Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Does anyone have an idea why these AAR's have nothing common with RL events? I mean it is fun and stuff, I am curious too, but hell 11 allied CVs in mid 43? 200+ land based IJN attack planes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

It's not that impossible if You think about it, especially if You take into consideration that 3 of them are RN (well of course historically they are in IO except Victorious). You have the 6 pre-wer fleet CVs plus 2-3 Essexes by mid 43 plus 3-4 CVLs as well, so even if You loose 1-2 of the prewar CVs it is still about 10 CVs....Historically by Aug 1943 the USN had in comission Sara, Big-E, Essex, Lex II, Bunker Hill and Yorktown II as well as the first 4 CVLs, so that is exactly 10 CVs plus Victorious. I know that is frightening but that's the US warmachine...

Things changed markedly compared to 06-08. '42.

But that is the point...many people think GGs respawn is based on some sort of empirical historical prescience. That's why folks say here...gee, how unrealistic, 11 CVs for the Allies in mid 43!!! You have already listed above two Essexes which will never arrive in a game of WITP if the namesake stays afloat, guaranteeing that the number of carriers available to the USN is always four less than historical.

Another point, we don't have the IDs of the CVs involved. They might include many USN CVEs. If one refers to a CVE as a CV, then the Allies have more than a mere 11 CVs by mid 43.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Does anyone have an idea why these AAR's have nothing common with RL events? I mean it is fun and stuff, I am curious too, but hell 11 allied CVs in mid 43? 200+ land based IJN attack planes?

What's wrong with it? I'd say the Allied player is just doing better than history. Let's say he didn't lose any CVs and the British fleet decided to come play in the Pacific. I can see 11 CVs there. If you want RL, read a book.

Art by the amazing Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

It must be my english.

I was wondering how -given there was a possibility- no such numbers were concentrated historically (at least till mid 44). IMHO the fleets had to defend territories, so they could only use say 50-70% of their strength on offensives. IN Witp IIhere should be a way to penalize leaving areas undefended, such as IJN emptying Home Islands or british CVs leaving IO before Malaya is neutralized. Etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill

OK, enough with the half time commentary lets get on with the second half.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-

quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-

I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

quote:

CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.

And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...

Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...

Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.

But ever wonder why they modelled aircraft handling penalties for airbases but totally ignored carriers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.

And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.

The A2A, CV ops, and CV strike coordination models certainly do leave a lot to be desired. Although I have to say that over the course of an entire day, Ryujo (or any CV) could certainly be expected to launch all her aircraft (and recover any survivors). Part of the problem is one of scale. The one day turn has led to some choices that don't feel right to many of us (strikes composed of entire air groups, interceptions made by 100% of CAP) simply because over the course of a day, all the aircraft could have participated in strikes, all the fighters could have made interceptions, etc. Unfortunately, these choices combined with the strike coordination rule make for some unrealistically vicious interceptions by CAP, and do not allow sufficiently for strike packages that manage to largely evade CAP.

Again, a good work-around is to limit CAP to 30-40%.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...

Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.

But ever wonder why they modelled aircraft handling penalties for airbases but totally ignored carriers?

Wouldn't say that they did - trying putting 2X capacity on a carrier and see what happens to operations...

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno.  Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan.  But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats.  It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine.  But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway.  It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations.  It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs.  I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed).  It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair).  You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-

Art by the amazing Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-

I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.

And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.

quote:

I'll use the Marianas Turkey Shoot reference this time. How many IJN aircraft went down without getting near the US carriers? Again just my 2 cents worth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-

I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.

And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.

Ron;
I'll use the Marianas Turkey Shoot reference this time. How many IJN aircraft went down without getting near the US carriers? Again just my 2 cents worth.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.

And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.

The A2A, CV ops, and CV strike coordination models certainly do leave a lot to be desired. Although I have to say that over the course of an entire day, Ryujo (or any CV) could certainly be expected to launch all her aircraft (and recover any survivors). Part of the problem is one of scale. The one day turn has led to some choices that don't feel right to many of us (strikes composed of entire air groups, interceptions made by 100% of CAP) simply because over the course of a day, all the aircraft could have participated in strikes, all the fighters could have made interceptions, etc. Unfortunately, these choices combined with the strike coordination rule make for some unrealistically vicious interceptions by CAP, and do not allow sufficiently for strike packages that manage to largely evade CAP.

Again, a good work-around is to limit CAP to 30-40%.

Art by the amazing Dixie