M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific

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M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/3/2006 5:43:46 AM

Dragoon 45

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I recently read a post on a different board where one individual insisted that the M-3 Medium was used by US Forces in the Pacific. In particular he states that 10-15 of them were shipped to the Phillipines prior to 7 Dec. Supposedly they were on the same ship that the M-3 GMC's were on. He went on to insist that the Marines used some M-3 Mediums in some of the earlier battles in the Pacific. He did not give any references to back up his statements.

I have never read anything about the use of the M-3 Lee in the Pacific, except that some of the Commonwealth Forces used Grant's and Lee's in Burma. These tanks were orginally supplied to the 8th Army in NA and then shipped to Burma when the Shermans replaced the Lee/Grant models. As far as I know the USMC never received any M-3 Mediums for anything to include training roles.

Any one have any info that might support this guy's statements?

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/3/2006 6:16:12 AM

azraelck

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M3 Mediums, no. M3 Lights, the infamous Stuarts; yesh. Our resident Gunny might have more information, but the first action of US armored fighting vehicles were fought by Stuarts, not Lees, and to my knowledge the USMC or US Army both did not recieve or use any medium tanks besides the M4 mediums.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/3/2006 6:37:02 AM

Twotribes

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Never saw or heard anything about the M-3 in the pacific except the Stuart. The Marines didnt even start using larger tanks till much later in the war.

Speaking of M-4's a year or so ago they found one on a training range aboard Camp Lejeune. It had bogged apparently and was abandoned. No one could find any information about when it was lost and why it was just left. It was in a swampy overgrown area not far from a road but had been hidden for years. It was pulled out and was supposed to go to the new museum they are ( or did, cant remember if done) building here.

Cant remember if this was ever discussed on this board or not.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/3/2006 10:55:24 AM

Randy

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A few M3 Mediums were used in North Africa by the 1st Armored Division. Combat Command C under General Frdenhall
had a mixed force of M4s and M3s at Sidi Bou Zid on Feb. 14, 1943.

The first combat use of the M4 Medium by the Marine Corps was at Tarawa in November, 1943. The Marines had the challenge of having a ship to transport and land them. This was done by having Landing Craft Mediums pre-loaded with the tanks aboard the Landing Ship Dock "Ashland".

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/3/2006 12:47:12 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

I recently read a post on a different board where one individual insisted that the M-3 Medium was used by US Forces in the Pacific. In particular he states that 10-15 of them were shipped to the Phillipines prior to 7 Dec. Supposedly they were on the same ship that the M-3 GMC's were on. He went on to insist that the Marines used some M-3 Mediums in some of the earlier battles in the Pacific. He did not give any references to back up his statements.

I have never read anything about the use of the M-3 Lee in the Pacific, except that some of the Commonwealth Forces used Grant's and Lee's in Burma. These tanks were orginally supplied to the 8th Army in NA and then shipped to Burma when the Shermans replaced the Lee/Grant models. As far as I know the USMC never received any M-3 Mediums for anything to include training roles.

Any one have any info that might support this guy's statements?

Very quick search found this referance to them being used on Makin atoll in 1943:http://experts.about.com/e/m/m/M3_Lee.htm

Your friend must have been imparting knowledge in the very rear of his memory base, because the M3 GMC was not in the early Phillipines, the unit they had was it's predecessor, which was not called the M3 GMC.( It was technically the same animal, but had a different name, and the Japanese used them after they captured them.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/3/2006 1:25:22 PM

Dragoon 45

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Didn't say this guy was a friend, just someone making some questionable posts on a military history board. I had never seen anything to back up his claims, and thought them way out in left field. But I have been wrong before, and thought I would ask around here to see if he had something to his claims or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

I recently read a post on a different board where one individual insisted that the M-3 Medium was used by US Forces in the Pacific. In particular he states that 10-15 of them were shipped to the Phillipines prior to 7 Dec. Supposedly they were on the same ship that the M-3 GMC's were on. He went on to insist that the Marines used some M-3 Mediums in some of the earlier battles in the Pacific. He did not give any references to back up his statements.

I have never read anything about the use of the M-3 Lee in the Pacific, except that some of the Commonwealth Forces used Grant's and Lee's in Burma. These tanks were orginally supplied to the 8th Army in NA and then shipped to Burma when the Shermans replaced the Lee/Grant models. As far as I know the USMC never received any M-3 Mediums for anything to include training roles.

Any one have any info that might support this guy's statements?

Very quick search found this referance to them being used on Makin atoll in 1943:http://experts.about.com/e/m/m/M3_Lee.htm

Your friend must have been imparting knowledge in the very rear of his memory base, because the M3 GMC was not in the early Phillipines, the unit they had was it's predecessor, which was not called the M3 GMC.( It was technically the same animal, but had a different name, and the Japanese used them after they captured them.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 2:06:50 AM

KG Erwin

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Yeah, I'd read about this, too.�� I think that poster just got his info confused.��

Just to add further confusion, there were a number of older M2A4s deployed by the Marines on Guadalcanal, mostly by Company A/ 1st Tank Bn/ 1st Mar Div, but that's another story.

In any case, the Marines were NEVER issued any M3�Lees -- they went straight from the�Stuarts to the Shermans.�� The present SPWaW OOBs are pretty accurate in this regard. ��

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/4/2006 2:08:20 AM >

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 5:43:10 AM

panther_fan

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I don't think any of the M3 Grants got to the Phillipines before Pearl Harbor. Some self propelled 75s on half tracks got there just in time to be captured by the Japanese. I have seen WW2 footage of M3 tanks in the pacific and I believe that they were used in the Phillipines when the U.S. went back in to re-take the Phillipines. Keep in mind that the M3 outclassed anything the Japanese had and with it's complement of a 75mm, 37mm, and 30 cal machineguns would have been very effective against infantry.

It's hard to be exact on the footage since the History Channel and others frequently use any footage to illustrate an event, regardless where the footage was actually taken, but the background was definitely from the Pacific theatre and the troops were U.S..

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 6:39:15 AM

azraelck

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http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/tanks_medium/m3.html

Apparently, I was wrong. According to this there was a small number of M3 Mediums used in the Phillipines and the Makin Atoll by the USMC. And of course, they were used in greater numbers in the North African campaign, as well as Lend Lease units sent to the Soviet Union.

The M3 was a stopgap vehicle, made to fill a need while the M4 mediums were being designed. It was built by Chrysler (not to be confused with DaimlerChrysler, which is a wholly different company that rapes the name and heritage of the old Chrysler Corp...). The main engines used were the 30 cylinder Chrysler multibank; which was 5 Plymouth flathead sixes running off a common crankshaft. As anyone who knows about cars should know, the Plymouth flatheads were indestructible, and in automotive form put out an honest 70hp, 10 better than the flathead V8s of Ford fame. They were among the first to feature an integral oil pump, and other cooling and lubrication systems, which is why you couldn't kill one. You can buy a car now, running the original flathead without being overhauled, and they ended production in cars in 1959. Marine use was until 1972. It was replaced by the lighter-weight, equally indestructible slant sixes for the 1960 MY.

Main armament was a 75mm M2 or M3 gun mounted in the hull. Secondary was .30 MGs and a 37mm turret mounted gun. The 37mm had similar effectiveness to the Soviet 45mm ATG. Armor was too light by the standards of the time, however it was reliable and nimble, and served fairly well until the release of the M4 mediums. In April, 1944 it was classified as obsolete.

Variants include the M7 Priest, equipped with a 105mm howitzer.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 10:10:50 AM

Dragoon 45

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Azraelck,

I hate to say it but this website is kind of suspect. The 27th ID took Makin the same time the 2d Mar Div took Tarawa in Nov 43. The 6st Marine Regiment was the corps reserve and initially were planned to be used on Makin, but events overtook that and they were used instead on Tarawa. Gunny can correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know no Marines were involved in capturing Makin Island in Nov 43. The Marines landed on Makin with Carlson's Raiders early in 42 to raid the island, not capture it: but they were landed by submarine, so there is no way tanks were involved in that.

After going some more research, I have seen references to the M-3 Lees being used on Makin in Nov 43, by the 191st Tank Battalion of the 27th ID. I still haven't seen any creditable evidence of their use during the fall of the Phillipines. I have seen some documents that said some M-3 Stuarts were in the Phillipines prior to 7 Dec.

Evidently the guy did have some idea of what he was talking about as far as the Army using M-3 Lee's in the Pacific, i.e. Makin in 43. But I still have to wonder if he is confusing the M-3 Stuart with the M-3 Lee when saying they were used in the Phillipines during the Japanese invasion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/tanks_medium/m3.html

Apparently, I was wrong. According to this there was a small number of M3 Mediums used in the Phillipines and the Makin Atoll by the USMC. And of course, they were used in greater numbers in the North African campaign, as well as Lend Lease units sent to the Soviet Union.

The M3 was a stopgap vehicle, made to fill a need while the M4 mediums were being designed. It was built by Chrysler (not to be confused with DaimlerChrysler, which is a wholly different company that rapes the name and heritage of the old Chrysler Corp...). The main engines used were the 30 cylinder Chrysler multibank; which was 5 Plymouth flathead sixes running off a common crankshaft. As anyone who knows about cars should know, the Plymouth flatheads were indestructible, and in automotive form put out an honest 70hp, 10 better than the flathead V8s of Ford fame. They were among the first to feature an integral oil pump, and other cooling and lubrication systems, which is why you couldn't kill one. You can buy a car now, running the original flathead without being overhauled, and they ended production in cars in 1959. Marine use was until 1972. It was replaced by the lighter-weight, equally indestructible slant sixes for the 1960 MY.

Main armament was a 75mm M2 or M3 gun mounted in the hull. Secondary was .30 MGs and a 37mm turret mounted gun. The 37mm had similar effectiveness to the Soviet 45mm ATG. Armor was too light by the standards of the time, however it was reliable and nimble, and served fairly well until the release of the M4 mediums. In April, 1944 it was classified as obsolete.

Variants include the M7 Priest, equipped with a 105mm howitzer.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 5:10:13 PM

azraelck

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This wasn't the only site that I saw that mentioned M3 Lees in the Phillipines as well as Makin. It was just the only one I linked to. As to whether it is true or not, I don't know. Hard to tell, even if your going by history books. More than once, I've ran across history books about the period just prior t the civil war, that my own genelogical research has proven blatantly false. While the majority of sites list the M3 Mediums only at Makin (and in use by Commonwealth forces at Burma), only a few actually have the Phillipines listed as a place of use. I also have a copy of WWII magazine, which has a story about the first tank battle in the PTO, which was fought by M3 Stuarts.

Regardless, M3 mediums were used in the PTO, which makes my earlier post wrong.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 6:51:01 PM

264rifle

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Were any used in New Guinea

If so, it might be the site of combat footage in the Pacific thearter????????

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 7:28:45 PM

azraelck

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I have not found anything saying they were used in New Guinea. Burma, North Africa, the Phillipines, and Makin are the only places I've found that they were suppossed to have fought at. Of those, N. Africa and Burma I'm 100% sure of, and fairly sure of Makin.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/4/2006 11:07:55 PM

Twotribes

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Since an Army Division was used at Makin if they had Tanks they probably would have been M-3's or had the M-4 been in production long enough to replace even the hand me downs the Pacific got?

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/5/2006 12:45:01 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Since an Army Division was used at Makin if they had Tanks they probably would have been M-3's or had the M-4 been in production long enough to replace even the hand me downs the Pacific got?

I really think this was a case of replacement tanks not being available before the operation took place. The delivery of new equipment to the Pacific was spotty, anyway, as job number 1 was in getting the logistical base for Overlord set up in England.

Even at that, I have to marvel at what the United States was able to accomplish in supplying troops in two major wars at once.

This is something that is now taken for granted, but in the 1940s it was nothing short of an industrial miracle. It is no exaggeration to say that the US was a sleeping giant. Once we tapped our potential, a virtual flood of weapons/ships/tanks/aircraft came from our factories. The military/industrial complex was created at that time.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/5/2006 7:13:13 AM

azraelck

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Lets not forget, the australians stopepd production of their own homegrown tank, because the US was able to supply enough for them. Canada had the same situation; thay had thier own design, but stopped production because the US could supply enough. They also supplied the Soviet Union, Great Britain and other Commonwealth armies, as well as armed the entire Free French and Free Polish units the operated from Great Britain and took part in the war after their counties fell. All this, while maintaining supplies and equipment on two major wars at once. This, even now, is nothing short of phenomanol; as very few wars in US history since have been close to the scale as either the ETO or PTO alone. Before, or since, no nation has provided the majority of equipment for almost all of her allies, as well as maintained the largest or second largest force in a particular conflict simultaneously. The US pulled it off in WWII. Before or since, no one had ever even came close to showing that kind of industrial, economic, or physical (as in the manpower) strength.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/20/2006 7:44:29 PM

KG Erwin

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Bump this one back to the top. Here's part of the official US Army account of the Makin landing, which details the use of the M3 medium in the 193rd Tank Battalion : http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/makin/mak-taking.htm

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/20/2006 8:41:37 PM

Riun T

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Excellent article Gunny. RT

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 2:53:10 AM

Mark Ezra

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Additional comfirmation: http://historynet.com/wwii/blmakinatoll/index1.html

At 0830, LST-179 launched its amtracs with the initial assault wave on board. The first wave consisted of 16 amtracs, followed by the second and third waves of LCMs (landing craft, marine) carrying M-3 General Lee medium tanks. The fourth wave had two troop-carrying LCVPs and four LCMs with M-3 General Stuart light tanks. The next waves were of LCVPs carrying the rest of the 2nd Battalion.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 7:19:40 AM

Mark Ezra

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US Forces in Philippines on Dec 7th 1041:

Provisional Coastal Artillery (155mm) Battalion (Philippine Scouts)
59th Coastal Artillery (Harbor Defense) Regiment
60th Coastal Artillery (AA) Regiment
91st Coastal Artillery (Harbor Defense) Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
92nd Coastal Artillery (Harbor Defense) Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
200th Coastal Artillery (AA) Regiment New Mexico National Guard
Philippine Infantry Division
31st Infantry Regiment
43rd Infantry Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
45th Infantry Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
57th Infantry Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
23rd Field Artillery (2.95 Inch)(Pack) Regiment
24th Field Artillery (75mm)(Trk Drawn) Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
88th Field Artillery (75mm) Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
86th Field Artillery (155mm) Battalion (Philippine Scouts)
14th Engineer (Combat) Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
803rd Engineer (Aviation) Battalion
26th Cavalry (Horse) Regiment (Philippine Scouts)
1st Provisional Tank Group
192nd Tank (Light) Battalion
Co-A, Wisconsin National Guard, Co-B, Illinoise National Guard
Co-C, Ohio National Guard, Co-D, Kentucky National Guard
194th (2 Companies) Tank (Light) Battalion
Co-A, Minnesota National Guard, Co-C, California National Guard

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 10:46:29 AM

Twotribes

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Your list appears incomplete. I dont see the 4th Marine Regiment. And it would appear all the tank companies were light companies, doubt they had M-3 medium tanks in their TOE.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 4:18:43 PM

Mark Ezra

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Sorry about the Marines. The list is of US Army forces on Dec 7th and, of course, is composed by the US Navy...LOL...here's the link
http://www.navsource.org/Naval/usarmy.htm

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 4:26:15 PM

Mark Ezra

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There is a very nice article about the boys of Co C 194th Tank Battalion (light)
It makes note of the M3 Stuart and M3 GMC but no mention of Medium tanks of any kind. It is a short, good read and has a couple of interesting small unit actions that might make a good scen. http://www.militarymuseum.org/Bataan.html

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 9:00:58 PM

h_h_lightcap

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Mark,

Nice Firesign reference in your signature!!!! dont forget we are all bozos on this bus!!

Deputy Dan es su amigo.

HH

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/23/2006 9:02:10 PM

Twotribes

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Thanks I may play a PI campaign as American units. Why are the PI Scouts listed under American units though? Are they Filipino or American troops?

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/24/2006 12:29:00 AM

Mark Ezra

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h_h_lightcap: My God it has finally happened!! You are the very first to get the signature...LOL..are you sure you're not Nick Danger??

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/24/2006 12:32:31 AM

Mark Ezra

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Twotribes: PI Scouts were Filipino under US command.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/24/2006 1:09:11 AM

FlashfyreSP

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The Philippine Scouts were Philippine soldiers commanded by US Army officers. They have often been referred to as America's "colonial troops", but this is inaccurate. They were formed early in the Philippine Occupation after the Spanish-American War, and after WW1 were inducted into the US Army Forces.

For more info, see: Philippine Scouts

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/24/2006 1:45:18 AM

Twotribes

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Why are the PI Scouts included in the PI OOB if infact they were under command and control of the US Army? I guess it is easier and I note you gave them the 10 percent boost. I will agree it would be confusing to have them in the American OOB. But not knowing they were actually part of the US Army is confusing also.

Next question? Did the Scouts Regiments/Battalions have weapons companies and attached support units like AA and AT guns, as well as Artillery?

Another question? How do I go about using the campaign game to play a PI scenario? Do I have to make my own? PI is not one of the countries in long campaign obviously and when I pick them as a generated one if I dont pick jungle as terrain the time frame gives me snow.

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RE: M-3 Medium Tank use in the Pacific - 7/24/2006 2:02:30 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Why are the PI Scouts included in the PI OOB if infact they were under command and control of the US Army? I guess it is easier and I note you gave them the 10 percent boost. I will agree it would be confusing to have them in the American OOB. But not knowing they were actually part of the US Army is confusing also.

Next question? Did the Scouts Regiments/Battalions have weapons companies and attached support units like AA and AT guns, as well as Artillery?

Another question? How do I go about using the campaign game to play a PI scenario? Do I have to make my own? PI is not one of the countries in long campaign obviously and when I pick them as a generated one if I dont pick jungle as terrain the time frame gives me snow.

Well, there is no room in the US OOB for the PS units. And while they were in fact part of the US Army, they were not allowed to be deployed outside the Philippine Islands. Also, some of their officers and NCOs were Filipinos as well. There force structure was comparable to the US light infantry forces, with limted support weapons. 30cal MGs, 37mm ATGs, mortars, light field artillery (horse-drawn), and horse cavalry.

To use them in the generated WWII campaign, you'll need to start as US, then change nations in the Purchase screen to PI and buy your core. You'll "seem" to be playing US, as the flags and everything will reflect that, but you can run it with all PI forces.

< Message edited by FlashfyreSP -- 7/24/2006 2:03:20 AM >

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