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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> PBEM Replays

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PBEM Replays - 7/21/2006 9:09:45 PM

vetacon

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Can anyone explain to me why the replay of your opponents turn you get during a PBEM game are so limited in comparison to those you see when playing the AI? For example you can't see the detailed battle reports which contain much valuable info.

Am I being exceptionally dumb?

Post #: 1

RE: PBEM Replays - 7/21/2006 9:58:32 PM

golden delicious

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This is due to size considerations. The replay is contained entirely within the PBM file and records only changes to the situation throughout the course of the turn. It does not contain combat results, nor does it track the changing numbers and other information on unit icons.

One could conceivably expand the replay to offer as much information as if you were playing the PO, but it would add a not-insignificant overhead to the size of the PBM file.

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/21/2006 11:15:36 PM

vetacon

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Now I understand - thanks for the response.

(in reply to golden delicious)

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/21/2006 11:59:51 PM

Okimaw

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I just got the replay for Larry's first turn as Axis in FITE, 8755 moves, I don't hink I'd want all the details on that even if it were possible.

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 12:14:51 AM

Nemo69

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Yeah, pbem replays can be extremey tedious to watch through, even for smaller scenarios. Certain scenarios house rules insist on the players not watching them - and some players skip them altogether.

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 12:26:19 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

and some players skip them altogether.

Yeah. Your mileage may vary, though. If you do skip the replay, make damned sure you check over the whole map before you touch anything.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 12:32:54 AM

Nemo69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

and some players skip them altogether.

make damned sure you check over the whole map before you touch anything.

One would think it's a procedure that ought to become second nature anyway, even when watching the replay (or dozing off through it).

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 12:41:47 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

One would think it's a procedure that ought to become second nature anyway, even when watching the replay (or dozing off through it).

Probably. It's been a very long time since I watched a replay.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 8

RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 12:50:03 AM

PDiFolco

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Well, I don't care much if the replay size goes up to 5 or 10 Mb, I would prefer to have a real replay than this very small and poorly informative feature (keeping track of what units fought and how they behave and took losses is nigh impossible except in smallest scenarios) ... It's a legacy from last century

!
Don't know if it's technically possible to improve it though

(in reply to golden delicious)

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 1:03:13 AM

Nemo69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Well, I don't care much if the replay size goes up to 5 or 10 Mb, I would prefer to have a real replay than this very small and poorly informative feature (keeping track of what units fought and how they behave and took losses is nigh impossible except in smallest scenarios) ... It's a legacy from last century !
Don't know if it's technically possible to improve it though

Fog of war.

I for one have always thought, somewhere in the back of my mind, that the battle reports and the replay itself were giving way too much information. Engage a battle and see down to the last artillery unit your opponent has in support, watch the replay and see, depending on the level of theatre recon you have at the moment, units moving far behind the frontlines all the way down to the front. Same goes with friendly units, for which you can assess right after the battle exactly what were their losses - the exception being the air report that misleads you, on purpose it seems.

Except for modern scenarios in which far-reaching reconnaissance assets can be simulated through the theatre recon level, I have a hard time finding this all right.

If anything, the level of information given by both the replay and the battle reports should, in my opinion, be tuned down, optionally of course, like with the no-borders option.

Besides, even with DSL, I would object to huge pbem files - keep them as lean as possible

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 3:02:17 AM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo69
Besides, even with DSL, I would object to huge pbem files - keep them as lean as possible

Think the long range plan is to integrate the (possibly edited) TO&E into the scenario file . . . at least that is what the talk has been on the forum. I would also like to have a more detailed playback but, the TO&E plus playback would probably make the file excessive. Just as you stated.

There have been some features suggested (scroll bar, reverse playback) that would make playback much better even without the added detail.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to Nemo69)

Post #: 11

RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 3:51:13 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

I for one have always thought, somewhere in the back of my mind, that the battle reports and the replay itself were giving way too much information.

Yeah- but you get this data if you're the attacker, and if you're playing against the PO.

quote:

see, depending on the level of theatre recon you have at the moment, units moving far behind the frontlines all the way down to the front.

The way this works at the moment isn't quite right- if you can spot any one hex on the route of the units, then you know the exact composition of a moving force. This should probably work more like interdiction, with a % chance to spot each unit moving each hex. Like interdiction it would be boosted by road and rail hexes.

quote:

If anything, the level of information given by both the replay and the battle reports should, in my opinion, be tuned down, optionally of course, like with the no-borders option.

Yeah.

quote:

Besides, even with DSL, I would object to huge pbem files - keep them as lean as possible

I don't think this is actually a serious consideration today- I was just explaining why the decision was taken in the first place. As it stands now, the largest PBM file is perhaps 850kb. I'd figure it would be no more than double that even with an expanded replay.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Nemo69)

Post #: 12

RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 4:55:49 AM

Mad Cow

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I've foudn that taking various screenshots before you end your turn helps when playing large scenarios in PBEM. You can skip the replay and keep track of things. It's also a nice reference when you are trying to figure out what "those people" are trying to do. Make the screenshot, print it out and then laminate and bind them for future reference.

But you still have to be very careful and look for other stuff, though...

< Message edited by Mad Cow -- 7/22/2006 4:56:36 AM >

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RE: PBEM Replays - 7/22/2006 5:31:27 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow
I've foudn that taking various screenshots before you end your turn helps when playing large scenarios in PBEM.... Make the screenshot, print it out and then laminate and bind them for future reference.

And you could self publish and talk Barns and Nobles into selling them them on consignment for you.

(in reply to Mad Cow)

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RE: PBEM Replays joined - 7/14/2009 9:06:16 AM

aloisius

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is it possible to join alltogether evry single playback of a scenario to have - at the end - a movie of all the moves ?

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

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RE: PBEM Replays joined - 7/14/2009 2:01:33 PM

Menschenfresser

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I'd get rid of the playback altogether and replace it with something else entirely.

Two versions of the map. One taken at the start of your opponent's turn. And one taken as the PBEM file is being saved after his turn is over. Ideally, you would be able to inspect your units in either version, but I think a completely frozen version of each would suffice. And the ability to flip back and forth between the two versions before starting the next turn. Basically, this is just so you know where the lines have changed.

Couple this with a txt file of all combat and combat results arranged by, say, hex or order performed, and you have about all the combat info you could ever want integrate into your own play.

If you wanted intel, the system could generate an intel text file detailing what was spotted moving where with variable levels of detail and FOW. "Tank division spotted moving 12,94". Sorta like those in WitP. Perhaps these could even show up on the dual frozen maps.

Sounds like a work for Ralph, but what else does he have to do?

I find that even in small scenarios, you would have to watch the replay several times to get everything it's telling you. As others have said, that is often too much info. I haven't watched one in years.

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RE: PBEM Replays joined - 7/15/2009 3:02:59 PM

Heldenkaiser

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I do watch the replay, but with one eye ... do something else with the other. Just so I get the general trend of my opponent's moves--where is he advacing, where holding, where retreating, where reinforcing, &c. Granted I could probably get the same idea by comparing the map at the end of my old turn with the map at the start of my new turn. But somehow actually seeing units move makes it more palpable to me.

I do agree with the observation that we have too much info on many fields (whereas other are a complete mystery turn after turn, like the air combat and air superiority situation).

(in reply to Menschenfresser)

Post #: 17

RE: PBEM Replays joined - 7/15/2009 10:46:07 PM

damezzi

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If Toaw IV ever comes out, I think it will have to bring an interface in which players will be able to run replays at will, going fowards or backwards to the points of interest.

By the way, any news on plans for Toaw IV?

I'm happy with what Toaw is for the moment but, commercially, I don't think it can survive another 10 years if not modernized... specially the interface... and, from a commercial point of view, some new features would be necessary too or people will call it a minor upgrade. I think that what made Toaw what it is today was the freedom allowed by it's editor associated with a solid and well finished engine, which made it much more than just another game creation kit. So, I think the key is on it's editor and creating elements to give more freedom to scenario designers (without creating a lot of inconsistencies and bugs... that's the challenge) is the key to keep it alive for the next 10 years. Perhaps a considerable expansion of the possibilities of the event engine can be the solution to allow players to create a strategic layer.

A personal wish I have is the possibility to mess with terrain modifiers, so that we can model some very specific geographical features, which sometimes can make a geographical region very particular.

(in reply to Heldenkaiser)

Post #: 18