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Alpine hexisides - 6/14/2006 6:58:05 PM

Zorachus99

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I don't remember anything about ski units being able to cross alpine hexsides. Am I wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Only ski and mountain units can cross them.

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Post #: 631

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/14/2006 7:07:28 PM

CBoehm

Posts: 113
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From: Aarhus, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

I don't remember anything about ski units being able to cross alpine hexsides. Am I wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Only ski and mountain units can cross them.

Must be a MWIF or CWIF thing...certainly not RAW AFAIK ...

(in reply to Zorachus99)

Post #: 632

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/14/2006 7:27:58 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

I don't remember anything about ski units being able to cross alpine hexsides. Am I wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Only ski and mountain units can cross them.

You're right.

I have a tendency to write things from memory, which is ok most of the time. But when it comes to the rules, with their innumerable changes over the last 20 years, I have, on more than one occasion, gotten them wrong. When I write code I am more diligent. And then there are the beta testers who are tasked to find those kinds of mistakes - if and when they occur. [It's nice to see that people read all this stuff with a critical eye.]

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 633

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/15/2006 5:25:01 AM

Manic Inertia

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Well bugger me - surely that's an oversight in RAW? If MTN can cross Alpine hexsides, it seems absurd that SKI can't... even I don't suppose Finnish Ski troops did much mountain climbing at home, but would there've been much difference between a Norwegian Ski Division and a Norwegian Mountain Division?

Maybe Norwegian/Swedish Ski units in MWiF can be designated as MTN units with the 'Ski' symbol to one side? Hehe then I suppose Norwegian/Swedish MTN corps would need to be given Skis as well, and then what about all the other MTN units in the game .. they all had Skis...

Perhaps I should just pipe down...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 634

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/16/2006 6:18:42 AM

Zorachus99

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From: Palo Alto, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Well bugger me - surely that's an oversight in RAW? If MTN can cross Alpine hexsides, it seems absurd that SKI can't...�even I don't suppose Finnish Ski troops did much mountain climbing at home, but would there've been much difference between a Norwegian Ski Division and a Norwegian Mountain Division?

Maybe�Norwegian/Swedish Ski units in MWiF can be designated as MTN units with the 'Ski' symbol to one side? Hehe then I suppose Norwegian/Swedish MTN corps would need to be given Skis as well, and then what about all the other MTN units in the game .. they all had Skis...

Perhaps I should just pipe down...

No... Actually this is a good question. Now if my addled brain remembers correctly if you use the 2d10 combat optional rules, both ski and mountain units get a bonus attacking in snow. Secondarily the ski units cannot cross alpine hexsides but they have nice features such as ignoring ZOC in snow and blizzard.

I like this because mountain units tend not to be ski units, but handle cold (mountain air) very well and are equipped for cold. Ski units are not specifically used for mountain combat, but instead were used to move much more freely than other units in snow.

What the Finns managed to do to the Russians in the winter of 1939/1940 was nothing less than amazing, and without the ski units mobility to attack soviet supply lines, things would have been much worse for those who lived in Helsinki.

Whether it was the Finns defending successfully at 10:1 odds, or Rommel managing to attack successfully at 1:10 odds, supply and mobility end up being crucial...

....

Shannon have the ZOC special cases been worked out yet?

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Post #: 635

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/16/2006 7:29:17 AM

Manic Inertia

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I guess I was thinking primarily about the '40 Norwegian campaign .. the French 'Demi-brigade' that was sent over to help was an 'Alpine' unit that was equipped with skis. So how was it different to a SKI Div in WiF parlance?

Pedantic as it no doubt sounds, at least some MTN units would've been indistinguishable from 'SKI' units, wouldn't they? Or maybe (I'm going to guess) the emphasis with Ski units was on mobility at the expense of, say, artillery, whereas MTN units would've invariably packed a bit of heavy ordnance...

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Post #: 636

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/16/2006 7:35:49 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
No... Actually this is a good question. Now if my addled brain remembers correctly if you use the 2d10 combat optional rules, both ski and mountain units get a bonus attacking in snow. Secondarily the ski units cannot cross alpine hexsides but they have nice features such as ignoring ZOC in snow and blizzard.

I like this because mountain units tend not to be ski units, but handle cold (mountain air) very well and are equipped for cold. Ski units are not specifically used for mountain combat, but instead were used to move much more freely than other units in snow.

What the Finns managed to do to the Russians in the winter of 1939/1940 was nothing less than amazing, and without the ski units mobility to attack soviet supply lines, things would have been much worse for those who lived in Helsinki.

Whether it was the Finns defending successfully at 10:1 odds, or Rommel managing to attack successfully at 1:10 odds, supply and mobility end up being crucial...

....

Shannon have the ZOC special cases been worked out yet?

MWIF will follow RAW 7 on this. I have not examined the code I inherited (CWIF) on this point so I do not know one way or the other. Eventually the beta testers will go over everything.

Recently I have finished with the high resolution bitmaps for the unit counters (there are over 2400) and I am now working my way through making improvements to the interface and bringing in the NetPlay (Internet communications) code that Dan Hatchen has written.

I want to redo the central game engine, but I have only laid the foundation for that major undertaking. Once the new game engine is in place, I will be able to answer questions such as the one you posed quickly and knowledgably.

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Post #: 637

RE: Alpine hexisides - 6/16/2006 7:46:54 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Well bugger me - surely that's an oversight in RAW? If MTN can cross Alpine hexsides, it seems absurd that SKI can't...�even I don't suppose Finnish Ski troops did much mountain climbing at home, but would there've been much difference between a Norwegian Ski Division and a Norwegian Mountain Division?

Maybe�Norwegian/Swedish Ski units in MWiF can be designated as MTN units with the 'Ski' symbol to one side? Hehe then I suppose Norwegian/Swedish MTN corps would need to be given Skis as well, and then what about all the other MTN units in the game .. they all had Skis...

Perhaps I should just pipe down...

I think mountain units were generally equipped and trained for the alpine climbing that would typically be involved in alpine crossings. I do agree that there would seem to be some cross-over though, especially for ski troops from mountainous countries.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 6/16/2006 7:48:25 AM >

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Post #: 638

Weather effects - 6/26/2006 10:33:40 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Hello,

About the weather effect on the MWiF map, I don't remember what the design decision is.
Will it be an overlay to the existing graphic, or will it be new graphics ?

I though about this last night, and thought that a new graphics for each terrain for each weather effect would be great.
I also thought that it could even allow to make visible the changes that the weather sometimes makes to terrain, such as the Swamp becoming forest under Snow & Blizzard weather.

The Snowy graphics would be basically the same as the normal ones, with patches of white added.
The Blizzard graphics would be the same as snow, with even more white added.
The Rainy graphics would be the same as the normal ones, with patches of brown showing mud. I'm not an artist, mud is all I could think about when thinking about rain. Maybe another grahic effect can give a better impression about the Rain effect.
The Blizzard graphics would be the same as Rain, with even more brown.

The Snowy Swamp graphic could be a mix between the forest (for the treecover) and a little of the swamp (for the water density) with patches of white added (for the snow), thus showing that the swamps in Snow or Blizzard are treated as forests.

The Snowy or Rainy Desert Graphic would be exactly the same as the desert graphic, thus showing the effects of rain & snow weather in desert hexes, that is : no effect.
The Blizzard or Storm Desert Graphic would be the same as it would be if it was a non desert hex with snow or rain only, that is less white.

The Lakes hexes and hexsides could also change color when they freeze, being white with cracks on them to show they are frozen.

Same for example for Frozen ports. The Sea could get white around them, with cracks as in ice, to even better show that the ports are unusable because they are Frozen.

Well, the computer allow for lots of variations about the effects.

The weather effects could also be some sort of animated transparent layer added on the top of the normal map graphics, showing falling rain, or falling snow, lightly or severely falling to differenciate between rain & storm and snow & blizzard.

There could also be a sound effects for the weather, accompanying the game, rain dropping, wind howling, snow falling, gusts of blizzard blowing... Those sound effects would be on top of the normal game sounds & music.

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Post #: 639

RE: Weather effects - 6/27/2006 12:21:01 AM

trees trees

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From: Manistee, MI
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the only idea I had would be to put a little weather icon of some sort near each seabox, like a sun for Fine, a rain cloud for Rain, a lightning bolt for Storm, etc., rather than redrawing the ocean completely. it is always easy to forget the weather in a sea zone when playing the cardboard game.

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Post #: 640

RE: Weather effects - 6/27/2006 12:40:10 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Hello,

About the weather effect on the MWiF map, I don't remember what the design decision is.
Will it be an overlay to the existing graphic, or will it be new graphics ?

I though about this last night, and thought that a new graphics for each terrain for each weather effect would be great.
I also thought that it could even allow to make visible the changes that the weather sometimes makes to terrain, such as the Swamp becoming forest under Snow & Blizzard weather.

The Snowy graphics would be basically the same as the normal ones, with patches of white added.
The Blizzard graphics would be the same as snow, with even more white added.
The Rainy graphics would be the same as the normal ones, with patches of brown showing mud. I'm not an artist, mud is all I could think about when thinking about rain. Maybe another grahic effect can give a better impression about the Rain effect.
The Blizzard graphics would be the same as Rain, with even more brown.

The Snowy Swamp graphic could be a mix between the forest (for the treecover) and a little of the swamp (for the water density) with patches of white added (for the snow), thus showing that the swamps in Snow or Blizzard are treated as forests.

The Snowy or Rainy Desert Graphic would be exactly the same as the desert graphic, thus showing the effects of rain & snow weather in desert hexes, that is : no effect.
The Blizzard or Storm Desert Graphic would be the same as it would be if it was a non desert hex with snow or rain only, that is less white.

The Lakes hexes and hexsides could also change color when they freeze, being white with cracks on them to show they are frozen.

Same for example for Frozen ports. The Sea could get white around them, with cracks as in ice, to even better show that the ports are unusable because they are Frozen.

Well, the computer allow for lots of variations about the effects.

The weather effects could also be some sort of animated transparent layer added on the top of the normal map graphics, showing falling rain, or falling snow, lightly or severely falling to differenciate between rain & storm and snow & blizzard.

There could also be a sound effects for the weather, accompanying the game, rain dropping, wind howling, snow falling, gusts of blizzard blowing... Those sound effects would be on top of the normal game sounds & music.

Yeah, well ...

"Transparent overlay/layer - not animated" is where I am at present. Animation gets old after about 17 seconds. Diagonal black and white dashed lines are what I am going for with density showing intensity. These will overlie the terrain (including icons) but not the units. There is enough of the hex showing around the unit for the player to see the weather and putting the weather over the unit would make them too hard to read.

I like turning the swamp into forest (visually) but I am not so sure about changing the water into ice. There are technical difficulties to overcome for the latter. Your ideas on the effect of weather in the desert seem good to me at first glance, but I want to think about it some more.

I think the easiest/simplest is best for the ocean/sea hexes - use the same weather overlays as on land.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 641

RE: Weather effects - 6/27/2006 5:32:22 PM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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Some sea zones visually straddle a couple weather boundaries, but actually only "belong" to one or the other.

Instead of putting dotted or dashed lines to indicate the weather in each sea hex, maybe just a single weather indicator for that sea zone, near the search boxes:

That is supposed to be a cloud/man blowing wind... err, well, anyway.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by mlees -- 6/27/2006 5:33:37 PM >

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Post #: 642

RE: Weather effects - 6/27/2006 9:46:01 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees
Some sea zones visually straddle a couple weather boundaries, but actually only "belong" to one or the other.

Instead of putting dotted or dashed lines to indicate the weather in each sea hex, maybe just a single weather indicator for that sea zone, near the search boxes:

That is supposed to be a cloud/man blowing wind... err, well, anyway.

Let me try it my way first, since that will be the easiest to code. If it presents problems, then we'll look at alternatives. Could you give me an example of a sea area I should be concerned about?

Rob sent me bitmaps for the weather overlays today and I asked him for some minor revisions. I should have them available for your review in the next couple of days.

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Post #: 643

RE: Weather effects - 6/27/2006 10:40:45 PM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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Sorry. Looking over my game maps, I notice that there aren't sea zones with mulitple weather zones in them (at least not in CWiF).

Sigh.

Let me try to wiggle out of this:

Take the South China Sea. Part of North Monsoon weather area.

However, portions of southern Borneo, south eastern Sumatra, and a couple unamed islands (hexes 121,136 and 123,139) which lie within that sea, are part of the South Monsoon sea zone.

While the CWiF engine was able to display (with the weather button) and account for the weather properly (for aircraft missions and land combat), I did not use it properly, and for that reason I assumed that the sea area was "straddling" multiple weather zones. I apologise for the confusion.

Another example are the islands of the Marshalls and Caroline groups (both considered North Monsoon) that lie completely within "The Solomons" sea area, while the sea area itself is South Monsoon.

However, I see that this is all my problem in not using the weather overlay feature enough, and leaving it on "Terrain" setting. WAD/Operator Error.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 644

RE: Weather effects - 6/27/2006 11:57:52 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees
Sorry. Looking over my game maps, I notice that there aren't sea zones with mulitple weather zones in them (at least not in CWiF). Sigh.

Let me try to wiggle out of this:

Take the South China Sea. Part of North Monsoon weather area.

However, portions of southern Borneo, south eastern Sumatra, and a couple unamed islands (hexes 121,136 and 123,139) which lie within that sea, are part of the South Monsoon sea zone.

While the CWiF engine was able to display (with the weather button) and account for the weather properly (for aircraft missions and land combat), I did not use it properly, and for that reason I assumed that the sea area was "straddling" multiple weather zones. I apologise for the confusion.

Another example are the islands of the Marshalls and Caroline groups (both considered North Monsoon) that lie completely within "The Solomons" sea area, while the sea area itself is South Monsoon.

However, I see that this is all my problem in not using the weather overlay feature enough, and leaving it on "Terrain" setting. WAD/Operator Error.

No sweat. I love it when problems disappear of their own accord. I make real nasty faces at some problems and they still won't go away.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 645

RE: Weather effects - 6/28/2006 1:06:28 PM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

That is supposed to be a cloud/man blowing wind... err, well, anyway.

Nonsense! It's a rocket powered apple. Is this covered in the V-weapons optional rule?

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 646

RE: Weather effects - 6/28/2006 9:30:04 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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quote:

Is this covered in the V-weapons optional rule?

You mean "Fruits in Flames"? I think so... But that was in a back issue of "Wargammers gone Wild", vol 7, issue 43, I think, and I dont have it. Check Ebay...

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Post #: 647

RE: Weather effects - 6/29/2006 8:37:39 AM

Klingon

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"Fruits in Flames"... wow, there's a whole realm of possibilities there I'm NOT going to even approach.

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Post #: 648

RE: Weather effects - 6/30/2006 3:27:56 AM

Manic Inertia

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I will, despite my limited vocabulary ...

"Fruits in Flames - The Fall of Rohm"?

"Fruits In Flames - Montgomery's Desert Thrusts"?

any more out there?

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Post #: 649

RE: Weather effects - 7/6/2006 6:56:24 PM

lordzyplon

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i agree that the weather boundaries need to be redefined-something that stands out LIKE hot pink, but not it....

also, the Baltic Sea straddles 2 weather zones. it specifically mentions�this in the WiF final edition rulebook.
8.1 weather zones
...
The Baltic sea is in the North temperate zone.

< Message edited by lordzyplon -- 7/6/2006 6:58:35 PM >

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Post #: 650

RE: Weather effects - 7/6/2006 8:08:49 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lordzyplon

i agree that the weather boundaries need to be redefined-something that stands out LIKE hot pink, but not it....

also, the Baltic Sea straddles 2 weather zones. it specifically mentions�this in the WiF final edition rulebook.
8.1 weather zones
...
The Baltic sea is in the North temperate zone.

Once I get the weather depiction settled, I'll look at weather zone depiction.

The game currently has a toggle that will label each hex as to which weather zone it is in. There are also boundaries lines drawn on the map (always shown).

In CWIF all of this was complicated by the river, canal, lake, and coastal boundaries also being drawn along hexsides. MWIF did away with those leaving only 3 hexside boundaries to worry about: country, sea area, and weather zones. So, the color variations needed are fewer. On the other hand, the terrain patterns are much more "interesting/busy" so the colors chosen need to be strong enough to stand out against those backgrounds.

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Post #: 651

RE: Weather effects - 7/8/2006 5:44:11 AM

trees trees

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the dots in the weather line on WiFFe maps help a lot. in general I would like thicker lines and bigger 'icons' ... resource hexes, etc.

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Post #: 652

RE: Weather effects - 7/8/2006 9:36:14 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

the dots in the weather line on WiFFe maps help a lot.

He's true, now he says it, I think he's right.

quote:

in general I would like thicker lines and bigger 'icons' ... resource hexes, etc.

Same for me, even if the icons are sometime overlaping, it's no problem. Now Tree Tree says it, I also think as him.

(in reply to trees trees)

Post #: 653

RE: Weather effects - 7/8/2006 1:42:16 PM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lordzyplon

i agree that the weather boundaries need to be redefined-something that stands out LIKE hot pink, but not it....

also, the Baltic Sea straddles 2 weather zones. it specifically mentions�this in the WiF final edition rulebook.
8.1 weather zones
...
The Baltic sea is in the North temperate zone.

Another new recruit. Welcome!

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to lordzyplon)

Post #: 654

RE: Weather effects - 7/8/2006 10:28:24 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
the dots in the weather line on WiFFe maps help a lot. in general I would like thicker lines and bigger 'icons' ... resource hexes, etc.

Dots are a nice solution for how to show weather boundaries. That way I can keep the country boundaries red and the sea area boundaries dark blue. Perhaps small, light colored dots for the weather boundaries (pink, yellow, ?). They should stand out against the red and dark blue because they sometimes overlay the other boundaries. Nothing too forceful though, a muted presence would be best.

Larger icons for resources and factories would be nice but in some crowded hexes there simply isn't room. I had trouble as it is with Liverpool, Manchester, Coventry, Hamburg, Hannover, and Metz (to name but a few).

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 655

RE: Weather effects - 7/9/2006 10:23:57 AM

Froonp

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quote:

Larger icons for resources and factories would be nice but in some crowded hexes there simply isn't room. I had trouble as it is with Liverpool, Manchester, Coventry, Hamburg, Hannover, and Metz (to name but a few).

For me it is not a problem if the icons overlap with each other in a handfull of hexes, if each one is visible, this is ok. Just make sure the rail & the names are written above the icons, and it should be OK, shouldn't it ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 656

RE: Weather effects - 7/9/2006 12:14:28 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Larger icons for resources and factories would be nice but in some crowded hexes there simply isn't room. I had trouble as it is with Liverpool, Manchester, Coventry, Hamburg, Hannover, and Metz (to name but a few).

For me it is not a problem if the icons overlap with each other in a handfull of hexes, if each one is visible, this is ok. Just make sure the rail & the names are written above the icons, and it should be OK, shouldn't it ?

Icons for cities and ports are on top of the rail lines for pretty obvious reasons - see the screen shot attached. The names are on top of that though I went to a lot of effort to keep them from overlaying the icons.

While some of the icons might be increased there is a balance to maintain here. Proportions between the different icons shouldn't be too large. These hexes are very crowded. Making the icons larger and then squeezing everything in with no "white space" between objects that occupy the same hex would emphasize the congestion even more.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 657

RE: Weather effects - 7/9/2006 12:23:08 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here's another group of hexes that were a problem. Metz just barely fits and I still have the new fortifications to try to work in.

I ended up putting Dresden's and Strasbourg's names so they aren't even in their city's hex. I am also still unhappy about the clutter in Cologne, Hannover, and Hamburg even after spending a lot of time trying dozens of different ways to position the items within those hexes.

Attachment (1)

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 658

RE: Icons - 7/9/2006 2:07:04 PM

Neilster

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I think it looks fine as it is and we'll rapidly get used to the icons anyway.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 659

RE: Icons - 7/9/2006 6:29:17 PM

trees trees

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From: Manistee, MI
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I mentioned in the Hawaii thread about placing the port symbols on the sea boundaries when possible. True if you play WiF a lot you finally get used to the rule about which ports connect to which zones, Batavia being one of the most confusing examples. But the above graphic of Liverpool is a good illustration of why the sea zone should be drawn to bi-sect the port symbol. Many new players would look at that and think Liverpool is connected to the Bay of Biscay zone but not directly to the Faeroes Gap zone. The computer would do the movement right of course, but it's not as clearly intuitive the way it is drawn now. This game is already going to frustrate a lot of newcomers and anything to make things clearer will help.

Maybe where the icons look too small to me is at higher zoom levels...maybe the icons could be a little bigger, porportionate to the total hex area, at zoom 8 than at zoom 1?

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 660