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Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up!

 
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Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/12/2006 8:54:28 AM   
aztez

 

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One of my recon planes spotted enemy CV TF nearing Aleutians. The total number of ships was 10 but I think there is more to this.

This basically means that we have a big chance of seeing some CV vs CV duels here since I'am not going withdraw my US CV Fleet from here.

The invasion TF will hit beaches next turn at Dutch Harbour.

The good news is that he does not have an operational airfield there currently.


Day Air attack on Dutch Harbor , at 103,36

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 163
B-24D Liberator x 48

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed
H8K Emily: 2 destroyed


Japanese ground losses:
17 casualties reported

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 98

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Dutch Harbor, at 103,36

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
H8K Emily: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Montpelier
CL Columbia
CL Cleveland
BB Indiana
BB New Mexico
BB West Virginia

Japanese ground losses:
90 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 30
Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 3

US BB TF is now heading towards Anchorage to replenish and refuel.

RAF also have started ther aircampaign againts Akyab.


Day Air attack on Akyab , at 30,29

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 10
Liberator VI x 37
B-25C Mitchell x 54
B-25J Mitchell x 43
B-17E Fortress x 44

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
161 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 121


Dave has only 4000 men at Akyab so I will propably launch an invasion here soon.

I actually can't wait for the next turn to arrive. It might be one hell of an CV battle ahead of us



(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 301
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 9:27:50 AM   
aztez

 

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This game has really pissed me off.

As expected that was the KB that my recon planes spotted.

I did send my CV fleet to engage the enemy! I was expecting a bigtime battle but what happens... There were NO aircraft flown from US CV's despite the fact that I closed in range!!! Instead Japanese aircraft flew againts the invasion TF heading to Dutch Harbour unopposed!!!

The result ----> Transport TF BADLY mauled and my CV Fleet on its way to Anchorage as nothing happened!!! These CV's even got separated!!

Basically I really don't care nomore! No I wohn't forfeit but again this makes one consider what is the worth of spending hours and hours and hours into game which engine is really far from complete as we all know!

Next turn... well I will make an banzai charge with CV fleets... I really don't care whether they are sunk or not. Other meanings for this is that there will not be any offensives conducted in 1943.


(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 302
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 10:44:36 AM   
veji1

 

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Are you sure this isn't linked to Northern area weather ?

I mean you have lost troops here, nothing more, so it isn't a big deal... Your first real counter attack may be a disaster, but you'll start kicking his ass in 3-4 months somewhere else, if you get your CVs sunk then you are out of the game and the fun for 12-18 months...

I understand your frustration, but try to "role-play" what happened as a weather problem, a TF admiral incompetence issue or something else... Fire some of your officers and back on track.

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 303
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 11:56:15 AM   
aztez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

Are you sure this isn't linked to Northern area weather ?

I mean you have lost troops here, nothing more, so it isn't a big deal... Your first real counter attack may be a disaster, but you'll start kicking his ass in 3-4 months somewhere else, if you get your CVs sunk then you are out of the game and the fun for 12-18 months...

I understand your frustration, but try to "role-play" what happened as a weather problem, a TF admiral incompetence issue or something else... Fire some of your officers and back on track.




Don't know but I would not be suprised to see that weather was the main factor! ...that is ok if so BUT it did seem to affect the Japanese side at all!!!!

I doubt I can launch any serious offensives anywhere soon. The one thing allied lack is infantry divisions and men. ( and the one thing Japanese have plenty off)

I actually was ready for CV vs CV duel.... IF i knew it was not going to happen than I never would have let that transport TF go ahead! I actually could have afforded to loose some of them since I could have advanced under LBA cover.

I'am no quitter so I wohn't ask replay turn or anything. Needless to say though that I'am very pissed now. Hours and hours of preparation and for what! To see Witp game engine screw you big time!!! That is not encouraging at all.

...and for other things I doubt there will ever be an allied victory in this one. Atolls (Propably more than divisions worth of Japanese) after atolls level 9 fortifications.



(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 304
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 3:35:18 PM   
Feinder


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Look on the bright side Aztez...

In my case, it was my CVs that got pasted, not my transport TF.  In your case, at least you still have your CVs.  My suggestion is to take 3 days off, and come up with what you want to do in game with a level head...



It -is- frustrating.  But hang in there and don't do anything rash, you know Dave won't...

-F-

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Post #: 305
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 3:45:46 PM   
Sneer


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calm down
i had similar situation  in my great CV battle
CV Tfs couldn't reach themselves because of weather but were able to strike enmy Tfs in area ( both of them )
big mess
but war is big mess IMO


_____________________________


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Post #: 306
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 4:55:22 PM   
aztez

 

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Cheers guys.

As for the weather than I'am dazzled how could he have launched multiple organized strikes. I mean if the weather is bad than it should be for both sides... or at least that is what I think. I mean not a single aircraft took off from my CV's!

ADavidB has many times correctly critized the weather model in Witp and justifiable so.

Actually I moved my CV's back towards Dutch Harbour. I really need to salvage those remaining bad ships.

As for this game. I will not quit since once I made an commitment I will keep my word.

Just a tip for anybody starting a new game. Use NIK's mod since it is closest thing to reality.

Another thing that ******* disaster meant is that bulk of AP's are done... 3 US divisions are propably lost forever (I was prepared for this but not the way game mechanics dealt with). Adding these things up means that there will not be any allied offensives in South Pacific nor CenPac propably until late 1943.

Dave does have 8 units each of the critical atolls. That will amount to serious firepower.. propably more than 700 Assault points. The way Witp handles landings that means propably around 6 US divisions worth men + supporting troops to even have a chance of success.... and that in game terms means zZzzzZzzZ since allied player does not have such excess of ground combat units!!!

Only place to even think offensive is China and Burma. Well China is done meat even if he does not make any assault. Those shock assaults added with pursue enemy commands simply crushed my troops earlier. Other thing that these troops are starving anyway due to game supply system.

That leaves Burma. I will receive 2 Indian divisions soon but even with those my assault points are nowhere near for the needed for anykind of serious advance. I think he might even capture most of India due to lack of British forces if he chooses.

Australia and NZ are isolated. I do have quite a few troops in South but to move them North Oz would spell a total disaster. He could than launch an invasion from Noumea and surrounding bases.

Summa Summarum. I have in 99'9% certainty lost the war already. There is noway I can conquer all of it IF the offensive begin in later part of 1943 or 1944. That is undeniable fact.

Dave has had the ability to ship supplies to Japan for a longtime. Meaning that there will not be anykind of struggle for Japanese industry in this game ever.

That pretty much sums things up. (It seems similar situation in most of the AAR's... Sneer vs Raver, Nemo vs Trey, PzB vs Andy Mac... by looking points there is noway for allied side gain a victory... if they do that is an miracle)


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Post #: 307
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 5:36:19 PM   
Sneer


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Fear is big
you will find solution  and Japan will probably stop too


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Post #: 308
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 6:00:43 PM   
Feinder


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I would bet Dave will maybe comeplete some invasions in the Aleutions, and then just start digging in.

As you point out, invading something isn't really an option for you for a while. In that case, see if you can engage his fleet. But -try- to lure him under your own LBA umbrella (yes, I know he's very good about NOT doing this). But since you can't kill him on the ground, try to kill him at sea.

Just be very careful of getting anywhere near his LBA. What happend to me was, my CVs reacted into his LBA net. His LBA strikes went first, broke up my CAP a bit, then his CVs launched and I got killed. Meanwhile, my own strieks were all but unescorted. Whatever. Moral of the story is to try to lure him into your own LBA net. If that doesn't work, then you wait until late '43 as you indicated.

-F-

_____________________________

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Post #: 309
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/13/2006 6:11:48 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Aztez Its annoying but your carriers are intact and with pressure from India he cannot be strong everywhere.

The loss of the AP's is irritating as it will slow down your forward build up.

If any fragment of the Divs is saveable do so 2nd USMC Div was lost in my game with PZB as no fragment was saved from Java and it irks me as the Marine Divs are hugely important.

Avoid atolls until you have assault shipping and go for isolated bases in overwhelming force.

(p.s. I am still aiming for a 2:1 victory over PZB I hope to really rack up VP's when I destroy all the extra industry he has built up with the Indian resources)

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 310
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/14/2006 10:17:10 AM   
Nemo121


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Aztez,

You are weak in terms of naval airpower. Fairly strong in terms of light surface strike groups, strong in terms of LBA and relatively strong and getting stronger in terms of ground troops.

Bide your time a little. Pick your targets and invade in several months time where you can maximise your strengths and minimise the Japanese strengths. And remember that if the Japanese hold Canton, Baker and Palmyra but you can circumvent that by holding Fiji and driving northward behind them then you don't always HAVE to attack into strength. You are still opposing strength with strength too much.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 311
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/15/2006 2:49:12 PM   
aztez

 

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Cheers guys,


Feinder: Yeah, I know he can use LBA for his advantage. If I look his defensive perimeter the whole system is build the way that he can have 3 separate airfields supporting each other. I really need to be careful there.

Btw any new developments in your game againts Dave?


Andy Mac: Good advices. Luckily those fragments survived and are now in Anchorage. Erstad has not actually been able destroy those I landed at Dutch Harbour so my estimate that his forces are not strong there yet are propably true.

I'am regular reader in your game vs PzB and as you said strategic points are propably the only way to achieve victory. Allthough it will be huge mountain to climb and hopefully you can do it.

Nemo121: I did actually engage the KB last turn and it was kind of an draw.
If I understand correctly you say that when I will move ahead than go through Pago Pago and surrounding bases.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 312
US CV fleet clashes with KB in Aleutians... - 7/15/2006 2:53:14 PM   
aztez

 

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We did have our first Carrier clash last turn. First off here are some screenshots:







Attachment (1)

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Post #: 313
RE: US CV fleet clashes with KB in Aleutians... - 7/15/2006 2:54:20 PM   
aztez

 

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The situation map....




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 314
RE: US CV fleet clashes with KB in Aleutians... - 7/15/2006 2:55:09 PM   
aztez

 

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...and the result of these strikes...







Attachment (1)

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Post #: 315
RE: US CV fleet clashes with KB in Aleutians... - 7/15/2006 3:01:43 PM   
veji1

 

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is he hurt ? How many CVs did he have ? It looks like he creamed you airforce while having painful but survivable losses. How are your other CVs ? Can he follow suit on the next turn or will he withdraw ?

More More More !!!

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Post #: 316
RE: US CV fleet clashes with KB in Aleutians... - 7/15/2006 3:03:44 PM   
aztez

 

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As you can see from screenshots above we did have an carrier clash. I decieded to gamble and in the end both sides took some serious damage.


This action took place in 24th of February 1943...


Day Air attack on TF at 101,41
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 96
A6M3 Zero x 13
A6M3a Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
SBD Dauntless x 31
TBF Avenger x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 10 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 30 destroyed
TBF Avenger: 14 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 101,41
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 94
A6M3 Zero x 13
A6M3a Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
TBF Avenger x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
TBF Avenger: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 101,41

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 94
A6M3 Zero x 13
A6M3a Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
TBF Avenger x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBF Avenger: 6 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 101,41

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 94
A6M3 Zero x 13
A6M3a Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 58
SBD Dauntless x 125
TBF Avenger x 73

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 26 destroyed, 6 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 12 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 56 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 31 destroyed, 45 damaged
TBF Avenger: 22 destroyed, 24 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
CA Mogami
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 3
CL Agano
CVE Unyo, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage *confirmed sunk*
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 7,  on fire,  heavy damage
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
CA Kako

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 101,41

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
A6M3a Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 32
TBF Avenger x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 7 destroyed, 15 damaged
TBF Avenger: 11 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 101,41

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
A6M3a Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
TBF Avenger x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 5 destroyed
TBF Avenger: 3 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CL Agano

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 101,41
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 64
A6M3a Zero x 22

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBF Avenger x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 14 destroyed, 6 damaged
TBF Avenger: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVE Hosho, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
CA Kumano, Bomb hits 1
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 102,39
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 92
A6M3 Zero x 14
D3A Val x 89
A6M3a Zero x 29
B5N Kate x 151
E13A1 Jake x 11

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 199

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 59 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 11 destroyed
D3A Val: 27 destroyed, 18 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 18 destroyed
B5N Kate: 56 destroyed, 39 damaged
E13A1 Jake: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 122 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Suwannee, Torpedo hits 5,  on fire,  heavy damage *sunk*
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire
DD Gridley
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1
CLAA San Diego
DD Monssen, Bomb hits 1,  heavy damage
CA Chester, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
CA Chicago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 102,39
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 15

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 12 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 102,39
 
Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 13

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 31

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged


Allied Ships
CV Hornet,  on fire,  heavy damage


CV Lexington will propably not make it to safety or at least it will be out for a longtime. CV Hornet and CV Yorktown propably will survive but are in tire need of drydocks.

These damaged ships are now sailing towards Anchorage and are escorted by remaining US CV's and 1 Surface combat TF.

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 317
RE: US CV fleet clashes with KB in Aleutians... - 7/15/2006 4:01:09 PM   
aztez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

is he hurt ? How many CVs did he have ? It looks like he creamed you airforce while having painful but survivable losses. How are your other CVs ? Can he follow suit on the next turn or will he withdraw ?

More More More !!!




Don't know how badly he got hurt. CVE Unyo is confirmed sunk. It looks like some of his other CVL/CVE's received quite few bomb hits too. At least some of them should be out of action for sometime.

Oh well Wildcats are not exactly A quality fighters so I those losses I took in the air very not devastating.

My other carriers are fine. They are actually now set on follow TF command (they are protecting Yorktown, Hornet and Enteprise). British CV's are still in India.

He can follow the pursuit if he chooses to do so. As you can see from the overall map our navys are just 120-180 miles apart. I'am withdrawing towards Anchorage.

My big 4E bombers are set on naval attack just in case home comes within range of my LBA's.

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Post #: 318
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/15/2006 4:19:56 PM   
ADavidB


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quote:

Don't know but I would not be suprised to see that weather was the main factor! ...that is ok if so BUT it did seem to affect the Japanese side at all!!!!


Unit experience is the only factor that I can attribute to the regular ability of the Japanese air units to fly in bad weather, versus the regular inability of Allied air units to fly in bad weather. What I see in my games is that both sides get grounded by weather, but the side with more experienced pilots gets grounded less. I'm guessing that experience changes the odds on the weather checks for take off and for finding your opponent.

The reason that I believe that is that in the CBI theater, as my air units get more experience they do tend to fly more often regardless of the weather. And when my opponents get into a long-term bombing campaign, such as against Manila, their units are soon flying regardless of the weather, likely because they are getting constantly increasing experience.

At least that's the only thing that makes sense to me in PBEM. That doesn't mean that I think that the current Advanced Weather model is acceptable. On the contrary, the more I learn about weather around the Pacific, the more I realize how badly modeled Advanced Weather really is. In fact, right now I am getting suspicious that the model is based upon a Northern Hemisphere model and doesn't account for the differences in the seasons between hemispheres.

In any event, stick to it and figure out ways to get experience for your pilots and you will stand a better chance of having planes fly when you need them. But never, never, never count on air power to get you out of a jam in this game...

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 319
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/15/2006 6:10:41 PM   
aztez

 

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Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

Don't know but I would not be suprised to see that weather was the main factor! ...that is ok if so BUT it did seem to affect the Japanese side at all!!!!


Unit experience is the only factor that I can attribute to the regular ability of the Japanese air units to fly in bad weather, versus the regular inability of Allied air units to fly in bad weather. What I see in my games is that both sides get grounded by weather, but the side with more experienced pilots gets grounded less. I'm guessing that experience changes the odds on the weather checks for take off and for finding your opponent.

The reason that I believe that is that in the CBI theater, as my air units get more experience they do tend to fly more often regardless of the weather. And when my opponents get into a long-term bombing campaign, such as against Manila, their units are soon flying regardless of the weather, likely because they are getting constantly increasing experience.

At least that's the only thing that makes sense to me in PBEM. That doesn't mean that I think that the current Advanced Weather model is acceptable. On the contrary, the more I learn about weather around the Pacific, the more I realize how badly modeled Advanced Weather really is. In fact, right now I am getting suspicious that the model is based upon a Northern Hemisphere model and doesn't account for the differences in the seasons between hemispheres.

In any event, stick to it and figure out ways to get experience for your pilots and you will stand a better chance of having planes fly when you need them. But never, never, never count on air power to get you out of a jam in this game...

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi



Some useful into here. Thank you Dave.

The more I think the more certain I'am that it was the experience levels of my pilots which let into not flying in Bad weather. That is still somewhat fantasy weather system we have in Witp engine.

...I think lessons learned again and I will not count into my airpower as you suggested.


< Message edited by aztez -- 7/15/2006 6:11:24 PM >

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 320
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/15/2006 7:34:28 PM   
Nemo121


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quote:

I did actually engage the KB last turn and it was kind of an draw. If I understand correctly you say that when I will move ahead than go through Pago Pago and surrounding bases.


Hmm, not sure I'd classify it as a draw. Essentially any Japanese CV not sunk before 1st January 1944 is, under most strategies, irrelevant except insofar as it exists as a threat in being. In other words it doesn't form much of a threat in actually engaging enemy forces.

So, trading a couple of CVEs an CVL Ryuho ( given poor Japanese damage control I would suggest that this is what he actually lost) in return for sinking 1 Allied CV and, at the very least, seriously damaging one more and moderately damaging another is a pretty good deal. These aren't fatal blows to the Americans but they do tend to limit your options for attacks on isolated bases. Strategically and operationally I'd have to call this a win for the Japanese.

As to where to advance... If you advance from Pago Pago you face a long, long march through many easily identified atolls each of which must be taken in series and in range of only limited LBA. No, I think that you need to gamble, land where he isn't and focus on the air bridge of the Aleutians to Parmashiro Jima ( sp?). This is the area in which you can maximise your LBA power and have the greatest ability to cut off his reaction forces and land where he isn't.

Here's what I would have suggeste.... Using the bad weather as cover land a division and CD/AAA units and several EAB Bns at both Amchitka and the other unoccupied but Japanese-controlled islands in the Aleutians. Fortify them ASAP an then build up your airfields. Forget about the isolated Japanese forces in your rear and then push on towards the Kuriles. Tight focus along a very prescribed ( and, importantly, proscribed) axis will benefit you at this stage.

Risky but very beneficial and attacking will tend to limit the enemy's offensive potential at far less cost than defending given the force correlation and geographical situations in this game. In any case that is the strategy I am applying in the game I've started as the US. I'm retreating in some places but also ordered my first large-scale offensive on December 8th 1941. I think that's the way to go in limiting Japanese expanionism. Attack them while they are focussed elsewhere and rip their throat out while they are focussed on their own sword arm. When the sword is turned on you it will be wielded by someone already significantly weakened by blood loss. I think you can apply the same thinking to benefit.

Apologies if this is unwanted input. I understand that many people are rendered uncomfortable by rational exposition and invest it with a wide variety of emotional contexts it does not contain.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 7/15/2006 7:35:31 PM >

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 321
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 2:14:31 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
I must admit losing a US Carrier in early 43 makes this a marginal loss for me because of the time delay in the respawning carriers.

If you got the replacement Essex when it was actually available and not an arbitrary 12 months+ then I would call it a draw but game mechanics screw the allies on this one Aztez as its going to mean you are light in mid - late 43 when you are trying to do sooo much before the big Japanese troops reinforcements start to arrive

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 322
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 10:51:18 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
Appreciate the input guys!


Nemo: You were absolutely right since this was not a draw. (The last turn brought very bad news for allied HQ more about it later!) Hmpf, The Amchitka offensive really sounds like a plan. I cannot pull it together just yet since I'am lacking infantry units. Some remains of the 3 US Divisions are at Dutch Harbour and some are at Anchorage!

The reinforcement table is not looking good either. Just 2 US South Pacific divisions arriving in +/- 120 days time.

Do you think I could use just LBA umbrealla for this offensive? (I'am building up Kodiak and I do keep Dutch Harbour airfield closed)

...and your input is not unwanted!


Andy Mac: Yeah, I think you are right! It will be mid 1944 before I get those CV's back. (lost 2 CV's and 2 more have 50/50% of survival)

I know that late 1943 is critical and I really need to use just my LBA's for next offensives. Keeping that in mind it just leaves Aleutians and Burma for me to battle.


....lets take a look what happened last turn!

The worst fear became reality since Japane CV Fleet pursued the US CV force.


Day Air attack on TF at 103,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 57
A6M3 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 50
A6M3a Zero x 27
B5N Kate x 47
E13A1 Jake x 3
E7K2 Alf x 17

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 9, on fire, heavy damage *sunk*
CA Chester, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 105,37

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 9
B5N Kate x 33
E7K2 Alf x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
E7K2 Alf: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Maury
CA Pensacola, Bomb hits 1
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 105,37

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 9
B5N Kate x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 9 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage *Heavy damage... 90's in system/fire damage*
CLAA San Diego, Bomb hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 102,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 49
A6M3 Zero x 8
A6M3a Zero x 22

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
SBD Dauntless x 23
TBF Avenger x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 1 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 12 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 21 destroyed
TBF Avenger: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho, Torpedo hits 1, on fire *the only good news from that turn*
CV Soryu

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 104,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 54
A6M3 Zero x 10
A6M3a Zero x 26
B5N Kate x 68
E13A1 Jake x 9
E7K2 Alf x 12

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N Kate: 14 destroyed, 40 damaged
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
E7K2 Alf: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage *Heavy damage 80/80*
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 2, on fire *sys damage in 30's*
CVE Nassau, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Reno
CL Detroit
CA San Francisco, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 105,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4
D3A Val x 10
B5N Kate x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage *heavy damage*


Badly damaged CV's are heading to Kodiak! It has level 4 port facilities and hopefully I can repair some damage there.

This leaves me 2 fully operational CV's (Wasp and Essex) and 1 US mildly damaged CV (Saratoga). Not much but better than nothing I guess.

Japanese side losses in North Pacific are: CVE Unryo, CVE Tayho and CVE Chuyo. Also Dave informed that at least 2 CVL's are unlikely to survive.

Needless to say that ratio is not desirable. The fact is that in stock game KB is pretty much invincible until late 1943!!! I think had this CV vs CV battle took place using NIK mod the outcome would have been diffrent. (I have been using Nik 7.0 againts AI sometime now)

Since I'am short of CV's in CenPac/South Pacific and North Pacific Winston Churchill has given orders for Royal Navy to start preparing for journey there. The BB TF (BC Repulse, BB Valiant, BB Prince of Wales) and British CV Fleet (4 CV's and CVL Hermes) are now preparing to move out of Bombay. This will be a long journey but it is necessary regarding current situation. (Maybe I can suprise Dave later with this move).

That is pretty much it. I join the long list of allied players who had their CV's blastered out of the sea by the IJN ubercap and invincible CV armada!

Unless you are using NIK mod I would advice to wait before committing to battles until late or early 1944. Japanese navy just has too much firepower.

...the game will continue and I need to take a new look at the situation which is not good at all.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 323
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 11:05:51 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
Aye its irritating that you do well and are penalised for it the 4 respawn Essex class were operational IRL long before you will see them.

It really forces the allies to be cautious of losses in late 42 early 43. (its almost better to lose carriers in the first months of the war !!!!)

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 324
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 11:07:36 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

The fact is that in stock game KB is pretty much invincible until late 1943!!! I think had this CV vs CV battle took place using NIK mod the outcome would have been diffrent. (I have been using Nik 7.0 againts AI sometime now)

(clip)

That is pretty much it. I join the long list of allied players who had their CV's blastered out of the sea by the IJN ubercap and invincible CV armada!

Unless you are using NIK mod I would advice to wait before committing to battles until late or early 1944. Japanese navy just has too much firepower


As I read these sorts of reports time after time after time, I keep on wondering why so many folks keep on being so enthusiastic about coming up with more and more "Allied limitation houserules for a normal game" as it has been put recently...

Doesn't anyone want to be able to win a game as the Allies?

(BTW - I'm not so certain that your idea of moving the Brits is such a good one at this time. Why don't you think about it for a game-week or so?)

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 325
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 11:10:19 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
The USN can fight and win against KB you just need the support of LBA much like the IJN does after mid 43.

Going toe to toe outside of LBA against an undamaged KB is tough - not impossible with the AA advantage but it is tough and the payback is often not worth the risk.


(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 326
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 11:29:22 PM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline
Come on ADavidB... You keep making abusive links between all the different problems of the game... This respawning Problem is real. I for once think that some sort of respawning would be good, but not including the historical ships. I am sure that had the USN gotten creamed by KB in a war without a Midway, the US would have produced the 6-8 extra CVs.

Then the A2A problem is real and some sort of implementation of Nikmode style of reform would be good to emulate more history.

But this has nothing to do with limitations that should or should not be imposed on one or the other side...

this is an annoying part of these boards...

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 327
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/16/2006 11:51:21 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

Come on ADavidB... You keep making abusive links between all the different problems of the game... This respawning Problem is real. I for once think that some sort of respawning would be good, but not including the historical ships. I am sure that had the USN gotten creamed by KB in a war without a Midway, the US would have produced the 6-8 extra CVs.

Then the A2A problem is real and some sort of implementation of Nikmode style of reform would be good to emulate more history.

But this has nothing to do with limitations that should or should not be imposed on one or the other side...

this is an annoying part of these boards...



To paraphrase another recent poster, why are you "putting words into my mouth"?

In any event, let's take this out of this otherwise quite interesting AAR. You have your opinions about this Game, I have mine. They belong in some other venue.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 328
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/17/2006 10:40:00 AM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
ADavidB: It ain't easy to win as allies. I mean Japan can run wild and conquer vast amount of territory. To win in points wise is to score strategic losses for IJN.

You stated that you would keep RN CV fleet in India. Intresting, what is your reasoning behind this? Currently Royal Navy is docked at Bombay and are waiting further orders.

Andy Mac: Yes, I do agree that LBA is the only way to go after KB before late 1943. I guess if you are really lucky than you can win a battle againts KB but to be honest it is longshot at best.


Current Situation:
 
CV Yorktown was reported sunk near Kodiak.

The two damaged CV's reached Kodiak harbour. CV Hornet and CV Lexington are badly mauled and I don't know whether they can be saved. I guess if fire and flooding damages will go down than they can make journey back to West Coast. Even so these ships will be out for months (sys damage in 80's and 90's).

There is 1 CVL and 1 CVE waiting for my fleet to arrive at San Francisco.

CV Saratoga is currently at Anchorage. Sys damage is at 30's and she will soon head out to San Francisco as well.

The only good news is that CVL Ruyho was confirmed sunk!

I will move more LBA's into Aleutians theatre.

There are not much in coming in terms of reinforcements. Next CV is still about 5 months ahead.

This is just an quick update more about the situation in next post.

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 329
RE: Japanese Naval fleet spotted... Aleutians heats up! - 7/17/2006 3:40:27 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
You asked an update in my game Aztez -

He dumped about 5 divisions on Midway. Needlesst to say it fell in 3 days. Fortunately for the Hawain Islands, I don't think they're in any real danger. I have nearly 12 Divisions defending, and litterally 2/3 of the Allied airforce there and lots of support. I would love for Dave to come at HI.

I did (likely) sink the Unyo. She hit a mine at Midway, and another on the way out. Dave said she had 80+ float, and was the eternal optimist (don't blame him). Midway was a Port(3), so I'm sure she's disbanded there right after capture. We'll see if she goes down.

The rest of my fleet that is in good condition is protecting HI. The rest of the mauled ships are slowly making their to West Coast via the long route "in the vast".

Noumea is a fortress now. Not worried about it. Manged to evac the troops from Suva, and all those that were part of invasions for SoPac. Something like 8 Divisions there, lots of air support, and all the squdns from my now deceased CVs.

Basically, I get to hide behind my LBA at HI/Noumea/India/Oz for the next months. Believe it or not, I -don't- think he'll get an auto-victory (even will most of my CVs gone). I've got him almost 1:1 in air losses (where the allies can score points to stay in it), and did NOT lose a bunch of points in ground losses other than those at start (ground losses are the killer for Allies, much more than even CVs).

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 330
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