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Senseless Senario's - 7/19/2000 5:52:00 PM   
bigjim

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 6/3/2000
Status: offline 		Why do we make these senseless senario's ??? I just tried the "briges of Barsario" or something like that, and it is just a turkey shoot for the German, the Russians get TONS of tanks at the reenforcement hex's which are ALL zeroed in by the HEAVY German tanks and each turn they just blow away the Russians??? I have NO idea why designer's make these senario's that are UNWINNABLE from the START??? Maybe someone can explain it to me, but it seems like alot time wasted on the designer's part since it will be only played once half way thru before the player sez "screw this" and moves on to something playable, and starts looking for ways to erase it from his hard drive BigJim

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Post #: 1
- 7/19/2000 10:09:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Easy, big man. Whenever you have a public forum or a public scenario library where everyone can contribute, you are going to get all flavors, some good, some sour. The Raiders strive VERY hard to give you top notch scenarios and campaigns. But all the scenarios in the depot are not done by us. There are other contributors that also are quite talented. Then there are some who jump a little prematurely and probably should have tested a bit before posting. My advice is to write the scenario designer (his E-Mail address should be available with the scenario description) and tell him about the problem. Offer some suggestions to improve it from your point of view. Without knowing for sure to which scenario you are referring, I can't respond readily. We don't test all scenarios that are posted. Those that come from any Raider should have been well tested before being posted, but I can't always say for sure that is true. The reason is that they can post outside of the Raider group. Anything that does come through us is pretty thoroughly screened. And this should be a word of caution to all scenario designers. One of the most important parts of a scenario is its playability. Good maps and all the rest mean little if the scenario either offers no challenge or is impossible to win. How can you know? You must test it, and retest it. You must play each side as the human player at least once and have it looked at by at least one other person. That is minimal. To rush a scenario and post it in all eagerness to the depot without proper testing can bring bad reviews. You don't wan that. You want your work to bring praise, not reproach. So make sure your scenario works before you post it. If folks begin to associate your name with bad scenarios, they won't play future ones that you might do. Play balance is very delicate. It is not something you can "write down." It is a feeling that you get when you play the battle. And it can ONLY be achieved by testing, lots of testing. WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 2
- 7/21/2000 3:24:00 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Bigjim, your post prompted me to play this scenario, 'Bridges to Borisov' It's not that bad when playing the Russians. I fought it to a draw, didn't manage to get the leftmost 4 flags. Partially due to a bug in the map, there are invisible buildings in the middle of that highway. You probably begun moving your tanks too fast, I used infantry to deal with the tanks that saw my start positions. I also targeted every aircraft I had left at those tanks. Took me about 8 turns to deal with those...also there are few safe routes where you can go initially. Few general comments at the end about scenarios. I've played loads of scenarios for all the SP series games, and one cardinal sin happens quite often. Recently I encountered it in one amphib assault scenario. I guess this 'sin' appears because the scenario maker is biased towards other side. And the sin is that *all* initial bombardments and strafes are targeted *exactly* at enemy units. I mean, what's the point? There is some justice if the target is a bunker and you are attacking, as some intel is probably available. But entrenched units in the middle of woods? How about showing the map to a friend, no victory flags visible, and asking him to plot bombardments. when I encounter such setup I deal with it cruelly: I remove all preplanned bombardments. and a request: How about an option where you can ignore the preset targets and plot the initial bombardments yourself, even when playing a canned scenario? Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 3
- 7/21/2000 4:20:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		Bigjim, That scenario was made by one of the best scenario designers around, Brent Richards. I haven't played this particular one, but knowing his work, and seeing it's rated 4 stars, I'd guess it's pretty good. I think we all run into scenarios that are "unwinnable" for us, I know I do, where another person has much less trouble playing it. Voriax, I like and agree with your point about pre-planned bombardments. Very good point. I will try to remember that when putting one in to a scenario! Don

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Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 4
- 7/21/2000 7:28:00 AM   
Drake666

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline 		If you found a scenario "unwinnable", it dont mean its no good or unwinnable. It just means that your not up to that skill level yet. If we all made scenario that you could win it would get borry very fast for people like me that found most scenarios just to easy. Like I found all of will bills scenarios to easy vs the computer but against other players they are really fun.

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Post #: 5
- 7/21/2000 7:47:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Well, we'll have to fix that, now won't we Drake ? Brent is indeed a top notch scenario designer and puts many, many hours into his craft. I've just looked at some buildings he drew himself to go into his coming Berlin scenario, Reichstag, flak towers. Now that is going the extra mile. Me, I take what they give me. You DON'T want me drawing anything ! But I have friends in high places, so I may get me an on map destroyer in version 3.0 thanks to the artistic talents of Mike Amos ("Warhorse") and the mercy of Paul Vebber And so it goes. A bad day, a bad set of circumstances in the battle, even one bad choice can leave you disappointed. But then you figure, "There has got to be a way." So you try again....and sometimes again I've seen two unwinnable (what I classify as unwinnable) and I designed one of them. Call it Wild Bill's revenge It was never posted anywhere. I may send it to Drake. In fact, I will send it to Drake. You up to it, my friend? Perhaps it could be won, after all Prove me wrong! And I might be wrong. Lets see, once, no twice I was wrong last year The devious planning Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 6
- 7/21/2000 8:45:00 AM   
Drake666

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline 		Send it on over wild bill, always up for a good fight, lets see if its unwinnable.

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Post #: 7
- 7/21/2000 9:14:00 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		One of the most memorable scenarios I ever played was Wake Island in SP1. I played the Americans. At the end of it the Japanese held the airfield, but I was still dug in and my arty was still firing. I got a draw. But my boys still held Wake Island! troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

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Pamwe Chete

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Post #: 8
- 7/21/2000 10:36:00 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Drake666: Send it on over wild bill, always up for a good fight, lets see if its unwinnable.
Drake, if you get a chance, try the Ostroye scenario,Banya Pass,scenario #9 as the Hungarians, now THERE's a challenge!! Those Turans and toldi's really have to maneuver alot to take on the T-34's. Let me know what you think, ok? ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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Mike Amos

Meine Ehre heißt Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 9
- 7/21/2000 11:46:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Drake comes out smelling like a rose! My compliments. He took the challenge and fought a good fight. The scenario has not been released yet, so I won't spoil it for you. The warrior has proven his worth. His final score was USSR 4308, Japan 350. I was very impressed. So he knows now never to invite me to an online battle. He already has my answer Good job, Drake. You are quite a tactician. And me, back to the drawing board! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 10
- 7/21/2000 12:50:00 PM   
deggo

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Lewiston, Idaho
Status: offline 		I was about to start a new scenario so I think I'll try this Bridges of Barsario. I just finished Mice vs Marshall. I only got a marginal victory but killed 48 Russian AFVs while only losing one PZ-IVF2s. I recently read "Enemy At The Gates" by William Craig which covers that part of the Stalingrad battles and was delighted to see someone had designed such a scenario. I sent all of my armor and the mechanized infantry to take the village and pretty much had the best luck with AT guns I've ever had. Disabling the rifles on the 75mms and being careful not to fire more that two rounds with each gun each turn made them hard to spot. ------------------ Scott

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Scott

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Post #: 11
- 7/21/2000 3:22:00 PM   
Fredde

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Goteborg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Smoke, smoke, smoke.. if you get smoldered by long distance fire it's a very good idea to pop a few cans of smoke ;-) Try it and it will probably be easier.

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"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 12
- 7/21/2000 7:04:00 PM   
bigjim

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 6/3/2000
Status: offline 		I guess it is all in your prospective??? I played it to a draw as the Russian (but in my book this is NOT a win) I guess in reflextion my real gripe was the 20 turn limit, since I had to use up about 8 turns of 20 just "clearing the way" and then was out of time for the remaining tasks. BigJim

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Post #: 13
- 7/21/2000 11:54:00 PM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Too bad there isn't some kind of feature that if the game goes on after a certain turn the player gets penalized victory points or something. Tomo

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(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 14
- 7/22/2000 12:00:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Now THAT is a great idea, Tombstone! Let me pass that one on. I like it very much! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 15
- 7/22/2000 12:12:00 AM   
Seth

 

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline 		With the way I understand victory hexes will work in 3.0, you will get the effect. Every turn the enemy hold a hex, he gets points.

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Post #: 16
- 7/22/2000 1:06:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Except that it penalizes the player from turn one. This way we can free up the stringent turn limits on some scenarios and let the player play it out, but at the cost of victory points/turn... Tomo

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Post #: 17
- 7/22/2000 8:11:00 PM   
Anzac

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: NZ
Status: offline 		Well i'm currently playing this evil scenario but it's nice to get my ass kicked for a change!! I remember playing BGR scenarios in SPWW2 and i can honestly say that he always gives a challenge! He is an awesome scenario designer! Sure it's a very tough scenario but thanks to the timely arrival of the mighty T34-85 tanks i'm starting to hurt those nasty Bosch!! It's only turn 9 and i'm fast approaching the first victory hexes with my wedge of tanks. I too have used my Sturmoviks against the well placed Panthers and Tigers and the incredibly bigballsed Tank'esi to destroy the bastards. I can't wait to start the Road to Berlin series. Btw BGR are you gonna put the Kursk series in SPWAW? Btw WB, is that 'unwinnable' scenario that you are talking about the one in Mongolia? I remember playing that in SPWW2 and i thrashed the Jappers! Anyway i'll be sure to let u guys know if i manage to reach the 500 pt objective hexes in Bridges. Happy gaming folks!!

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Anzac "Lest We Forget"

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 18
- 7/26/2000 4:51:00 PM   
Antonius

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/6/2000
From: Saint Arnoult en Yvelines FRANCE
Status: offline 		Reading this thread made me try the scen. Got a bit disorganized when I reached the German lines (the price to pay when you forget a few turns to care about command and control !) and never reached any of the 4 objectives to the left. So I achieved only a "winning draw", with about 3900/2800 points. A very good scen to play against the AI !

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Wargamo, ergo sum

(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 19
- 7/26/2000 7:26:00 PM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		I can't get too excited by scenarios that disagree with me. In my early days I used to invariably lose the first time I tried a scenario. I went back again and tried with the benefit of hindsight. I call it on the job training. As a result I now win a greater proportion of my first games. I always play against the AI, by the way. I confess to being a bit of a sore loser, and I am into this hobby to relax . Losing too many games to humans would not help me with this, although I would probably enjoy it more. Maybe some day... Sometimes I feel that a scenario was too easy to win (Especially when I am defending against the AI). In that case, I will hack it to create a more challenging game. Occasionally I feel that the scenario I am playing is too challenging. I will hack it to see if given more time or better troops I can get a better result. After a few tries, I sometimes go back to the original to see if all the practice has made a difference. Sometimes I am disappointed, other times I am pleasantly surprised. I approach it as a learning experience rather than a contest, and get a lot of enjoyment out of that. I do it like this because I know how bad I can get if I take it too seriously. ------------------ Fabs [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited July 26, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited July 26, 2000).]

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Fabs

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Post #: 20
- 7/26/2000 8:22:00 PM   
Epicurius

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 7/24/2000
From: Texarkana, AR
Status: offline 		Can I have a go at it Wild Bill?
quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Well, we'll have to fix that, now won't we Drake ? Brent is indeed a top notch scenario designer and puts many, many hours into his craft. I've just looked at some buildings he drew himself to go into his coming Berlin scenario, Reichstag, flak towers. Now that is going the extra mile. Me, I take what they give me. You DON'T want me drawing anything ! But I have friends in high places, so I may get me an on map destroyer in version 3.0 thanks to the artistic talents of Mike Amos ("Warhorse") and the mercy of Paul Vebber And so it goes. A bad day, a bad set of circumstances in the battle, even one bad choice can leave you disappointed. But then you figure, "There has got to be a way." So you try again....and sometimes again I've seen two unwinnable (what I classify as unwinnable) and I designed one of them. Call it Wild Bill's revenge It was never posted anywhere. I may send it to Drake. In fact, I will send it to Drake. You up to it, my friend? Perhaps it could be won, after all Prove me wrong! And I might be wrong. Lets see, once, no twice I was wrong last year The devious planning Wild Bill


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(in reply to bigjim)
Post #: 21
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