Slitherine

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Kalgan (hex NW of Peking) (proposal) (0 YES, 1 voters) (NO : Froonp) NO, but I think rail coming from NW mountains should connect through that hex

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New City: Jianling(Sashi) 3 hexes SW of Nanyang, where Yangtze is printed on map (reason: This looks like a reasonable-sized city, and currently there is no good supply source in the area between the Yangtze and HangKiang, which is an important bit of front real estate, and also the area between/along those rivers seem to have good infrastructure ans heavy population, but there are no cities)
Ichang (3 hexes W of Wuhan) (proposal) (0 voters) NO (Yianling seems the bigger, and I don't think both are waranted) YES if no Yianling

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ORIGINAL: Yohan

I have one comment for those who discuss CWiF as part of the analysis on MWiF for China. It is flawed. The game was flawed and there is no where enough statistical data to make a valid analysis.

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Patrice, I think it is time to draw a line in the sand and call the map with hte current votes. Let the play testers have at it.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

As I already wrote Yohan, you didn't really vote for each city (except saying NO for 3 of them) aren't you interested in rating the others ?

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As I already wrote Yohan, you didn't really vote for each city (except saying NO for 3 of them) aren't you interested in rating the others ?

I was yes except for the no votes <g>

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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New City: Jianling(Sashi) 3 hexes SW of Nanyang, where Yangtze is printed on map (reason: This looks like a reasonable-sized city, and currently there is no good supply source in the area between the Yangtze and HangKiang, which is an important bit of front real estate, and also the area between/along those rivers seem to have good infrastructure ans heavy population, but there are no cities)
Ichang (3 hexes W of Wuhan) (proposal) (0 voters) NO (Yianling seems the bigger, and I don't think both are waranted) YES if no Yianling

Well, on the WWII maps, Ichang is often present, and Jianling (Sashi) (or Yianling ?) is not.

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ORIGINAL: Incy
btw, I'd also really like to see more bad terrain between the Hankiang and the yangtze, especially in the northern part (north of the Wuhan-Ichang hexrow). Google has a few areas with really good resolution in this area, and it's visible that the terrain is 90% forested hills (Unlike most other hilled areas in eastern china, witch show mostly farmed terraces in hilly terrain with high resolution).

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The area between Han Kiang and Yangzee seems to have way to good terrain. My suggestion: Hex NW+W of Wuhan (east of Han Kiang): clear->Mountain , Hex west of that: clear->forest , Hex west of that: clear->mountain , Hex west of that: forest->mountain , Hex NE of that: clear->mountain , Hex NW of that: clear->forest (linking up to forest north of river)

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I agree that it seems there is too much good terrain, but I think that the mountains here are not elevated enough or broken enough to warrant all that. Also, those modifications would widden the mountain between Wuhan & Chungking too much. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Incy
btw, I'd also really like to see more bad terrain between the Hankiang and the yangtze, especially in the northern part (north of the Wuhan-Ichang hexrow). Google has a few areas with really good resolution in this area, and it's visible that the terrain is 90% forested hills (Unlike most other hilled areas in eastern china, witch show mostly farmed terraces in hilly terrain with high resolution).

I'm reluctant to add more moutains (as I said above) but I agree that the terrain should be more broken, so could you be specific as to where you would add forests ?

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Incy, I'm thinking about adding 3 forest hexes. 2 where Hankiang is written and a 3rd NW of the Western one. All 3 are on the Western / Southern Hankiang bank.

Would you agree with this placement ?

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Also, I'm realizing (I seem to remember that someone raised that issue, but am not sure) that Nanyang may be placed at the wrong place. Measuring and looking at Google Earth, I think that it should be in the hex NW from where I placed it (still on the rail).
I would remove the Mountain from this hex too.

What do you think of that ?

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ORIGINAL: Incy

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Incy, I'm thinking about adding 3 forest hexes. 2 where Hankiang is written and a 3rd NW of the Western one. All 3 are on the Western / Southern Hankiang bank.

Would you agree with this placement ?

Yes. More or less exctly what I was hoping for.

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Also, I'm realizing (I seem to remember that someone raised that issue, but am not sure) that Nanyang may be placed at the wrong place. Measuring and looking at Google Earth, I think that it should be in the hex NW from where I placed it (still on the rail).
I would remove the Mountain from this hex too.

What do you think of that ?

Defiantely better, yes. There's still something wrong with the proportions in this area, according to google the distances
Nanyang<->Sian and Nanyang<->Wuhsan should be just about equal. Maybe Nanyang should be placed yet another hex further west (so NW+W fgrom wheree it is now)? This would also place it more correct with respect to Chengchow.

Problem with moving it there is that it moves across the starting line into chinese-held territory. Did Japan hold Nanyang sept 1 '39 ??
Mountains would also have to be rearranged, of course (mountain-> clear in hexes SW and E of new location, clear-> mountain in current nanyang location ?) Also, the railraoad seems wrong here. The rail runs SW from Nanyang to Xianfang (by the Hiankiang), but then departs from the river further south and enters Wuhan almost from the north. So maybe change the rail to:
ChengChow->SW->SW(Nanyang)->SE->SE->SE->E->SE(Wuhan)
or maybe:
ChengChow->SE->SW->W(Nanyang)->SE->SE->SE->E->SE(Wuhan)

It's important to get this area right, as it's right on the frontline, and I think it will be common for the nationalists to try to hold the Hankiang

Incy

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ORIGINAL: trees trees

I don't want to see MWiF get the China theater to the point where Japan feels it must attack China hard to have any chance to hold on to some economic base on the mainland later in the game. This is already the case amongst most players, I don't want to see that accentuated. WiF should never force historical outcomes, but when history never happens across scores of games, you have to wonder about the historical modeling.

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ORIGINAL: CBoehm

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ORIGINAL: trees trees

I don't want to see MWiF get the China theater to the point where Japan feels it must attack China hard to have any chance to hold on to some economic base on the mainland later in the game. This is already the case amongst most players, I don't want to see that accentuated. WiF should never force historical outcomes, but when history never happens across scores of games, you have to wonder about the historical modeling.

I agree completely ...

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

For the start line, do you have a month in 1939 associated with it? Best would be having something around the end of the summer, September 1st, 1939.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Unless someone comes up with better information, I'll make an executive decision here and say that the Japanese do not get Nanchang at the start of the Global War scenario.

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I have another half dozen scenarios that are gonig to need start lines in China at different times of the war. If someone has access to information to help make those decisions, I would be most appreciative.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Strategy might be crazy but will it be effective?

It doesn't really matter if USSR production reaches 10, it will gain a bit with manchurian factory and two japaneese resources, including lendlease from China. How many VP cities are lost by abandoning European Russia? More than will be gained by an early kill of Japan?

I don't think this startegy could be effective in WIFFE? I have rolled the german armour all the way to Sverdlovsk and outside Tashkent in CWIF, before my opponent gave up, it is much further away than in WIFFE, and just to march there will take you a long time.

It is also harder to actually kick japan of the mainland in WIFFE as manchuria has some quite decent terrain and you can keep a continous frontline of 6-7 hexes.
With the new map you can just walk around any defenders.

How much of England are you willing to lose? How much of the Med? If Germany doesn't have to fight the USSR it might find something else to do with all those build points. I certainly would. If the USA entry is being delayed because the Japanese are not taking any Chinese cities, etc., then the CW justs has to hold on by its lonesome I guess. And China is doing lend lease to the USSR?

I agree with Patrice. Your strategy would be a nightmare for the Japanese but a wonderful bonanza for the Germans and therefore a nightmare for the CW and therefore a bonanza for the Italians. Without the USSR to put pressure on from the east, all of Europe becomes Axis.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

For the start line, do you have a month in 1939 associated with it? Best would be having something around the end of the summer, September 1st, 1939.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Unless someone comes up with better information, I'll make an executive decision here and say that the Japanese do not get Nanchang at the start of the Global War scenario.

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ORIGINAL: composer99

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Strategy might be crazy but will it be effective?

It doesn't really matter if USSR production reaches 10, it will gain a bit with manchurian factory and two japaneese resources, including lendlease from China. How many VP cities are lost by abandoning European Russia? More than will be gained by an early kill of Japan?

I don't think this startegy could be effective in WIFFE? I have rolled the german armour all the way to Sverdlovsk and outside Tashkent in CWIF, before my opponent gave up, it is much further away than in WIFFE, and just to march there will take you a long time.

It is also harder to actually kick japan of the mainland in WIFFE as manchuria has some quite decent terrain and you can keep a continous frontline of 6-7 hexes.
With the new map you can just walk around any defenders.

How much of England are you willing to lose? How much of the Med? If Germany doesn't have to fight the USSR it might find something else to do with all those build points. I certainly would. If the USA entry is being delayed because the Japanese are not taking any Chinese cities, etc., then the CW justs has to hold on by its lonesome I guess. And China is doing lend lease to the USSR?

I agree with Patrice. Your strategy would be a nightmare for the Japanese but a wonderful bonanza for the Germans and therefore a nightmare for the CW and therefore a bonanza for the Italians. Without the USSR to put pressure on from the east, all of Europe becomes Axis.

I concur. For all the objectives on the Asia-Pacific maps, Japan is still a secondary power in the Axis. The war against Germany will make or break the Allied game, and the Red Army is the principal engine of that war. Throw it away to cripple Japan while simultaneously letting the Germans run over as much of Russia as they please, and Germany and Italy will be impossible to defeat, and, for shame, Italy will outproduce the Soviet Union.

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If the game is about holding objective cities, Japan is as important as Germany and Italy combined.
I don't think that USSR are dead if they abandon all European USSR (it is quite possible to come back in normal WIF if you have been kicked back to the Caucasus and Volga, cannot see why it should be harder if you had manchuria as an extra roduction base), and I don't think it would be that much easier to go for a Sealion, unless you do it '42 and then the CW has quite some time to prepare, she will not be facing japan, so all effort can be spent on defending England and the rock.

To win thegame you don't have to defeat Germany Italy you only need to reduce them to 15 objective cities(+- whatever they bid), so if the axis are bidding agressively this might be quite a decent approach, probably not the best one, but an alternative.

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ORIGINAL: Minority Report
I think that the city of Ichang should be added as it was the objective of a significant Japanese operation in May/June 1940. This city is an important port on the Yangtze, and receives ocean going vessels. Hence, it is an important supply point. Also, once taken, the Japanese made it one of their key bases for bombing Chungking. The city is in gorge, so I propose to put it on the mountain hex left to the clear hex with the word Yangtze (or 1 hex southwest of Wuhan, then 3 hexes westward).

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Minority Report
I think that the city of Ichang should be added as it was the objective of a significant Japanese operation in May/June 1940. This city is an important port on the Yangtze, and receives ocean going vessels. Hence, it is an important supply point. Also, once taken, the Japanese made it one of their key bases for bombing Chungking. The city is in gorge, so I propose to put it on the mountain hex left to the clear hex with the word Yangtze (or 1 hex southwest of Wuhan, then 3 hexes westward).

Thanks for the comment.
With your vote, Ichang gets 4 YES and 4 NO, so it is now present on the Map 2, the one with lots of new cities.
However, I do not agree with your placement. It is on the north side of the river, and the area around is much less broken than the area to the south and the area to the west, so I thin a clear hex is not bad. Also, it is about 280 km west from Wuhan (3 hexes) and 280 km south of Nanyang (3 hexes), so it's right position for me would be 3 hexes W of Wuhan (as it was propoed by Wosung at the start when he proposed that city).

I added the provinces boundaries on the map, for fun (separate layer, can be toggled off easily as the rest), and edited the rail around Nanchang after seeing the posts of the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=94112&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) thanks a lot for the link, it is full of informations.

Lately, I redid the Nanyang area (moved the city and moved the mountains & forest around), I posted the result in post #438, and I'd like comments about the Nanyang position and also about the terrain in this area (Han-Yangtzee area).

I'd also like comments about the Kweiyang area, as it is not really OK. Previous comments asked to add a lors of mountains there, but I would like the Kweiyang hex at least to stay in a clear hex (as in WiF FE) and as much hexes around as possible, so I'm looking for some middle ground between the all clear and all mountains variants.
Looking from above with Google Earth (new version 4 available) seem to show a lot of broken terrain, but in China not all broken terrain is translated in moutnains, some of the lower mountains can be translated as clear of forest hexes (if they are forested).