because his tanks have been sabotaged by MICE! If you actually believe this you'll believe anything. I've only read excerpts from his book and so far I had no idea about the interrogations but I find them dubious and meaningless too. During the battle of Stalingrad the Romanian army suffered 160,000 casualties and of the 91,000 Axis prisoners taken by the Soviets when the 6th Army surrendered, only 3,000 were Romanians. If the German prisoners were so willing to fight until death why didn't they? Because the Romanian soldiers trapped inside the city did fight until death. If only 3,000 survived to be captured from the 1st Cavalry, 20th Infantry and Col. Voicu detachment, then I believe they did fight until death. Whether their political moral state was high or low this has no major bearing on their fighting capability unless you believe that every German soldier adored Hitler and his party. The following paragraph also contradicts what Beevor wrote about Romanian troops trapped inside the city.

"At the beginning of December, the 82nd Infantry Regiment, from the 20th Division, repulsed the attack of two Soviet divisions, earning the Mihai Viteazul Order 3rd class, 50 Iron Crosses for some of its men and citations from the 4th Corps and 6th Army."
http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=12

Also I don't see any reason for you to compare the Finnish and Romanian armies. The conditions in which they fought were quite different. For example major operations ceased in the north between late 1941 and mid 1944. This in turn allowed the Finns to be in a much better shape in time for the Soviet offensive. On the other side the Romanian armies at Stalingrad had been fighting for 2 years without break and it was very hard to supply reinforcements over a 2,000 km distance. The Finns benefited from much shorter supply routes. Also the fights in the north didn't reach the same intensity as in the south. And you think the Romanian armies at Stalingrad were not overwhelmed? 3rd Rom. Army, 4th Rom. Army versus 1st Guard Army, 5th Tank Army, 21st Army, 51st Army, 62nd Army, 63rd Army and 57th Army totalling over 1,000,000 men, 1,300 tanks, 11,000 artillery pieces and over 800 airplanes. And bear in mind that the Romanian armies had to cover over 438 kilometers of frontline, hence the low density of the heavy AT guns (in average one heavy AT gun per every 4.23 kilometer)! The 8th Cavalry division found itself covering 100 km of the front...

(in reply to 264rifle)

Post #: 27

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/14/2006 2:18:29 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline

play the Romainians in SPWAW Enhanced
they aint bad

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(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 28

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/14/2006 2:38:25 AM

Tropsbor

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

If you doubt the quality of Romanian officers then please see the list of foreign RK receivers. If you don't have such a list I can provide you with one: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1728

Their accomplishments: http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

If you think that the current exp/morale ratings reflect well on these men and many others you have to be out of your mind. But I don't deny that there were also bad officers. However you can't take one bad or good incident and generalize it to all of them. This is what SPWAW does though.

An excellent post written by one of the owners of www.worldwar2.ro regarding Romanian officers: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=625517&highlight=tataranu#625517

(in reply to Alby)

Post #: 29

RE: Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic - 6/14/2006 2:40:32 AM

Tropsbor

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

Thanks Alby. I've downloaded the game last night and am installing it now.

(how come I can't edit my posts anymore)

(in reply to Tropsbor)

Post #: 30

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