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Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PRU RAF in particular

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PRU RAF in particular Page: [1]
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Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PRU RA... - 7/11/2006 1:20:39 PM   
timtom


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From: Aarhus, Denmark
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Hi guys,

Does anyone of you know anything about British and Commonwealth Recon units operating within the theatres and timeframe covered by the game?

I'm particularly curious about the so-called No. 3 PRU RAF, apparently the progenitor of No. 681 & 684 Squadrons RAF. It arrived in India sometime during '42, but when and flying what?

Any info is appreciated.

Thx,

Tom

_____________________________

Where's the Any key?

Post #: 1
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 12:26:07 PM   
timtom


Posts: 2358
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
*Bump*

Pretty please

_____________________________

Where's the Any key?


(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 2
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 5:46:51 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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I don't have too much on RAF/RAAF Photo-Recon units except that they are sub-squadron size. I seem to recall that the RAAF No. 1 PRU was formed with three or four aircraft and operated very small numbers of ex-USAAF F-4/5 series aircraft (like 2 or 3, and not necessarily all at one time).

In the review of units for CHS the PRUs lost out once it became obvious that airgroup slots were running low.

I do have a bit more data on the RAAF PRUs somewhere, but I don't recall anything on RAF. Problem is, where in the heck is somewhere??

<<Edit>>

OK, found some stuff:

No. 1 PRU RAAF was formed June, 1942 at Laverton with six ex-NEI Buffalo (RAAF serials A51-1 thru A51-6). These were Model 439D Buffalos that were still enroute when the NEI fell and were diverted to Australia. They were equipped with 3 F24 Focal cameras and a auxiliary fuel tank for PRU service.

Two of the aircraft were lost during training and work-up. No. 1 PRU and the four remaining aircraft were transferred to Darwin in August, 1942. One was lost during an enemy air raid on Hughes Field on August 23, 1942. The three remaining aircraft served until they were transferred to the USAAF in mid-1943

A single ex-USAAF F-4 was transferred to No.1 PRU on October 30, 1942 and the unit operated a total of three between November, 1942 and August, 1944 (when one of them was lost in a landing accident). Maintenance and operability of these aircraft was very difficult and they were plagued with engine cooling and super-charger problems that limited their availability. Only 75 operational sorties were flown with them by No.1 PRU.

No. 1 PRU received a Mosquito PR aircraft in May, 1944 and had five on strength by the end of the year. Eighty-two operation sorties were flown by Mosquitos during 1944. Prior to this (late 1943), No. 1 PRU had worked with the U.S. 380th Bomb Group and provided flight photographers and non-flying photo processing personnel for six USAAF B-24s that had been fitted with a trimentron camera installation.

The unit was renamed NO. 87 Photo-Recon squadron on September 30, 1944.





< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 7/12/2006 6:26:05 PM >

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 3
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 5:52:54 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
I don't have my "hard copy" sources available atm, but here is some on-line information:

http://www.rafcommands.com/Bomber/3pruB.html

http://www.rafcommands.com/Coastal/681C.html

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/011111.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Medmenham

http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn671-1435.htm

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b25_22.html

http://www.zoominfo.com/directory/Raby_Ray_450101471.htm

http://64.233.161.104/searchq=cache:vWiCO1YjKsgJ:www.projectconstantendeavour.com/index.php%3Fid%3D143+%22No.+3+PRU%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=10

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 4
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 7:06:55 PM   
Montbrun


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Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I don't have too much on RAF/RAAF Photo-Recon units except that they are sub-squadron size. I seem to recall that the RAAF No. 1 PRU was formed with three or four aircraft and operated very small numbers of ex-USAAF F-4/5 series aircraft (like 2 or 3, and not necessarily all at one time).

In the review of units for CHS the PRUs lost out once it became obvious that airgroup slots were running low.

I do have a bit more data on the RAAF PRUs somewhere, but I don't recall anything on RAF. Problem is, where in the heck is somewhere??

<<Edit>>

OK, found some stuff:

No. 1 PRU RAAF was formed June, 1942 at Laverton with six ex-NEI Buffalo (RAAF serials A51-1 thru A51-6). These were Model 439D Buffalos that were still enroute when the NEI fell and were diverted to Australia. They were equipped with 3 F24 Focal cameras and a auxiliary fuel tank for PRU service.

Two of the aircraft were lost during training and work-up. No. 1 PRU and the four remaining aircraft were transferred to Darwin in August, 1942. One was lost during an enemy air raid on Hughes Field on August 23, 1942. The three remaining aircraft served until they were transferred to the USAAF in mid-1943

A single ex-USAAF F-4 was transferred to No.1 PRU on October 30, 1942 and the unit operated a total of three between November, 1942 and August, 1944 (when one of them was lost in a landing accident). Maintenance and operability of these aircraft was very difficult and they were plagued with engine cooling and super-charger problems that limited their availability. Only 75 operational sorties were flown with them by No.1 PRU.

No. 1 PRU received a Mosquito PR aircraft in May, 1944 and had five on strength by the end of the year. Eighty-two operation sorties were flown by Mosquitos during 1944. Prior to this (late 1943), No. 1 PRU had worked with the U.S. 380th Bomb Group and provided flight photographers and non-flying photo processing personnel for six USAAF B-24s that had been fitted with a trimentron camera installation.

The unit was renamed NO. 87 Photo-Recon squadron on September 30, 1944.






I think he was asking about No. 3 PRU Sqn, Don.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 5
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 7:30:08 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

I think he was asking about No. 3 PRU Sqn, Don.



You know, I read the original question to be about British and Commonwealth PRUs in general and No.3 PRU in particular. Best I can do.

(in reply to Montbrun)
Post #: 6
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 9:35:46 PM   
panda124c

 

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http://www.rafcommands.com/Bomber/3pruB.html

States that #3 PRU was "Absorbed by No.1 PRU, 15/08/41"

So I would not expect to see and #3 PRU units after this date.


(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 7
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 10:39:23 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

I think he was asking about No. 3 PRU Sqn, Don.



You know, I read the original question to be about British and Commonwealth PRUs in general and No.3 PRU in particular. Best I can do.


10-4

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 8
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/12/2006 11:01:48 PM   
Dixie


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Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
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quote:

States that #3 PRU was "Absorbed by No.1 PRU, 15/08/41" So I would not expect to see and #3 PRU units after this date.


3 PRU was another one of those RAF units that was disbanded and then reformed at a later date, before it was split into various other units. I couldn't find much about them so far, but I'll ask a guy I know at work who may know more.

_____________________________



Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to Montbrun)
Post #: 9
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/14/2006 3:56:33 PM   
Howard Mitchell


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From: Blighty
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Eyes for the Phoenix by Geoffrey J. Thomas, ISBN 0-9519899-4-4 is a volume devoted to Allied aerial Photo-reconnaissance operations over South East Asia, 1941-45. Published by Hikoki in the UK, it was been remainded for a while and you should be able to get a cheap copy. It is a while since I read it, and unfortunately it lacks an index, but I browsed through it this morning.

No 3 PRU has two separate existences. To confuse matters, No 5 PRU unit was re-named No 3 PRU (India) around May 42, presumably with the original No 3 having been disbanded at that time.

The First Unit: No 3 PRU
No 3 PRU is mentioned as being under the direct command of AOC Burma and lead by AVM D. F. Stevenson OBE DSO NC between Jan 42 and Apr 42.

Stevenson assumed command at Mingaladon on 1 Jan 42 and the unit used a modified Buffalo from 67 Squadron, equipped with a F24 14 inch vertical camera behind the cockpit. It retained two fuselage guns. The first recce mission was carried out on 18 Jan 42 from Mergui.

Two Hurricane Mk IIAs from No 2 PRU joined No 3 PRU on 25 Jan 42 and on 21 Feb the PRU unit withdrew to Magew.

On 21 March 42 one of the Hurricanes was shot down accidentally by a 17 Squadron pilot, Plt Off H. Everard, and belly-landed. “Not a bad day’s work Everard; one of theirs and one of ours!’ was his squadron leader’s comment. This Hurricane had been the only servicable No 3 PRU aircraft.

Towards the end of March 42 Magwe was evacuated and No 3 PRU moved to Mandalay and then Lashio.

The Second Unit: No 3 PRU (India)
The re-named No 5 PRU was commanded by Sqn Ldr A. C. Pearson from Apr 42 to May 42, and by Wg Cdr S. G. Wise DFC from May 42 to Jan 43.

It seems that having moved to India the unit flew five B-25Cs. The aircraft gun turrets were removed and the upper turret opening faired over, and they were finished overall in a dull dark blue similar to the ‘Royal Blue’ used on PR Hurricanes. National markings were carried on the upper surfaces only. As the blue of the roundels was more or less invisible this led to concerns that, with just the red centre obvious, they could easily be mistaken for Japanese aircraft. 2,000 gal fuel tanks were installed in the bomb bays, extending their operating radius to about 1,000 miles. Three F8 or F24 cameras were carried in place of the ventral turret and an F52/20 inch was mounted in the rear fuselage. As a test they flew one to Mount Everest, flying around it at about 30,000 feet. Their speed and altitude were considered enough in the early war years to keep them safe from interception.


The three volumes of the Bloody Shambles series mention 3 PRU in passing:

On 16 March 42 it was part of BURWING and had one Hurricane and one Tigermoth on strength.

On 22 March 42 only the Tigermoth remained (due to Plt Off Everard!); it carried out a recce over Toungoo looking for isolated British units. The Tigermoth was flown to Laisho.

On 13 April 42 No 3 PRU took over two Hurricanes from 17 Squadron at Laisho.

3 PRU is shown as having Hurricanes and Mitchells at Calcutta in the RAF Order of Battle for September 42.

By Jan 43 it was based at Agartala and Dum Dum with 681 Squadron and had together they had B-25Cs, Hurricanes and Spitfire IVs.


_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 10
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/14/2006 4:25:13 PM   
timtom


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From: Aarhus, Denmark
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Excellent! Thanks all. Michael - this is exactly what I was hoping for.

Any idea whether the first 3 PRU was disbanded and/or absorbed into the second 3 PRU?

IIRC, Bloody Shambles also also mentions a provisional 4 PRU, flying a couple of Buf's?

_____________________________

Where's the Any key?


(in reply to Howard Mitchell)
Post #: 11
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/14/2006 7:37:56 PM   
Howard Mitchell


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Eyes of the Phoenix simply says No 5 PRU was re-numbered to No 3 PRU, which suggests to me the original one was disbanded – I think the author would have said merged or the like if it was absorbed, but it is not 100% clear. The original No 3 PRU was never a large unit and I think it just fell apart during the headlong retreat from the Japanese.


No 4 PRU is listed as being led by Sqn Ldr C.G.R. Lewis from Nov 41 to Feb 42. Two Hurricane Mk IIs were allocated for it when it was based at Seletar and were to be flown out in late 1941. They do not seem to have arrived.

Instead, two Buffaloes from the reserve pool were provided as ‘initial equipment’ for the flight, piloted by Flt Lt A. D. Philips and Sgt. C. Wareham. The unit was tasked just before the Japanese invasion with an aerial survey of Malaya for the Army and the civil authorities of the Federated Malay States, but the war intervened before it could get underway. A Beaufort was soon added to the unit but was to be returned to Australia for fitting with cameras, etc.

During the short campaign Philips flew 50 and Wareham 26 recce sorties, being awarded the DFC and DFM respectively. It was a No 4 PRU aircraft which found 34 supply ships at Singora on 31 Dec 41. Philip’s aircraft had been damaged on several occasions.

With the fall of Singapore the two remaining PR Buffaloes were due to fly to Palembang. However, one was destroyed by shelling the night before it was due to fly so, so only one flew out on the 7 Feb 42 escorted by a Buffalo fighter.

Very worried at Palembang that if they left the aircraft on the airfield they would be taken by some senior officers who were ‘all obviously itching to get out of here’, the two Buffaloes immediately flew on to Batavia, where Sqn Ldr Lewis overshot the runway in heavy rain and overturned his aircraft, writing it off. He was hospitalised and invalided out to Australia two weeks later.

So just as No 3 PRU seems to have simply faded away, No 4 suffered the same fate – its aircraft destroyed and its pilots either injured, tour-expired or allocated to other units.

There seems to have been a second No 4 PRU formed at Maison Blanche in Algiers in early 1943. This was quickly re-numbered to 682 Squadron.


_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 12
RE: Help w/ Brit & CMW Air Recon Units in general, 3 PR... - 7/14/2006 8:02:50 PM   
el cid again

 

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This material was reviewed a couple of months ago in an RHS thread.
As a result, RHS (which is base on the previous CHS and only partially converted to the current concept - definitely not with respect to combining air units) retains the No 3 PRU. RHS also preserves the old CHS concept of bombers in squadrons - and permits no air unit with more than 48 aircraft - whatever that requires. The normal squadron is 9 to 18 sized.
There are also a fair number of flights - where these were significant - usually 4 to 8 planes - and quite a number of these are Allied. The Japanese have them too - but instead of being called flight they are called "Shotai" - in case you didn't understand the turn. "Chutai" is more or less "squadron." [The problem is, "Daitai" also can be translated as squadron - or "small group" - since it contains "units" of 9 or 12 - leaving us little room to describe the larger units of 2 or 3 Daitais unless they were "large groups"? I think of a Daitai as a "large squadron" and a Sentai (army) or Kokutai (Navy) as a "group." There is yet another variation for squadron: DHD - an abbreviation for Japanese words meaning "Headquarters Squadron" - all of which are transport elements in RHS.] In the Army you have "independent chutai" and in the navy you have various kinds of Daitai or Chutai - a letter indicating type - and a number indicating unit number - where Daitai should be read to imply it contains two Chutai as a general rule. [NOTHING Japanese is EVER simple!]

(in reply to Howard Mitchell)
Post #: 13
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