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Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 12:54:29 AM

WITPgamer

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Hi Folks,

I purchased WITP what must be two years ago now, mainly to play the grand campaign. As many will probably remember there were lots of bugs in it back in those days and after a few frustrating starts with units disappearing among other problems I ended up shelving it for a later time.

Whilst I must say that I wasnt happy with the condition this game was released in, I am glad to see that developers are continuing their efforts to get all of the problems sorted out, which brings me to my question. In people opinion, how does the 41-45 campaign play these days? Are there still problems with it and I need to wait just a little longer, or is it finally to a stage where one can comfortably play the entire war?

Thanks for the input!

Post #: 1

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 1:29:35 AM

VSWG

Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
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Ron Saueracker in 3.... 2..... 1.....

Patch 1.8 was a big step forward, squashing lots of bugs, but some are still left - the out-of-sync-bug when strafing ships comes to mind. In my opinion the game is definitely playable. Another patch is is forthcoming, which should solve even more problems.

Besides those bugs, some heatedly debated balancing issues and code problems (both not necessarily "bugs") remain, like the deadliness of a large CAP (uber-CAP) or the land combat system altogether. Some mods try to rectify those "issues", you might want to have a look at them in the scenario section. CHS and RHS for instance offer a better map and OoB, too.

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 2

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 1:41:28 AM

WITPgamer

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VSWG, thanks for the info!

Is there any ETA on the next patch out of interest, it sounds like one more would squash some of the last remaining major issues? Ive had a look at the scenarios you mention and they do look very interesting, thanks. Im not sure where to start when it comes to installing them, but Ive posted in the scenario forum for some help. Thanks!

(in reply to VSWG)

Post #: 3

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 2:02:37 AM

dtravel

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I must be honest. My first thought upon reading the subject line was

(And as for Ron, he had better still be sleeping it off!)

But I took a deep breath, so you'll get a serious response instead.

As a game, it is playable now. Most the major game killers appear to have been squashed or suppressed, so we're down to just the kind of bugs you would normally expect from an initial release. Don and Joe are working hard to deal with those. (Which means we're beginning to see the problems with the design and some of the developers' assumptions, but that's another subject.) They have not said when the next patch will be released but if I had to guess I'd say probably four to six weeks. I wouldn't bet any money on that though.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 4

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 2:05:30 AM

VSWG

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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer
Is there any ETA on the next patch out of interest, it sounds like one more would squash some of the last remaining major issues?

Yes: when it's done!

Seriously, if've seen some mods/devs mentioning that several bugs are being addressed right now, but no ETA yet.

quote:

Ive had a look at the scenarios you mention and they do look very interesting, thanks. Im not sure where to start when it comes to installing them, but Ive posted in the scenario forum for some help. Thanks!

Andrew Brown has an installation guide for CHS on his site:
http://www.bur.st/~akbrown/witp/CHS_documentation/CHS_install.html

I can highly recommend his mod, especially the extended map, which includes Aden and Panama:
http://www.bur.st/~akbrown/witp/map_mod.html

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 5

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 2:28:36 AM

WITPgamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I must be honest.� My first thought upon reading the subject line was � (And as for Ron, he had better still be sleeping it off!)

Um, okay, I take it I have I stepped into some sort of mine field here?

Anyways, thanks for the info guys, Im going to look into some of these mods. Are they anymore likely to be buggy from peoples experience out of interest?

Mike

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 6

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 2:45:52 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I must be honest.� My first thought upon reading the subject line was � (And as for Ron, he had better still be sleeping it off!)

Um, okay, I take it I have I stepped into some sort of mine field here?

Anyways, thanks for the info guys, Im going to look into some of these mods. Are they anymore likely to be buggy from peoples experience out of interest?

Mike

Ron is like me in that he is disappointed with the quality control and some aspects of the game's design. Plus a bit over twelve hours ago as I type this he made several posts while seriously drunk. Not your problem, don't worry about it you didn't do anything wrong.

As for the mods, the way the program was designed and written limits the players' ability to change anything. Even things as simple as adding or removing from the OOB can cause serious problems because some things that no one has hard-coded that way for ten years are hard-coded here and the databases are "eccentric". Basically, WiTP is just the latest release of the same code that has been played with and added to for twenty years; and it shows.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 7

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 3:36:39 AM

WITPgamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
As for the mods, the way the program was designed and written limits the players' ability to change anything. Even things as simple as adding or removing from the OOB can cause serious problems because some things that no one has hard-coded that way for ten years are hard-coded here and the databases are "eccentric". Basically, WiTP is just the latest release of the same code that has been played with and added to for twenty years; and it shows.

Interesting, so this code is based on the old Pacific War game in part? Thank for the info I agree with what you say, it shows and for the price the game shipped for I was hoping for more myself. This game and theatre in general has a lot of potential, at times I feel like I am fighting against the bugs, odd design descisions and interface more so than my oponent. At least thats how I used to feel, Im hoping things may be improved now at least somewhat.

(in reply to dtravel)

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 4:08:08 AM

Bodhi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

Interesting, so this code is based on the old Pacific War game in part? Thank for the info I agree with what you say, it shows and for the price the game shipped for I was hoping for more myself. This game and theatre in general has a lot of potential, at times I feel like I am fighting against the bugs, odd design descisions and interface more so than my oponent. At least thats how I used to feel, Im hoping things may be improved now at least somewhat.

The bugs have been greatly reduced, the basic design and interface haven't changed since it was released. I think it's unrealistic to expect major design/interface changes, but not bug fixes. Of course Joe/Don may surprise me, but I think WitP now is probably close to being as good as it'll get.

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 9

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 4:48:46 AM

WITPgamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

The bugs have been greatly reduced, the basic design and interface haven't changed since it was released. I think it's unrealistic to expect major design/interface changes, but not bug fixes. Of course Joe/Don may surprise me, but I think WitP now is probably close to being as good as it'll get.

Oh I do agree with regards to not expecting any huge changes. I got what I expected and paid for with regards to interface and game design, it was the bugs that were the added bonus that I didnt want and it looks like now, two years later, we are getting close to a final product. Overall I think the game system works quite well, I was merely dreaming about what might be if someone ever designs a game like this from scratch

Mike

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 10

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 7:52:00 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer
Overall I think the game system works quite well, I was merely dreaming about what might be if someone ever designs a game like this from scratch

Mike

We all do, we all do. That's why there is so much discussion about things like the Zero Bonus and how to make ground combat work and limiting torpedoes. We're all getting ready for the next game.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 11

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 8:40:32 AM

mogami

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Hi, WITP does not use code from Pac War.� Both have the same designer.� (I think Mike Wood wrote the code for WITP)� They did not start with Pac War and write WITP code ontop of it. They began with Uncommon Valour and wrote WITP code on top of that.� WITP is the child of Uncommon Valour not Pac War.
I don't expect these guys to ever write a game this scale again.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/29/2006 8:41:22 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 10:15:05 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, WITP does not use code from Pac War.� Both have the same designer.� (I think Mike Wood wrote the code for WITP)� They did not start with Pac War and write WITP code ontop of it. They began with Uncommon Valour and wrote WITP code on top of that.� WITP is the child of Uncommon Valour not Pac War.
I don't expect these guys to ever write a game this scale again.

So the obvious follow-up question would be did they write UV code on top of PW code?

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 13

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 10:33:55 AM

Apollo11

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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

The bugs have been greatly reduced, the basic design and interface haven't changed since it was released. I think it's unrealistic to expect major design/interface changes, but not bug fixes. Of course Joe/Don may surprise me, but I think WitP now is probably close to being as good as it'll get.

Good to see you back...

Any chance of seeing new version of your great utility (containing my vectors)?

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 14

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 12:24:08 PM

rockmedic109

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The game was playable when it first came out. It is far more playable now. This game is played mainly by grognards and they {we} have a very strong desire for attension to detail and very little tolerance of historically incorrect OOBs or a code that might not deliver historical results even though requiring such is an unreasonable expectation.

Yes, a few bugs remain. But this game still delivers the best value for the money and is a lot of fun to play. I imagine it will be a lot of fun to play till I get a computer that is too advanced to run it. The game may not be a perfect sim of the war in the pacific, but it certainly approaches perfection closer than any other game of the same scope and era.

(in reply to WITPgamer)

Post #: 15

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 2:34:00 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

The game was playable when it first came out. It is far more playable now. This game is played mainly by grognards and they {we} have a very strong desire for attension to detail and very little tolerance of historically incorrect OOBs or a code that might not deliver historical results even though requiring such is an unreasonable expectation.

Yes, a few bugs remain. But this game still delivers the best value for the money and is a lot of fun to play. I imagine it will be a lot of fun to play till I get a computer that is too advanced to run it. The game may not be a perfect sim of the war in the pacific, but it certainly approaches perfection closer than any other game of the same scope and era.

correct

(in reply to rockmedic109)

Post #: 16

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 2:35:35 PM

Terminus

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What he said...

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/29/2006 11:09:41 PM

bilbow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

The game was playable when it first came out. It is far more playable now. This game is played mainly by grognards and they {we} have a very strong desire for attension to detail and very little tolerance of historically incorrect OOBs or a code that might not deliver historical results even though requiring such is an unreasonable expectation.

Yes, a few bugs remain. But this game still delivers the best value for the money and is a lot of fun to play. I imagine it will be a lot of fun to play till I get a computer that is too advanced to run it. The game may not be a perfect sim of the war in the pacific, but it certainly approaches perfection closer than any other game of the same scope and era.

Well said

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Post #: 18

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 1:13:45 AM

WITPgamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

The game was playable when it first came out. It is far more playable now. This game is played mainly by grognards and they {we} have a very strong desire for attension to detail and very little tolerance of historically incorrect OOBs or a code that might not deliver historical results even though requiring such is an unreasonable expectation.

I dont think that expecting entire units or 100's of aircraft not to dissappear into thin air is an unreasonable expectation or anything to do with historical accuracy myself. I tried several times to play the full campaign after the game was relased, both against the AI and PBEM, and I continuiously ran into problems. Maybe I was just unlucky but in my opinion the 41-45 campaign was just too long for the engine to handle at that point.

(in reply to rockmedic109)

Post #: 19

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 1:55:50 AM

Terminus

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If you intend to wait for a completely bug-free game, then you'll never play WitP. Ever.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 20

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 2:30:11 AM

WITPgamer

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Maybe I should get a refund then

Seriously though, I never said I was waiting for a bug free game. I have been waiting for a game that doesnt have bugs that ruin the game play experience as this game origionally had, in my opinion, at time of release. Most developers can pull this off, so I dont see why these guys cant, or hanvt already for that matter (as I said, I havnt played it for some time).

(in reply to Terminus)

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 2:36:05 AM

mogami

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Hi, I've played over 20 pbem games since 2004. Not one ever ended because of a bug. My 3 current games all began in 2004 and are bug free.

Of course all 3 games are mild compared to others. They are in mid-late 1943 now. Japan is on the defensive. Nothing not occupied by Japan in actual war has been occupied (except for Port Moresby)

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 2:56:23 AM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

Most developers can pull this off, so I dont see why these guys cant, or hanvt already for that matter (as I said, I havnt played it for some time).�

Exactly. WitP is like no other game. It's full of tons of spaghetti from older games, and is balanced on the edge of a giant razor blade, permanently close to disaster. But oh, what a long way it's come.

I think you should start playing. You might find you have less to bitch about than you think.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 23

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:07:21 AM

mogami

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Hi, You know this has gotten me thinking. Perhaps I should start a thread thats asks
"I posted a bug report"
1. It turned out to be a bug and was fixed
2. It turned out to be a bug and has not been fixed
3. Mogami showed me what I was doing wrong and everything was fine.

I've been looking at files from people with problems for over 2 years and I don't think more then 3 of them have actually been bugs.

"My aircraft will not fly naval strikes"
1. They are on a size 1 (or 0) airfield
2. Range is set to 0
3. airfield too small to fly extended range and all targets beyond normal range
4. No supply
5. No targets (enemy TF not spotted in search phases)
6. weather over targets or airfields (often when "clouds off" selected.

My TF will not lay mines
1. TF contains no minelayers
2. TF not set to "retire"
3. No mines on ML and homeport too small to provide reloads and no MLE present

My TF will not sweep mines
1. Not set to "do not retire"
2. There are no mines in that hex

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/30/2006 3:09:56 AM >

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:15:42 AM

mogami

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

Most developers can pull this off, so I dont see why these guys cant, or hanvt already for that matter (as I said, I havnt played it for some time).�

Exactly. WitP is like no other game. It's full of tons of spaghetti from older games, and is balanced on the edge of a giant razor blade, permanently close to disaster. But oh, what a long way it's come.

I think you should start playing. You might find you have less to bitch about than you think.

Hi, where do you get your notion that WITP has code from any game other then UV? Nothing in WITP is even close to Pac War. Not production, not supply not movement. The scales are changed the menus are changed. Plus I don't think C+++ was even around when Pac war was written but I might be wrong there.

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:18:51 AM

Terminus

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Erm, I honestly thought that the game contained code from Bombing the Reich... Never said that it contained PacWar code (that's pretty preposterous).

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/30/2006 3:19:33 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:22:28 AM

mogami

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Hi, That would be news to me. (never played BTR) I know early in testing someone mentioned that having aircraft frames and engines was along those lines but BTR had many other parts. It may contain the same design idea but I don't think any code was lifted. who wrote the code for BTR? (same desginer and same programmer might give you totally new code but with familiar features)

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Post #: 27

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:23:50 AM

Terminus

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BtR was designed and programmed by Grigsby and Brors.

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RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:29:45 AM

WITPgamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I've played over 20 pbem games since 2004. Not one ever ended because of a bug. My 3 current games all began in 2004 and are bug free.�

Of course all 3 games are mild compared to others.� They are in mid-late 1943 now.� Japan is on the defensive.� Nothing not occupied by Japan in actual war has been occupied (except for Port Moresby)

Are you still using the origional release code though? My problems had nothing to do with the game mechanics you mention above. I had land units and many aircraft simply disappearing, something which was confirmed by others on the forum at the time. I remember the last problem I had was with regards to aircraft disappearing whilst being transported if I recall correctly, though its a long time back now.

Anyways, at the time I found these frustrating to the point where I decided to give it a break. Im hoping all is well now but wanted to get peoples opinion before starting a campaign.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 29

RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? - 7/30/2006 3:30:42 AM

mogami

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Hi, well that makes sense. Gary and Keith work together doing the routines and Mike writes all the interface. All the post release work was done by Mike. So before release everything the player does is Mike and most of what occurs under the hood is gary and keith. (I think) All the add ons however are Mike. (and now Joe and Don)

I was a programming novice when I started testing but have gained a greater understanding of the process. I will say I would really like to see what the design document for WITP looked like before programming began. (It must have been a monster)

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Post #: 30

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