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Weather - 7/5/2006 8:50:27 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Into every life a little rain must fall. Or waterfalls from the apartment above.

In keeping with the theme of my life this week, here are some samples of the weather depictions.

The hexes to the west are experiencing rain while those to the east have storms. The weather at sea is storm.

Thepurpose of this screen shot is to show how different terrain looks with rain versus storm: clear, forest, and mountain.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
Post #: 1
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 8:53:02 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		This one shows the difference between rain and storm at sea and some rain in the swamp.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 2
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 8:55:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Similar to the first showing rain versus storm against different terrain types. The desert here has clear weather (of course). The swamp has storm.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 3
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 8:59:51 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Western Poland have snow while esatern Poland has blizzard. This contrasts the two against clear, forest, and mountain.

The units will sit on top of these and not be obscured at all. Notice that the icons and names also sit on top of the weather. So do the railroads.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 4
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 9:03:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The only blizzard hexes here are the mountains east of Sacromento and those even farther east around Salt Lake City. The Great Salt Lake itself has a blizzard in progress.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 5
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 9:10:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Oops, I should have noted on the previous screen shot that some of those forest hexes have blizzard too - and so is Salt Lake City.

Last in the series.

Here we see a mixture of storm, snow and blizzard. The desert (barely visible) and desert mountain hexes have rain. Lahore has snow but the hexes southeast of it have storm which continues up into the moutains. Some of the mountains have storm, some, snow, and some blizzard.

Kabul - snow.
Peshawar - blizzard.
Rawaplindi - snow.

As you pass the cursor over a hex, a small section of the main screen gives a text description of the weather (if you are uncertain).




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 6
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 9:46:55 AM   
amwild

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Speaking for myself, it's sort of hard to tell rain from storm, and snow from blizzard, especially at lower zoom levels.

If I could suggest that rain and snow also be given extra space between the diagonal lines, the line thickness and length differences would be easier to see without having to mouse-over the hexes.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 7
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 9:47:02 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Hello,

Bizarely, the screenshots of Rain & Storm are on a zoom level, and the Snow & Blizzard on another zoom level.
I like a lot the Snow & Blizzard effects, I like less the Rain & Storm for the moment.
It would be good to see all weather effects at the same zoom level, wouldn't it ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 8
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 11:12:02 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		I'm finding it hard to differentiate. Perhaps you could use shapes such as little rain drops or flakes at various densities to provide another cue? Lightning bolts?

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 9
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 11:27:49 AM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		I also find it hard to differentiate the different weather types. I know that the weather is not clear, but it's hard to guess
kind of weather is inside the hex.

Maybe it could be a good idea to change the hatch angle.

Rain ands snow could have hatch angle 45 degrees. Storm and blizzard could have hatch angle of 135 degrees.

For me it's difficult to see the difference between rain and snow. I notice that the snow hatch pattern is slightly lighter. But it's
not intuitive.

I support the idea of adding some extra info in the hex with bad weather that would give a clue of the true weather in the hex.
Maybe keeping the hatch patterns as is, but to add one small symbol into each hex. Some raindrops for rain, snowflakes for
snow, lightning for storm, and something for blizzard. That could help very much.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 10
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 12:02:07 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I support the idea of adding some extra info in the hex with bad weather that would give a clue of the true weather in the hex.
Maybe keeping the hatch patterns as is, but to add one small symbol into each hex. Some raindrops for rain, snowflakes for
snow, lightning for storm, and something for blizzard. That could help very much.


The man is clearly a genius. Almost my words exactly.

Cheers, Neilster


< Message edited by Neilster -- 7/5/2006 10:23:48 PM >

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 11
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 10:09:08 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		They seem to be a little hard to distinguish even at 1680x1050 resolution. maybe a little looser on the spacing. Also what do counters look like underneath the weather. Are they hard to distinguish/read etc... Could you post a pic with weather and units?

_____________________________

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Post #: 12
RE: Weather - 7/5/2006 10:39:24 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

They seem to be a little hard to distinguish even at 1680x1050 resolution. maybe a little looser on the spacing. Also what do counters look like underneath the weather. Are they hard to distinguish/read etc... Could you post a pic with weather and units?

Units are on top of weather so their depiction isn't affected.

For my next pass on this:

- I'll make rain and snow come in from the upper left and keep storm and blizzard from the upper right.

- Rob has sent me heavier versions of storm and blizzard but they seem too overpowering. I'll have him reduce the density of all the images by 50% and make the lines for rain and snow slightly thicker. This should solve the problem I am having at different resolutions where I am losing a lot of the lines because they are only 1 pixel wide.

- I do not want to use raindrops and snowflakes because they are out of keeping with the rest of the terrain graphics - which are rather abstract (cities, forests, mountains, swamps) and rely on color and texture to communicate.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 13
RE: Weather - 7/6/2006 12:31:08 AM   
morkin

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		I would propose that rain comes up-down, storm left-right, blizzard right-left and snow to be white dots.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 14
RE: Weather - 7/6/2006 2:07:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morkin

I would propose that rain comes up-down, storm left-right, blizzard right-left and snow to be white dots.

Another possibility. Thanks.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to morkin)
Post #: 15
RE: Weather - 7/6/2006 4:08:15 AM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline 		Another vote for an angle change.

milder weather might come from milder angles closer to 0 degrees.

Say rain came from 30, storm from 150, snow from 210, and blizzard 330?

Perhaps easier to intuit the weather type?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 16
RE: Weather - 7/6/2006 8:03:46 AM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: morkin

I would propose that rain comes up-down, storm left-right, blizzard right-left and snow to be white dots.

Another possibility. Thanks.


I think this a a brilliant suggestion

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 17
RE: Weather - 7/8/2006 5:30:30 AM   
trees trees

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Manistee, MI
Status: offline 		I really liked Froonp's suggestion a week or two back to change the terrain when required by the weather, i.e. swamp>forest in winter, desert>remain clear in rain, frozen lakes, etc. Especially so for desert, it is always easy to forget how weather is handled there.

also it would be nice to just have an option of a small graphic bar showing the weather in the zones: Arctic=Blizzard; N. Temperate-Snow; Med-Rain, etc. without changing the hex overlays. if you've played WiF you're more used to it of course and the overlays could be a choice to use or not.

oh, and it is important to know the weather _In The Sea Box_ in sea zones where the weather line is running through the zone, not on the sea zone boundary. this could be a little confusing for new players.

< Message edited by trees trees -- 7/8/2006 5:32:27 AM >

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 18
RE: Weather - 7/8/2006 9:33:32 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

I really liked Froonp's suggestion a week or two back to change the terrain when required by the weather, i.e. swamp>forest in winter, desert>remain clear in rain, frozen lakes, etc. Especially so for desert, it is always easy to forget how weather is handled there.


My proposal was also to have new graphics for each terrain. For example, to have a snow covered land for the clear terrain under snow, with patches of terrain not covered by snow.
I think this would very beautifull to have the map covered by snow when winter comes.

Also, as the map is an abstract view from above, this would be more logical to have the ground covered by patches of white when snow falls, and more even white when blizzard is blowing.

Also, showing the change of terrain cover (swamp --> forest) seems to me quite mandatory, because new players won't know this happens. Showing them that this happens by changing the graphic would be a good thing. Well, that forest need to have patches of white snow too, because it is winter.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 19
RE: Weather - 7/8/2006 1:38:53 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Yes. I think changing hexes according to the weather is an appropriate application of computer power. The weather is easy to overlook without visual cues and it's vital to the game.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 20
RE: Weather - 7/8/2006 10:03:05 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		In response to the last few posts.

Changing the terrain when the weather changes isn't really possible. The bitmaps for the coastal hexes are generated through preprocessing. They all exist before the program is loaded. To transfer that preprocessing task to the game itself, to be done on-the-fly as the map is generated, would require too many CPU cycles. That is, the screen refresh would take too loooooong. For a mere cosmetic effect, I do not want to adversely impact screen the refresh rate.

The small graphics bar that indicates the weather in each weather zones is a great idea. Displaying it would be optional, of course. This would supplement the global map's presentation of weather throughout the world.

I believe each sea area has only 1 weather zone - no multiple weather zones within a sea area.



_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 21
RE: Weather - 7/9/2006 6:10:18 PM   
trees trees

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Manistee, MI
Status: offline 		I think there are at least two with multiple weather zones...the Baltic and the South China sea. As long as the sea-boxes fall on the same side of the line as they do in WiFFe, things will work out fine. But it does get confusing in Indonesia when the naval units are in one weather type, trying to do something to a land hex in another weather type. I'm thinking more about the new players, perhaps a special 'help' pop-up menu could be used in these two zones.


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 22
RE: Weather - 7/10/2006 12:27:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
I think there are at least two with multiple weather zones...the Baltic and the South China sea. As long as the sea-boxes fall on the same side of the line as they do in WiFFe, things will work out fine. But it does get confusing in Indonesia when the naval units are in one weather type, trying to do something to a land hex in another weather type. I'm thinking more about the new players, perhaps a special 'help' pop-up menu could be used in these two zones.

Thanks for the insight. I will have to think about this for a bit.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 23
RE: Weather - 7/10/2006 6:41:03 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
oh, and it is important to know the weather _In The Sea Box_ in sea zones where the weather line is running through the zone, not on the sea zone boundary. this could be a little confusing for new players.


There is one type of weather per Sea area. Weather lines should not run through Sea areas.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the RaW (final edition)

8.1 Weather zones

The weather zones are marked on the map. They are:
1. The Arctic zone
2. The north temperate zone
3. The south temperate zone
4. The Mediterranean zone
5. The north monsoon zone
6. The south monsoon zone

A hex is in the weather zone it lies in. A sea area is in the weather zone
its sea-box lies in. The Baltic Sea is in the north temperate zone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:

Sea actions are effected by the weather in the sea area. Shore bombardment of land hexes is effected by the weather in the Sea area not the hex being bombarded.

Air Actions are effected by the weather in the Sea area/Hex the aircraft are flying to.

Land actions are effected by the weather that the Hex is in.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 7/10/2006 7:08:10 AM >

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 24
RE: Weather - 7/10/2006 6:56:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
oh, and it is important to know the weather _In The Sea Box_ in sea zones where the weather line is running through the zone, not on the sea zone boundary. this could be a little confusing for new players.


There is one type of weather per Sea area. Weather lines should not run through Sea areas.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the RaW (final edition)

8.1 Weather zones

The weather zones are marked on the map. They are:
1. The Arctic zone
2. The north temperate zone
3. The south temperate zone
4. The Mediterranean zone
5. The north monsoon zone
6. The south monsoon zone

A hex is in the weather zone it lies in. A sea area is in the weather zone
its sea-box lies in. The Baltic Sea is in the north temperate zone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok, I investigated this a little bit. MWIF doesn't draw the weather zone lines through the sea areas. Instead it draws a lot more lines so as to differentiate the weather zones for the sea area from those of the adjacent coastal hexes. So, the all sea hexes in the Baltic are North Temperate, but the coastal hexes vary between NT and Arctic. The weather zone lines make this pretty clear and placing a cursor on a hex eliminates all confusion (or by toggling on the weather zone indicators for each hex).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 25
RE: Weather - 7/10/2006 7:08:34 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		See my edited post above.

You could fly an air mission from a weather zone that is in blizard if the weather zone you were flying to was not blizard.

You could Shore bombard a land hex that the weather was storm and the Sea area weather was fine with no ill effects.

Etc.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 7/10/2006 7:26:50 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 26
RE: Weather - 7/10/2006 7:00:08 PM   
trees trees

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Manistee, MI
Status: offline 		actually the weather overlays will help a great deal in keeping track of what's happening in the South China Sea in which Monsoon zone. learning the nuances of the South Monsoon zone is an important skill for the Japanese player especially; and is something that should be mentioned in the docs, preferably in connection with the Guadalcanal scenario that most people use to learn the naval systems.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 27
RE: Weather - 7/10/2006 7:04:18 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
You could fly an air mission from a weather zone that is in blizard if the weather zone you were flying to was not blizard.

Right.

quote:

You could Shore bombard a land hex that the weather was storm and the Sea area weather was fine with no ill effects.

Wrong. Storm in the land hex precludes the shore bombardement, the weather in the sea zone is irrelevant.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 28
RE: Weather - 12/7/2006 11:49:06 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Its been a while but here are the revised graphics for the weather. These can be toggled on and off, though I intend for them to be used as 'on'. To that end, the icons, rail lines, names, and units appear on top of the weather, as you can see here.

This screen shot shows snow and blizzard. The weather overlays hold up very well at all levels of zoom (they do not get distorted).




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_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 29
RE: Weather - 12/7/2006 11:51:03 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here are snow and blizzard again, plus fine and storm (over the ocean).




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_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 30
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