Baserunning still needs tweaking

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Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/20/2006 10:58:36 PM

PadresFan104

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1.20

2 outs, runner (8/10) on first. Deep fly to left that is dropped for an error. Runner on first is now at second. He should have been at least at third if not at home since he would be running on contact with 2 outs.

However, runners taking two bases on hits (as opposed to errors) with 2 outs seems to be working just fine.

< Message edited by PadresFan104 -- 7/20/2006 11:24:24 PM >

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/21/2006 1:59:24 AM

PadresFan104

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Damn... this bugs me too...

2 outs, runner on first. The game currently won't allow me to choose "Hit and Run" in this situation. I think it should. So what happens? Batter hits a grounder up the middle (on a 1-1 count) and my 7/10 runner has to stop at second. Now, in a H&R, he would have been able to move to third.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/22/2006 8:03:38 PM

PadresFan104

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bumping up for Shaun to comment

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/23/2006 8:42:18 PM

PadresFan104

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bumpidy bump

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/25/2006 8:44:42 AM

PadresFan104

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bumperoonio

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/25/2006 8:54:58 AM

Claymore Cut

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/agreed semi-bump

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/26/2006 6:30:28 AM

Tigers Roar

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Here is a baserunning/fielding scenario that I thought was very odd:

Runners at 1st and 2nd, zero out, grounder to 2b results in a force at 3b with defense unable to turn the DP.

Doesn�t really make sense does it? If ball is grounded to 2b, no way is the second baseman going to 3b with throw (has anybody ever seen this in real life)? Even if it were a line drive that runners had to hold up on, second baseman is going to throw to 2b then back to first for DP, right? Someone enlighten me if it makes sense for the second baseman to get a force at 3rd on a grounder with runners at 1st and 2nd.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/26/2006 6:43:26 AM

Deltadog

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Possible scenaruo-
Slow runner on 2nd, fast runner on 1st.� 2nd baseman has to go toward first to field the ball.� 1st baseman had to go toward second to try and field the ball, if 2nd basrman could not reach the ball.� Fast runner closed on 2nd faster than ss could reach bag to cover or the pitcher could reach first to cover.� Only play was to 3rd to cut down the lead runner.

< Message edited by Deltadog -- 7/26/2006 6:45:01 AM >

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/27/2006 4:44:50 AM

Tigers Roar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deltadog

Possible scenaruo-
Slow runner on 2nd, fast runner on 1st.� 2nd baseman has to go toward first to field the ball.� 1st baseman had to go toward second to try and field the ball, if 2nd basrman could not reach the ball.� Fast runner closed on 2nd faster than ss could reach bag to cover or the pitcher could reach first to cover.� Only play was to 3rd to cut down the lead runner.

Well maybe I could accept your scenario if the putout had been 3-5 but it wasn't, it was 4-5. The second baseman threw the runner out at 3rd. If the infield were playing in, again maybe, but they were not. I cannot imagine a ball being hit to 2b with runners at 2nd and 1st with nobody out and the throw going to 3rd. The 2nd baseman would have to turn his entire body, throw across the infield, ignore the out he could easily get at 2nd and also ignore the possible double play opportunity. Nice try though Deltadog.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/27/2006 6:51:33 AM

Deltadog

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How is he going to get an easy out at 2nd when the SS can't get there and he can't get there. The only possible chance is 3rd. He can throw it to the only covered bag or put it in his pocket and get no one.

Of course my scenario is based on exactly where the ball is hit and the speed of the hitter and runners. Since I do not know any of this, my scenario is just that a possible scenario. The only other is a stupid second baseman

< Message edited by Deltadog -- 7/27/2006 6:52:23 AM >

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/27/2006 4:50:52 PM

waltwa

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it seems to me that with 2 out there is little point in using hit and run because the runner is moving on contact. but it still seems like it should be a rare occurrence that a runner would only advance 1 base on any hit to the outfield.

i have played other games that will not allow h&r with 2 outs.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/27/2006 9:36:56 PM

PadresFan104

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I understand the 2 out H&R argument, but only when the count is 3-2. In that case, yes, the runner is going with the pitch. But on all other counts, the runner is only going on contact. That could mean the difference between an extra base. Here's an example:

2 outs, average/fast runner on 1st, good batter up, lousy batter in the hole. I want the H&R option with 2 outs so that I can try and score the runner on first on a single to the outfield, since the odds are that the next batter up is going to get out. Going on contact is not the same in this case.

Also, in the above scenario, if the batter swings and misses on a count with less than 2 strikes and the runner is thrown own at second, I still have that good batter leading off the next inning.

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but having a H&R option with 2 outs still seems reasonable.

< Message edited by PadresFan104 -- 7/27/2006 9:48:14 PM >

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/27/2006 10:58:52 PM

jono

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PadresFan104

I understand the 2 out H&R argument, but only when the count is 3-2. In that case, yes, the runner is going with the pitch. But on all other counts, the runner is only going on contact. That could mean the difference between an extra base. Here's an example:

2 outs, average/fast runner on 1st, good batter up, lousy batter in the hole. I want the H&R option with 2 outs so that I can try and score the runner on first on a single to the outfield, since the odds are that the next batter up is going to get out. Going on contact is not the same in this case.

Also, in the above scenario, if the batter swings and misses on a count with less than 2 strikes and the runner is thrown own at second, I still have that good batter leading off the next inning.

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but having a H&R option with 2 outs still seems reasonable.

I'm not sure that even with the hit and run on that the runner on first is going to score on a single to the outfield.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 5:02:53 AM

PadresFan104

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Maybe not, but at least it maybe opens up that hole on the right side. That's another situation I forgot to mention. I love the H&R with a left handed hitter up to bat as it opens up that gap for the grounder.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 5:22:24 AM

SittingDuck

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LH'ers in the two-hole ALWAYS!

Rickey Henderson - Carney Langford = Death for the AL (and I don't even like the A's...)

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 7:09:42 PM

Amaroq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jono
I'm not sure that even with the hit and run on that the runner on first is going to score on a single to the outfield.

It has happened in real life - but its a rare enough play that Retrosheet reports it in their 'odd scoring plays'. I'd like to see it included as a result in our 'rare plays' database, if/when Shaun builds such a beast, but I agree with your main point that it oughtn't be a part of a normal "Hit&Run" option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PadresFan104
I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but having a H&R option with 2 outs still seems reasonable.

The best argument I've heard against is that a pure "Hit and Run" actually does mean "The runner goes on contact." Its the hitter's job to make contact *if he swings*, but the batter is watching the action at the plate, and not running on every pitch. I think that's the definition Shaun is using - its a definition that makes sense of having 'Hit and Run' be an at-bat-long instruction. Since the runner goes on contact on 2 outs anyways, you could consider it to be a 'Hit and Run' on every at bat.

The other play, which sportscasters sometimes call a "Hit and Run", where the runner goes, and the batter is allowed to swing - just not allowed to fly out! - is often referred to as a "Run and Hit". The runner goes during the windup, *just* like a stolen base attempt. The batter may or may not be required to 'protect the plate', depending on the quality of the base-runner. Its definitely a single-pitch instruction, and would makes sense as an instruction with two outs. It does often result in a stolen-base attempt, for good or ill. There isn't really an equivalent action in PureSim.

'Steal', if we were really going with single-pitch instructions, should really break down into several component parts also. The runner has three main possibilities: Must Go, Green Light, and Don't Go. The hitter, similarly, has three main possibilities: Must make contact, Green Light, and 'Take'. So, if you wanted to force a stolen base attempt, you might give "Must Go | Take". I think the PureSim 'steal second' amounts to "Green Light | Green Light", which isn't quite a "Run and Hit", but can result in the batter's at-bat resolving on the first pitch.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 7:44:09 PM

PadresFan104

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq
The best argument I've heard against is that a pure "Hit and Run" actually does mean "The runner goes on contact." Its the hitter's job to make contact *if he swings*, but the batter is watching the action at the plate, and not running on every pitch. I think that's the definition Shaun is using - its a definition that makes sense of having 'Hit and Run' be an at-bat-long instruction. Since the runner goes on contact on 2 outs anyways, you could consider it to be a 'Hit and Run' on every at bat.

I see your point, but I don't agree.

From the ultimate authority in baseball (joking), Wikipedia:
A hit and run is a play in baseball where the baserunners are put in motion before the ball is hit and the batter is required to attempt to make contact with the pitch, whether it is a ball or strike. Usually this is employed when a good contact hitter is at the plate. Often, on a hit-and-run play the batter will try to "hit behind the runner" by hitting the ball to right field which makes it more likely that the runner will be able to go from first to third on a single, or even score from first on a double. Another goal of a hit and run is to open up holes in the infield for the batter to hit the ball through, since either the shortstop or second baseman will have to cover second base when they see the runner moving.

When I think of a Hit & Run, that's what I think of....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq
The other play, which sportscasters sometimes call a "Hit and Run", where the runner goes, and the batter is allowed to swing - just not allowed to fly out! - is often referred to as a "Run and Hit". The runner goes during the windup, *just* like a stolen base attempt. The batter may or may not be required to 'protect the plate', depending on the quality of the base-runner. Its definitely a single-pitch instruction, and would makes sense as an instruction with two outs. It does often result in a stolen-base attempt, for good or ill. There isn't really an equivalent action in PureSim.

Also from Wikipedia:
A related play is the less formal run and hit, similar to the hit and run, except with a fast runner on first base who is capable of stealing. The batter is given the option of hitting, with prior knowledge that the runner will be moving with the pitch. This differs from a straight steal in that the batter is encouraged to swing, instead of being prevented from swinging.

Ok, so maybe you are right, what I am looking for in the 2 out situation is definitely a Run and Hit given this information. I'm going to jump over to the suggestions thread now.

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 8:23:51 PM

Amaroq

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Hmm, I'll concede to that definition, then - I suppose what we really want are expanded baserunning options:

- Run and Hit
- Hit and Run (your/wikipedia definition)
- Run on contact

Plus
- Forced to steal
- Green light
- Yellow light
- Hold

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 8:26:25 PM

puresimmer

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Well, I can see all sides of the issue, so for 1.25 I'll make the H&R available to be called for with 2 outs.

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

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RE: Baserunning still needs tweaking - 7/28/2006 9:25:51 PM

PadresFan104

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