Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO?

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Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/11/2006 9:19:32 PM

Capt Cliff

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Is this game the standard UGO/IGO system?

I hope not!

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/11/2006 10:29:40 PM

stevel40831

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Is this game the standard UGO/IGO system? I hope not!

Yes, it is.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/11/2006 10:47:43 PM

mariovalleemtl

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I would love if both player could plot there moves at the same time and, after, see the computer manage the result.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/12/2006 6:24:12 AM

sol_invictus

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Yep, V4V/W@W had it right 13 years ago. I much prefer WEGO engines.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/12/2006 9:31:29 PM

Capt Cliff

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The nw Combined Arms game by Matrix is the answer. If Matrix management would get behind it and add some additional resources to get it published! The Igo/Ugo system was the only way board games, remember board games, would work. Although there was a S&T magazine game about the tip of the bulge that had an impulse system. But anyway WEGO is the ONLY way to go!!!

Battlefront is most definately on my NOT to buy list. I still have all my Atomic Games games. They are clunky but they did it right!

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/12/2006 10:16:55 PM

Erik Rutins

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As one of the designers of CA, I have to say I really don't understand the vehemence of this anti-IGOUGO sentiment. As a wargamer, I've always enjoyed both styles of play. Particularly at the operational level, there's a good case to be made for IGOUGO. At any level, both are legitimate ways to wargame and each bring their own positives to the game experience.

In any case, those of you who definitely won't give this a try because of that should realize that a lot of other gamers are fine with it and we're fine with it as well. SSG designs outstanding wargames and both IGOUGO and WEGO style wargames are welcome at Matrix. If it's not your cup of tea, we have many other forums where you can discuss WEGO.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/12/2006 11:32:01 PM

raydude

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I wouldn't say its a vehement disagreement with the IGO/UGO system, its more of a disgruntlement. One can probably count on two hands the number of games released which use the WEGO system. Not counting the continuous-time games which are a different animal entirely.

Contrast that with the number of games using IGO/UGO. Its probably fair to say that if one wants WEGO that they should play a WEGO game, but - if there's only 10 something WEGO games then it kind of sucks for the WEGO lovers, no?

Its also fair for wargamers to expect more from a PC wargame than what looks like a boardgame ported to a computer. Sure, the computer handles all the number crunching and prevents one from making illegal moves and such. But what about all the other battlefield variables that one reads about, but almost never gets a chance to simulate? That's where a PC wargame can become so much more than its boardgame brothers. WEGO is but one of those ways.

Don't get me wrong - a well conceived command and logistics ruleset (a la Battlefront) can also lift a PC wargame above its boardgame brothers. Which is why I eagerly await more details on these features.

< Message edited by raydude -- 7/13/2006 1:40:04 PM >

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/13/2006 2:43:42 AM

sol_invictus

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Yeah, mine is simply a preference for WEGO; I will certainly buy Battlefront and just got TOAWIII. CA though, hopefully, promises something really special in the vein of V4V/W@W. I was blown away by those classics.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/13/2006 9:12:10 PM

Capt Cliff

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Erik, raydude is right it's not a vehemence it's just that it ain't real anymore! Like space invaders vs. Knight's of the Old Republic. The old chit system for board games only allowed IGOUGO and it was the closest thing to the real event. Ever played Atlantic Wall or Wach Am Rein? I have and they were great but not like the real thing. WEGO is the way it happens! Send an airstrike against Midway while your opponent send his against your fleet!!! It can only be done with a WEGO system and now we have the computing power to make it happen. Well if and when CA is published!

So I guess the old Atomic Games games have corrupted me, .. but Luke it is your destiny!!!

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/14/2006 2:51:10 AM

sol_invictus

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I am the same way, I quit playing TOAW and HPS games after I was enthralled by the Atomic games. I just couldn't go back. I figured after those games almost all wargames would be WEGO, but it never happened. I have had to revert back to DB and TAOWIII, which while really good games, are just not the same. I am sure that Battlefront will be a really good game and I certainly intend to grab it, but it is only a way station until CA.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/14/2006 4:48:17 PM

Capitaine

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For this "WEGO" mode to be realistic, you would need a mechanism to recreate the punch-counterpunch nature of warfare. So often in war, one side will take the initiative, and the other side will be reactive. The reacting side doesn't all of a sudden start moving at the same time, or even immediately after, the initiative side attacks. I recall in V4V "Velikye Luki" that the German strategy was to begin a huge retreat from Soviet lines on the first turn, thereby preempting the start of the Soviet offensive and saving themselves for later. It was unrealistic. In a wargame, however, players tend to move their units much more frequently and agressively. Until someone designs a system to replicate the actual "movement order" in WEGO terms, that system will suffer for both realism and playability reasons.

Just because it is true that real life armies execute their operations simultaneously, it doesn't mean they are both using maximum energy and capability across the board every second with all their units, as gamers playing a WEGO game do. In this respect, and at this level in game tech, an IGO-UGO system remains better able to replicate the uneven activity levels of the sides better than the WEGO alternative, IMO. This may change one day, but someone has to come up with the mechanism to do it, and make it playably fun. V4V wasn't it, unless one's view was that simultaneous execution alone was and is the single most important aspect of combat there is. That simply isn't the case, espec. in operational level games.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/14/2006 5:28:10 PM

sol_invictus

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Well that is true and as I said, the Atomic games weren't perfect. I guess since games can't really come that close to actually modelling realistic combat conditions, we just have to choose our favorite aspects and thereby lets some other things slide. With Battlefront, TOAWIII, and CA, I think everyone should find some wargaming goodness. I will certainly play all three for many years.

< Message edited by Arinvald -- 7/14/2006 8:09:24 PM >

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/14/2006 6:07:55 PM

pvthudson01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

Well that is true and as I said, the Atomic games weren't perfect. I guess since games can't really come that close to actually modelling realistic combat conditions, we just have to choose our favorite aspects and thereby lets some other things slide. With Battlefront, TOAWIII, and CA, I think everyone should find wargaming some goodness. I will certainly play all three for many years.

That's a great point. Which is why I am glad SSG designs their games this way. Honestly I count on them to keep making games that are played in this manner because, call me nuts, I love hexes, and I love CRT's and the thrill of hitting EXECUTE COMBAT and seeing what my dice roll. It is just great

quote:

Its also fair for wargamers to expect more from a PC wargame than what looks like a boardgame ported to a computer

Well that is ok with me, it's really why I buy their games.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/14/2006 6:30:25 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
For this "WEGO" mode to be realistic, you would need a mechanism to recreate the punch-counterpunch nature of warfare. So often in war, one side will take the initiative, and the other side will be reactive. The reacting side doesn't all of a sudden start moving at the same time, or even immediately after, the initiative side attacks. I recall in V4V "Velikye Luki" that the German strategy was to begin a huge retreat from Soviet lines on the first turn, thereby preempting the start of the Soviet offensive and saving themselves for later. It was unrealistic. In a wargame, however, players tend to move their units much more frequently and agressively. Until someone designs a system to replicate the actual "movement order" in WEGO terms, that system will suffer for both realism and playability reasons.

Very true, Capitaine - I was trying to express the same point in saying that IGOUGO can be uniquely suited to operational warfare, if done right. SSG's designs for this have been outstanding and have won multiple recent awards through the Decisive Battles series. I would encourage even hardcore WEGO gamers to give this a try as it may surprise you how much fun you have and how realistic the results turn out.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/14/2006 10:04:37 PM

raydude

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
In this respect, and at this level in game tech, an IGO-UGO system remains better able to replicate the uneven activity levels of the sides better than the WEGO alternative, IMO. This may change one day, but someone has to come up with the mechanism to do it, and make it playably fun.

What makes you think game technology is limiting us from creating a realistic WEGO system? One gigabyte ram and 3 GHz speed CPUs are still not enough? I sincerely hope it changes one day. Hopefully in my lifetime.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/15/2006 2:13:26 AM

sol_invictus

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He probably means AI technology.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/15/2006 7:05:02 PM

Capitaine

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Actually, I was referring more to computer game theory: Game mechanisms that model the actual effects that would cause one side, the static one, to have less action and flexibility until such historically appropriate time as the command and supply structure could react to the enemy offensive. This is not impossible, and there are certain basic "rules" that can be implemented (frozen units, e.g.). But a more detailed command model would likely be what you'd need. Plus, it would need to be as exciting as an IGO-UGO game system, with as smooth a UI, too.

The turn resolution in WEGO games is often problematic as well. For my part, I am very interested in seeing individual combat resolution, with the numbers and odds (or other CRT-type numbers) displayed so I can see and understand how effective my attacks are. This is an inherent problem with WEGO because the combats often occur "on the fly" and the playback doesn't show any or enough combat resolution detail. A "movie" just showing an overall map view with everything going on at once is not meaningful to me, and I don't like to have to rewatch a movie multiple times to focus on each area I might be interested in. The tradeoff between conveying the information I like to see in a wargame and the mere appearance of more "realism" through simultaneous moves is not one I'm really interested to make at this point in "game tech", if you know what I mean.

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/17/2006 9:21:04 PM

Capt Cliff

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Capitaine, You make a good point about Velikye Luki. I've played that game a hundred times and to survive as the German you have to beat feet. But that's because you have perfect 20-20 hindsight vision. You know the Soviets are gong to attack in FORCE and not just a probe so you can play it that way. There is also a certain resiliency of the units that was not modelled correctly in the Atomic Games system, they simple disappeared! You couldn't create ad hoc units like Task Forse SNAFU at Bastogne. It can be said the same about Bulge games too that if you run away you can save the 106th ID from destruction.

But anyway, why do we have to play wargames like chess? Chess is an IGO/UGO system. It's also an old Indian war game to teach Indian princes what to do when Alexander the Great comes back. Luckily for them he didn't. We have the technology to simulate combat as it happens. Why keep playing the old fashsion way. Shift that paradime!

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/17/2006 9:49:10 PM

Capitaine

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Well Cpt. Cliff, I pretty much agree with your aspirations. As things stand now, I like what I've seen in IGO-UGO better than what I've seen in WEGO (not terribly fond of the Panther Games engine nor CM). V4V was getting closer to an ideal system when it just stopped, and no one ever tried that style of game again to my knowledge. In fact, the games might be better than I recall, 'cuz it's been so long.

But I could see a game like "Battlefront" being done in WEGO format, perhaps with mechanics to model one side being revved up for an offensive, while the other is surprised and flat-footed (like Ardennes). Plotting many units is a much more tedious process, however, than the move-combat-move system of DB and Battlefront. You don't recall where every unit you've ordered actually ends up, and your moves get confused. There may be a way around it, but I don't see a WEGO system yet where I'd trade the positives you gain from an IGO-UGO turn-based system. It seems that it would be nice if someone picked up where the V4V series left off...

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RE: Is this WEGO or UGO/IGO? - 7/18/2006 2:44:36 AM

sol_invictus

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I guess that would be Combined Arms.

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