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Dear David Heath - 6/15/2006 2:29:48 PM

Soult
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath
...
Trust us Matrix Games always has someone somewhere working on a game.
...
David

7/11/2002

Can we still trust you ? For real please: do you think it was a good decision to give this job to Marshall Ellis ?

Post #: 1

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/15/2006 7:54:41 PM

hlj
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 83
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I am no David Heath, but I have lost neither trust nor faith in Matrix Games ability to make EIA for computer. ^_^

I get the idea that you think that Marshall Ellis is the wrong guy for the job. I can understand how you could come to such a conclusion, but I don't agree with you.

(in reply to Soult)

Post #: 2

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/15/2006 9:02:50 PM

Camile Desmoulins
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soult
Can we still trust you ? For real please: do you think it was a good decision to give this job to Marshall Ellis ?

I think that it´s an stupid question.

I'm not Marshall Ellis, but I don´t know why you can have discovered, only with 7 post, the ability or not of Marshall for this project.

Everybody wants -Marshall the firt one, sure- finish the game and play, but this is not a reason to attack to Marshall.

Only a question... Do you know another person, or another firm, that works in this game?. Another question... Are you sure that, withot Marshall, this project would be born?

I trust in Marshall. With patience, but I trust in Marshall, and I sure tha will be a good game.

Camille

< Message edited by Camile Desmoulins -- 6/15/2006 9:03:44 PM >

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to Soult)

Post #: 3

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/15/2006 10:30:12 PM

Montbrun
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1498
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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soult

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath
...
Trust us Matrix Games always has someone somewhere working on a game.
...
David

7/11/2002

Can we still trust you ? For real please: do you think it was a good decision to give this job to Marshall Ellis ?

Wow. What an ill-concieved, arrogant question.

I dare say, the majority of the Matrix community does not feel this way.....

(in reply to Soult)

Post #: 4

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/16/2006 1:55:31 AM

Soult
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Wow. What an ill-concieved, arrogant question.

I dare say, the majority of the Matrix community does not feel this way.....

There are just two questions, and I would like to know the answer - do you know it ? How can a question be "arrogant" ? Funny, you call my questions arrogant but feel free to speak for the "majority of the matrix community".
And what about this "feel this way" ? Did I speak about feelings ? I simply asked if there was always someone working on the project for 4 years now - Ellis said once he had other jobs to work on too.
And I really would like to know if Matrix would again give a project to a single person who can´t focus on just one job.
Now go on and tell me about the feelings of the " majority of the Matrix community"...

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 5

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/16/2006 1:55:34 AM

Soult
Matrix Recruit

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Joined: 9/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Camile Desmoulins

I think that it´s an stupid question.

I'm not Marshall Ellis, but I don´t know why you can have discovered, only with 7 post, the ability or not of Marshall for this project.

Everybody wants -Marshall the firt one, sure- finish the game and play, but this is not a reason to attack to Marshall.

Only a question... Do you know another person, or another firm, that works in this game?. Another question... Are you sure that, withot Marshall, this project would be born?

I trust in Marshall. With patience, but I trust in Marshall, and I sure tha will be a good game.

Camille

read again and you may find out that there are two questions. You really think someone "can have discovered the ability or not of Marshall for this project"
depending on the number of his postings ? Well, I am just glad you know that you are not Marshal

(in reply to Camile Desmoulins)

Post #: 6

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/16/2006 3:52:00 AM

coregames
Matrix Veteran

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My gaming group is currently playing EiA, and having a blast. We are not in a hurry.. that option is still available. I suggest picking up a copy of the board game to tide yourself over until Matrix releases this.
I for one am glad they held it up. It was almost done, but TMR is a very important part of the game, and that fix has also allowed them to improve other aspects of it.

_____________________________

"The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie." -- Lasker

Keith Henderson

(in reply to Soult)

Post #: 7

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/16/2006 2:49:35 PM

Marshall Ellis
Empires In Arms Developer

Posts: 5630
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From: Dallas
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Soult:

Do you still want my fan club address?
:-)

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 8

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/16/2006 3:26:03 PM

Montbrun
Matrix Elite Guard

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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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LOL

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 9

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/16/2006 4:07:09 PM

Hard Sarge
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Well, I guess I got to put it this way, I will have to try and keep my mouth shut

and anyone who knows me, knows how HARD that will be

But, I will say, I know how much work Marshall has put into trying to get this game out and to have it work the way everyone wants it to

this Post was not fair to either David or to Marshall, and that is just not right

disagree with them all you want, but don't insult them for trying

_____________________________

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 10

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/18/2006 7:57:08 PM

Camile Desmoulins
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

Well, I am just glad you know that you are not Marshal

My dear "king Nicholas", I'm very glad that you neither are Marshall, obviously.

of course, the number of post it's useful for see who are a newcomer or not. And a newcomer that start a topic with such question is a rash newcomer, in my opinion.

Good luck, and good sense, the next time, mon ami le Maréchal

Camille

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to Soult)

Post #: 11

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/19/2006 9:51:43 AM

Ursa MAior
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soult

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath
...
Trust us Matrix Games always has someone somewhere working on a game.
...
David

7/11/2002

Can we still trust you ? For real please: do you think it was a good decision to give this job to Marshall Ellis ?

Is it a good decision to let VIRTUALLY ANYBODY post any kind of stupid messages? Pun intended. There should be a way to filter out idiots and internet prophets from the forums.

I was wondering whether some (most) of the forums which are not ones like general discussion etc, should be labeled as members only. And (later) preserved for paying customers only.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 6/19/2006 9:52:04 AM >

_____________________________

Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Soult)

Post #: 12

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/20/2006 4:06:00 AM

rhondabrwn
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 2570
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From: Snowflake, Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soult

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath
...
Trust us Matrix Games always has someone somewhere working on a game.
...
David

7/11/2002

Can we still trust you ? For real please: do you think it was a good decision to give this job to Marshall Ellis ?

Is it a good decision to let VIRTUALLY ANYBODY post any kind of stupid messages? Pun intended. There should be a way to filter out idiots and internet prophets from the forums.

I was wondering whether some (most) of the forums which are not ones like general discussion etc, should be labeled as members only. And (later) preserved for paying customers only.

You can get the same kind of postings if it was a "members only" paid site. Having a few bucks to spend on a "membership" is no guarantee of competence, good judgement, or basic politeness.

I'll take the open forum approach personally.

And, incidentally, I agree with everyone else that the original post was an ill conceived and ill informed act of rudeness and an unwarranted personal attack which is not something that needs to be tolerated. Clearly... it wasn't.

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 13

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/20/2006 6:43:29 AM

Ursa MAior
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With all respect I do not agree. If people spend money on something zhey behave somehow more thoughtful as opposed to free stuff where they feel they can demand everything. Probably because no EULA or whatever is made.

_____________________________

Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 14

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/20/2006 5:25:01 PM

mlees
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

With all respect I do not agree. If people spend money on something zhey behave somehow more thoughtful as opposed to free stuff where they feel they can demand everything. Probably because no EULA or whatever is made.

Not neccessarily. Some folks feel that their monthly fee entitles them to even more "say" in the creative process, or some such idea like "The customer is always right", and " I pay 'x', so you actually work for me!".

< Message edited by mlees -- 6/20/2006 5:56:48 PM >

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 15

Dear David Heath - 6/20/2006 6:30:43 PM

Murat
Matrix Hero

Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
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The customer IS always right. Without customers you are wasting your time. I am not thrilled with how long this has taken, and do not let anyone fool themselves - this has cost y'all customers.

Having been in the debate of what things are good to include and what things can wait I am comfortable that although the product will not be exactly what I want (and if it was it wouldn't be exactly what someone else wanted) it will be satisfactory. EiH had many good improvements, and Anglophiles adore the naval changes it made. From the little feedback we have recieved I am concerned that the AI may be weak, but I am willing to give it a try. I even tried Gary's piece of crap World at War after my comments there and ended up returning it for a full refund and the hope that he never releases another like it.

Soult is right about a lot of things: this game has already taken too long to bring to the table, the focus on it has been divided, feedback atrocious and the devs and Matrix rely far too much on the 'oh well, adjust' mentality to frustration and concerns. Marshall stayed away from the forums for an undue amount of time and Matrix just ignored everyone.

BUT things seem to have changed for the better recently. Input was allowed, more communication has been had, and repairs are being made to a product that candidly appears to still not be ready for release (at least from the beta test reports).

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 16

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/20/2006 6:56:48 PM

mlees
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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quote:

The customer IS always right. Without customers you are wasting your time.

This statement is the only one I disagree with.

Allow me to give an example. I play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The biggest.

If you go look in on thier forums, you would see all kinds of paying (subscription is $15 a month) customers offering thier opinions (some of them quite strongly worded) on nerfing this character class, buffing that class ability, and so on, a lot of which contradicts the opinions of other customers. But each opinion is based only on what that individual customer wants.

Some ideas are listened to, and acted upon. (Like improvments to the User Interface.) But cries for "nerf" because a segment of the playerbase can't figure out the correct strategy for dealing with a particular in-game situation (for example) are (correctly, imo) ignored.

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 17

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/20/2006 7:10:19 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
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I have had all I can stand

There are several ways of releasing a product.

Don't tell anyone until it is done and say 'Here it is!' This prevents being exposed to the ill will of whiners during development. It also prevents anyone who is a possible customer from having any input into how the game should be designed. Also, the whiners will still whine after the release.
Tell everyone well in advance. This exposes you to the ill will of whiners. It also makes the end product better because intelligent well informed experienced gamers can voice their opinions. By the way, the whiners will still whine after release.
Find the middle ground. Tell everyone in advance of release but not too far in advance. This is the worst of all. The whiners will still whine both during and after the release. However, many good suggestions will get to the developers after it is too late to use them.

As a developer myself, I can assure you that smooth, clean addition of features is best done early in development. I would say that at least half if not 75% of problems with software are due to features being added after it was too late to change the basic infrastructure of the code. Having the courage to solicit and implement suggestions from (hopefully) experienced, well informed gamers is a good thing for the finished product.

Now I would point out that (from what I have gathered by following this post) the reason this product is on hold right now is because Marshall decided to pay attention to experienced EiA players and make some radical changes to how some things were implemented. IMO, his choices were

Ignore the advice intending to fix it with a patch and hope that the roar of the whiners didn't make the company end development before it could be fixed.
Ignore the advice intending to fix it with Version 2 and hope that the lure of money outweighed the roar of the whiners and the company actually was interested in publishing a Version 2. (This, by the way, would possibly have given us a product that was less than playable.)
Listen to the advice, fix the program, expand the cost of development, and endure the whiners. In other words, do the right thing and be punished for it.

ALL HAIL MARSHALL'S COURAGE

How many times have you bought a game you hardly knew was coming out and felt abused by the lack of quality or even playability?

How many times have you bought a game, installed the patches, read the readme and found out that the things you wanted / needed would only be considered for a new version that you would have to pay full price for?

How many times have you wished that developers would only ASK SOMEONE WHO KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT THE GAME before it was too late to fix it?

(By the way, I am sure Marshall knows something about the game. However, 25 years of wargaming experience has shown me that just because your gaming group is SURE about something doesn't mean that another gaming group knows more than you.)

So now --- TO THE WHINERS OUT THERE --- you know who you are

QUIT PISSING IN THE SOUP!!!!!!

IF YOU KEEP THIS UP, NO GAME COMPANY WILL EVER DO A GOOD WARGAME AGAIN!!!!!!

If you want that to happen, just keep it up.

If you want to have good computerized wargames, then quit your bellyaching. Your complaints about this will not likely speed anything up and the negative effect on future development of other games is ASTOUNDING!

We should all be praising Marshall for having made the hard decision, not deriding him for such activity.

I will be starting a new topic titled Petition of Recognition. Please read the first post before posting in it.

[Spelling error corrected]

< Message edited by SamuraiProgrammer -- 6/20/2006 7:12:11 PM >

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 18

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/21/2006 2:54:07 AM

pasternakski
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

I have had all I can stand

Thanks for single-handedly taking this simply silly thread and making it completely bizarre.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 19

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/21/2006 4:07:18 AM

YohanTM2
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1143
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From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

I have had all I can stand

Wow, what a totally biased programmers thread.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy that the TMR was introduced and that changes are being made. I also don't need it to be a port of EiA, just a great game.

On the other hand, I have 3 close firends that were ALL lined up to buy this game. 1 is out for sure and the other 2 will wait it out after release to see what is up.

You comment that he took the correct course. Perhaps for a lesson in the "correct course" you should pop over to the WiF site and read up on how a programmer who is interested in getting people involved works; just a tad of difference.

I am sure I have not convinced you but suggesting by your emoticons we should bow at his feet for how this game has been handled is a touch off base.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 20

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/21/2006 11:51:20 AM

Ursa MAior
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
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Of course there is no foolproof solution against idiots, but should at least try. Nevermind. I agree with pasternakski we are getting OT.

_____________________________

Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 21

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/21/2006 5:44:38 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
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(Parts of this thread are in response to different posts)

First, the original post in this thread was whether David Heath should have hired Marshall Ellis. I feel that my post was on topic in response to that post.

I have been following the WIF thread.

It is certainly true that judging from the forum, the WIF project is being handled much better than the EIA forum. I have learned a lot from following that thread and have suggested to professional peers that they follow it simply to see a master at work.

But, believe it or not, there are still whiners wanting that game yesterday whether it is ready or not. They blame 'Shannon' for the fact that this project has been worked on for 10 years by others and not finished.

Oh and by the way, MWiF has missed a projected ship date too.

My point is that if enough people make enough noise that a game should be released NOW rather than when it is ready, we will find ourselves in an environment where all releases are unplayable. We will also find ourselves in an environment where all of the games will be FPS, RTS, and RPG.

Wargames are conceptually more complex than most FPSs, RTSs, and RPGs. Certainly the graphics routines are more involved in those, but the things that make a good game (playablity, balance) are more difficult to achieve the more complex the game is.

I love to play Civilization, but sometimes I want something a little more involved. I love to play Rise of Nations and Starcraft, but sometimes I want to be able to consider rather than react. I love to play Quake but sometimes need to relax rather than wind up.

There are a lot of great games out there that would be great candidates for ports to a computer. If, as a community, the message is sent that they are more trouble than they are worth, they will never be ported properly.

----------

Yes, I am supportive of Marshall. I will not apologize for that. I have worked on several large projects as a solo programmer in my career. This is the time of the project when all self doubts come to haunt. It is the time when you begin to wonder if it will ever be done. It is also the time when you realize that no matter how hard you want it, due to economic constraints, it will not be the piece of technological art that you had hoped for when you started.

I am sure that Marshall is suffering in his labor. I am sure that some marketing types are also feeling some discomfort or even pain.

Whether you intend it or not, the derisive remarks about the people working on this project are much akin to kicking a man when he is down. An even better analogy would be verbally abusing the mother of your unborn child because the labor is taking too long.

Three more things and I will quit for a while.

1. I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else in this forum.

2. I don't have to resort to personal attacks of someone's worthiness to make my points.

3. If you have never accomplished what Marshall is trying to accomplish, you have No Idea how hard it is. Maybe you should think about that before you start calling someone's abilities in to question.

Matrix Games is offering small scale developers a chance to create things they want to create. I applaud them.

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 22

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/22/2006 1:51:42 AM

Murat
Matrix Hero

Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
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quote:

Allow me to give an example. I play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The biggest.

Well Blizzard (and SOE) can afford to lose a certain number of customers and still remain highly profitable. Their customer input often involves less than 1% of their customers having a strong opinion often directly opposed to another less than 1%, neither of which will terminate their billing in any significant numbers over an issue (according to Blizzard and SOE). This of course has led to both of them being viewed as uncaring about their customers and lacking in customer service on a wide range of issues and the concept that you are bying an unsupported piece of software when you chose to deal with these two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

I have had all I can stand

..........

Please read the first post before posting in it.

As for this, take your own advice and READ. The issue here for the truly informed is not that input was allowed - it is a string of broken promises, including at several points insinuated release dates that are off by years which caused pre-orders (not mine). I could not program this game, I am glad Marshall can. I have a way I would love to see the game released that does not mesh with what everyone else wants but each person has their own ideas and noone is going to get the exact product they are hoping for, not even Marshall, since he genuinely seems to want everyone happy.

Many games were announced, developed and released in the time we have been waiting on EiA. At several times release dates were hinted at and never met. A lot of the feedback, and lack thereof, from Matrix fed the frustration. Another example of this is in the Guns of August thread where we finally got the developer telling us that he was working on several projects simultaneously and while he got some flak for a divided attention, generally got everyone to back off and cut him some slack (plus he started beta dragging in most of the discontent so now they are all sharing in the bugs). For the most part I think people are happier with Marshall now than they were a year ago. Yes frustration still runs high but at long as he keeps us updated monthly (approximately - I know he has been off) we are appeased. People like Ralegh and Titi have kep us more calm through vicarious living in the beta and FtF games they share, respectively, with us.

So to the question, should Marshall have been put on this project the answer is easily yes, because from all indications noone else was going to take it over and it had already been dropped by another dev here (plus 2 other attempts that failed separate from Matrix - although I am not sure those were licensed since they just seemed to be fans trying to port EiA). Has Marshall been perfect? No, but noone is. Could he have done better in customer relations? Obviously, but he also saw what we were saying and made an effort. He has given us a lot of input in what things matter and what things do not for the final product. He is much more responsive now than in the past and he genuinely (imho) wants to deliver a great product to the fans of EiA so we can spread the gospel and maybe allow him some reward for efforts beyond all the ulcers, torn out hair, empty pizza boxes and Shasta cans.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 23

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/22/2006 4:27:11 AM

denisonh
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

Well said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

quote:

Allow me to give an example. I play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The biggest.

Well Blizzard (and SOE) can afford to lose a certain number of customers and still remain highly profitable. Their customer input often involves less than 1% of their customers having a strong opinion often directly opposed to another less than 1%, neither of which will terminate their billing in any significant numbers over an issue (according to Blizzard and SOE). This of course has led to both of them being viewed as uncaring about their customers and lacking in customer service on a wide range of issues and the concept that you are bying an unsupported piece of software when you chose to deal with these two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

I have had all I can stand

..........

Please read the first post before posting in it.

As for this, take your own advice and READ. The issue here for the truly informed is not that input was allowed - it is a string of broken promises, including at several points insinuated release dates that are off by years which caused pre-orders (not mine). I could not program this game, I am glad Marshall can. I have a way I would love to see the game released that does not mesh with what everyone else wants but each person has their own ideas and noone is going to get the exact product they are hoping for, not even Marshall, since he genuinely seems to want everyone happy.

Many games were announced, developed and released in the time we have been waiting on EiA. At several times release dates were hinted at and never met. A lot of the feedback, and lack thereof, from Matrix fed the frustration. Another example of this is in the Guns of August thread where we finally got the developer telling us that he was working on several projects simultaneously and while he got some flak for a divided attention, generally got everyone to back off and cut him some slack (plus he started beta dragging in most of the discontent so now they are all sharing in the bugs). For the most part I think people are happier with Marshall now than they were a year ago. Yes frustration still runs high but at long as he keeps us updated monthly (approximately - I know he has been off) we are appeased. People like Ralegh and Titi have kep us more calm through vicarious living in the beta and FtF games they share, respectively, with us.

So to the question, should Marshall have been put on this project the answer is easily yes, because from all indications noone else was going to take it over and it had already been dropped by another dev here (plus 2 other attempts that failed separate from Matrix - although I am not sure those were licensed since they just seemed to be fans trying to port EiA). Has Marshall been perfect? No, but noone is. Could he have done better in customer relations? Obviously, but he also saw what we were saying and made an effort. He has given us a lot of input in what things matter and what things do not for the final product. He is much more responsive now than in the past and he genuinely (imho) wants to deliver a great product to the fans of EiA so we can spread the gospel and maybe allow him some reward for efforts beyond all the ulcers, torn out hair, empty pizza boxes and Shasta cans.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 24

RE: Dear David Heath - 6/22/2006 5:46:08 AM

David Heath
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hi Guys

Look we can sit back and complain all day long on how long its taken or will take to complete and a lot of other things. In the end none of that is going to help complete the game. Its been a long road for everyone and starting a threat like that is just unfair to Marshall.

David

_____________________________

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 25