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Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War

 
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Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/26/2006 3:39:31 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		I'm trying to edit the wonderful Middle East 73 SCE by good old Norm himself. I've already made things a bit more realistic and balanced.
Anyway, I'm trying to separate the recon and engineer elements from the bridgades. I may just pull out the recon. But I would like to know what the independent Israeli recon battalions in the 73 looked like historically, as well as getting their unit numbers.

Can anyone help?
Post #: 1
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/26/2006 5:16:30 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's something interesting about an Isreali recon unit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golani_Brigade

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/26/2006 5:57:25 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		While I appreciate the info, it doesn't say anything about force composition.

I think I'll just make something up based on the recon elements in the brigades.


It may very well be that Israeli divisions have no recon battalions at the divisional level...

< Message edited by Ecthelion008 -- 7/26/2006 5:58:34 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/26/2006 9:01:18 PM   
sstevens06


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008

While I appreciate the info, it doesn't say anything about force composition.

I think I'll just make something up based on the recon elements in the brigades.


It may very well be that Israeli divisions have no recon battalions at the divisional level...



The sources I've read indicate there were Israeli recon units at division-level. (See my Golan Heights 1973 and Suez Canal 1973 scenarios:

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?Id=663

and

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?Id=665

respectively.)

I believe the Israelis largely eliminated their brigade-level recon units after the 1967 War (actually they spread the assets around the brigades' constituent battalions). There were some exceptions however: 1st Golani Infantry Brigade and 7th Armored Brigade had separate recon units (7th Armored's recon company was nearly wiped out in the 1973 War).

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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/27/2006 3:47:48 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		You gave the recon battalions in your scenarios tanks and other rather heacy equipment.  Also some Greyhounds... are you sure this is historical?

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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/27/2006 4:30:19 PM   
sstevens06


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008

You gave the recon battalions in your scenarios tanks and other rather heacy equipment.  Also some Greyhounds... are you sure this is historical?



As sure as I can be. I don't have the sources handy right now, but there are definitely references to tanks in several of the Israeli division-level recon battalions.

For example, (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) the recon battalion attached to Sharon's division in the Sinai was described as being equipped with a company of the 'latest Patton tanks, with night-vision gear' (presumably US M-60A1 MBTs) . Also, the recon battalion attached to one of the divisions on the Golan Heights lost 15 out 19 of it's 'light tanks' (I interpreted that as AMX-13s) during the Israeli counter-offensive across the Purple Line into Syria (10 or 11 Oct IIRC).

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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/28/2006 6:07:19 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		Cool, I'll take your word for it.  What book are you taking this out of BTW; I might go take a look at it.

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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/28/2006 3:42:49 PM   
sstevens06


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008

Cool, I'll take your word for it.  What book are you taking this out of BTW; I might go take a look at it.



The information above comes from: The Yom Kippur War: The Epic Encounter That Transformed the Middle East
by Abraham Rabinovich. It is the most recent book I've seen on the conflict (came out in 2002 I think).

Check the References section in the briefing documents for the 2 scenarios above for a complete list.



(in reply to Ecthelion008)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 7/29/2006 11:20:41 PM   
Sandrik

 

Posts: 31
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Status: offline 		Southern Command's Sayeret (Recon) unit, "Ha Sinai" was equiped with OT-62s and PT-76s in addition to tanks (possibly TI-67s). See Sam Katz's Israeli tank Battles. Also Adan clearly indicates the Udgah (Divisional) recon battalions had about 20 tanks assigned to them. Also if you read Dupuy's "Elusive Victory" the recon units involved in operations on the West bank of the Res Sea in 1970 had T-62s.

Al

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/2/2006 7:32:56 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		Not really directly related, but can anyone tell me why Norm put in 2 formations both called the 146th Udga?  One is an armored division that attacks north, the other is a mechanized division that goes south...

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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/2/2006 10:29:18 AM   
Erik2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008

Not really directly related, but can anyone tell me why Norm put in 2 formations both called the 146th Udga?  One is an armored division that attacks north, the other is a mechanized division that goes south...


Haven't got TOAW in front of me, but it could be that the formations are different and (one of them) get activated by certain events. Open up in the editor and have a look at both compositions and turn/event activation.


_____________________________


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Post #: 11
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/2/2006 1:43:24 PM   
Sandrik

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		The 146th armored Udga fought in the Golan under Moshe Peled (and is sometimes known as Udga Peled or Udga Moshe in some sources). Trevor Dupuy reports that the composite Udga (division) in the Sinai under Kalman Sassoon was the 146th Composite Division (sometimes referred to as Udga Kalman or Udga sassooon). The Israelis have never tried to clear up the confusion, and if fact encouraged it. Norm Koger likely didn't have time to do a lot of research (which is understandable) and used Trevor Dupuy's OOB in his Elusive Victory (Pages 612-617) for the belligerents.

Al

(in reply to Erik2)
Post #: 12
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/3/2006 3:12:50 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

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Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		Oh, that makes sense.  I suspected it was something like that.  You would never get the American 1st Armored and the 1st Infantry messed up, but if all your units are called "Ugda" it can get confusing. 

There must be a clearer name for these "Udga".  I suspect we have "Armored", "Mechanized (or is it "Composite") and "Infantry".

I don't have a book with me ATM so if someone can post me a quick list of the Ugda and their proper designations, I would much appreciate it.

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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/3/2006 7:18:13 AM   
Mad Cow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008


There must be a clearer name for these "Udga". I suspect we have "Armored", "Mechanized (or is it "Composite") and "Infantry".


That's what the unit symbols are for.



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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/3/2006 3:20:16 PM   
sstevens06


Posts: 276
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008

Oh, that makes sense.  I suspected it was something like that.  You would never get the American 1st Armored and the 1st Infantry messed up, but if all your units are called "Ugda" it can get confusing. 

There must be a clearer name for these "Udga".  I suspect we have "Armored", "Mechanized (or is it "Composite") and "Infantry".

I don't have a book with me ATM so if someone can post me a quick list of the Ugda and their proper designations, I would much appreciate it.




An Israeli "Ugdah" is a division-size task force with no real fixed TO&E. These were very much combined-arms formations with rather fluid compositions, especially during the 1973 War.

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/3/2006 5:16:12 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

An Israeli "Ugdah" is a division-size task force with no real fixed TO&E. These were very much combined-arms formations with rather fluid compositions, especially during the 1973 War.


So basically a Kampfgruppe.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to sstevens06)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/3/2006 6:02:53 PM   
Sandrik

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		Yes! To the best of my knowledge they still are today. I think they're a bit more like the US Army in that in theory there are Brigades assigned to a Udgah but they'll cross assign quickly as necessary. The IDF brigade is pretty much self contained and the Udgah provides caommand and control of several brigades plus support.

Al

(in reply to golden delicious)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/4/2006 3:47:05 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		So it's really more like how divisions and corps work in larger Western armies?  In the sense that the division is completely self sufficient unit?

Well I suppose I should just name them "Ugda"... Perhaps I should name them after their commanders?

Can anyone give me a list of that?  I couldn't find one online.

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
Post #: 18
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/4/2006 1:23:06 PM   
Sandrik

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		I suggest a trip to the local Library,

1. Trevor Dupuy's "Elusive Victory" is a very good initial source.
2. Refine the brigade designations using Sam Katz's "Israeli Tank Battles"

Honestly as with most things IDF this will also drive you crazy. Some sources use the commanders first name (As I understand it the IDF fashion for the time). Others the last. Not all names translate well from Hebrew to English and there are several varients for some. Sharon's 143rd Armored Udga Recon Battalion commader is a very good example, Ivan Brom/Bron/Brum take your pick! Also some names are very close. There are two armored brigade commanders in the Sinai Avraham Barom and Natke Baram, who are continualy confused by Western Sources.

Also remember that some of the recon units were very important such as Ha Sinai. Take a look at the OOB's from my Chinese Farm & On the Banks of the Suez Scenarios (Sinai 73). They're not perfect but they are the best I could put together after about 20 years of study. On that point, don't drive yourself crazy, you will never know the full IDF OOB nor are you supposed to. Maybe one day in 10 or 20 years someone in the IDF might publish one.

Al

< Message edited by Sandrik -- 8/4/2006 1:26:49 PM >

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
Post #: 19
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/5/2006 12:00:55 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		20 years!  Wow, that's a long time to do anything...

I was wondering Sandrik, are you ever going to do another scenario?  I like your design style. 

Have you considered doing a battalion level, 5km per hex, 6 hour turn, of the Yom Kippur war?  Personally I think those are the best spec for this sort of conflict.  Norm's 73 scenario is fun to play, but the battalion style and the half-day turns really throw things off.

And I will be making that trip to the library

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/5/2006 6:32:37 PM   
Sandrik

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		Well I did one on the Sinai and one on the Golan as seperate scenarios. If I'm understanding you, you'd like them linked. The map you describe is out there but I don't know about the time to get into that type of detail. Like I said I have a 4 month old who is ill, so I do this when time allows.

Al

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
Post #: 21
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/5/2006 11:01:24 PM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		When you say the map is out there do you mean that there is a 5km map of the Middle East already made for another scenario?

(in reply to Sandrik)
Post #: 22
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/7/2006 6:16:28 PM   
Sandrik

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		I thought the Mideast 1967 map was a 5 km map? Maybe I'm wrong, but if so one would just have to update thge roads the IDF built in the Sinai & Golan.

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
Post #: 23
RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/8/2006 2:35:23 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, that map is 2.5 km per hex.

Personally I think if you're doing battalion size, you should go 5 km, especially in the wide open expanses of the Sinai.

So, yeah there is no 5 km map for the whole region that I know of.


Edit, no, I'm wrong, the Israel 48 scenario has a 5 km map!

< Message edited by Ecthelion008 -- 8/8/2006 3:00:01 AM >

(in reply to Sandrik)
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RE: Israeli recon and engineer units, Yom Kippur War - 8/9/2006 2:07:39 AM   
Ecthelion008

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		After spending about 2 hours in the library, I've finally come up with a good brigade level OoB at least for Northern Command.

Can anyone tell me the units that were put directly under Southern Command?  Not the Ugdam those I know; I need to know the corps level units, mostly artillery and recon I suspect.

(in reply to Ecthelion008)
Post #: 25
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