RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 6:49:41 AM

FeurerKrieg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

3. The US bombing campaign continues to strike ball bearing plants rather than giving up just as a crisis started to develop in German industry. Or, alternatively, the US starts pounding infrastructure like railroads and dams early in the campaign.

Likewise the Luftwaffe could have not made the mistake of dumping some bombs on London and kept them on the aircraft factories and airfields in Britain.

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Post #: 181

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 7:02:22 AM

FeurerKrieg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamCole

I do not understand. You have 23000 resources/day, why can't you sustain 23000 HI per day? I was under the understanding that it took 1 resource and 1 oil for each HI to produce 1 supply, 1 fuel, and 1 HI point.

And I do not understand your complaint. From what you posted it seems to me that you have plenty of oil and resources. Maybe you need to move some?

Two points:

-According to the manual, each HI spends 3 oil and 2 resources/day
-Each manpower spends 10 resources/day
-See el cid again topic "Houston, we have an economic trouble" in the Scenario editor topic

Yikes, if this is true then all my economic planning is way off. My gut feeling from what I have seen is that 1oil and 1 res produce 1 supply and 1 HI. I will be interested to see what testing has shown.

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Post #: 182

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 10:28:43 AM

pauk

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as far as i know 1 oil is and one 1 resource is spent for creating 1 HI. Not having problems with my industry - the problem is supply.

Sam, resources aren't required only for HI, manpower also uses resources. Experts for war industry said that app surpluse of 5K resources output will be enough to not drain your resources.....

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Post #: 183

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 1:28:27 PM

Bombur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Its been a long time since I tested all this (I have never actually played a game as the Japanese). It looks like I am going to have to test it again as I don't trust the manual. Just when I was about to release CHS 2.08 as well... *sigh*

No need to test. I made a test and you are right. I�m wrong, and also the manual.

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Post #: 184

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 2:58:19 PM

Andrew Brown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Its been a long time since I tested all this (I have never actually played a game as the Japanese). It looks like I am going to have to test it again as I don't trust the manual. Just when I was about to release CHS 2.08 as well... *sigh*

No need to test. I made a test and you are right. I�m wrong, and also the manual.

Thanks Bombur! I also ran a very quick test of my own. If you were correct it would have thrown the entire CHS economic setup "out the door". Thus my interest in getting to the bottom of it.

Andrew

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Post #: 185

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 3:29:45 PM

SamCole

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

as far as i know 1 oil is and one 1 resource is spent for creating 1 HI. Not having problems with my industry - the problem is supply.

Sam, resources aren't required only for HI, manpower also uses resources. Experts for war industry said that app surpluse of 5K resources output will be enough to not drain your resources.....

I understand about the manpower, but Bombur stated that it took 2 resource to support the HI( since corrected by him ).

(in reply to pauk)

Post #: 186

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 4:25:16 PM

AmiralLaurent

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The Japanese economy is limited by oil and resources... In the normal SRA limits, the limiting factor are the resources (Japan has not enough to sustain manpower and as much HI centers as he has oil).

At start Japan has 781 manpower, 750 oil and 12120 resources (including Indochina, Formosa, Thailand, China and Kwantung).
Daily production: 4500 oil and 15150 -7810 = 7340 resources

The following SRA area have the following centers:
Burma-Malya: 100 oil, 1350 resources, 5 manpower
DEI: 1900 oil, 4920 ressources, 14 manpower
PI: 550 resources, 1 manpower
Hong Kong: 30 resources, 5 manpower
Total: 2000 oil, 6850 resources

Total with the starting Japanese centers: 2750 oil, 18970 resources, 806 manpower

Daily production: 16500 oil, 23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources (if resource centers are not damaged)

Now in the case you have China (less Chungking) and India, you have the following extra production:
China: 150 oil, 1920 resources, 52 manpower
India: 75 oil, 3840 resources, 154 manpower

Now the total of the Empire is: 2975 oil, 24730 resources, 1012 manpower

Daily production: 17850 oil, 30912 - 10120 = 20792 resources (if resource centers are not damaged)

No more resource problem, but the new limit is not so high

So Japan can support (without reducing strategic reserves):
_ 4500 HI centers at start
_ 15400 HI centers with "historical conquest", and no damage
_ 17850 HI centers with PzB (or Sneer vs Raverdave) empire

And has 13400 at start, so increase of capacity is only of 33%. If all Asia is conquered. And no damage has been suffered, or at least all had been repaired.

So nothing dramatic IMOO... the only gamey aspect I saw is the ability of the Japanese player to stop immedialty all ships for building aircraft for example ... As I said above, all those decisions could have been made, but IMOO should be valued political points.

Now the utilisation of HI:
at start: 2000 yards = 6000 points, 550 armament/vehicle = 3300 points, 4100 points remaining for AC and expansion

Common figures later in the war will be 2200 yard = 6600 points, 700 armament/vehicle = 4200 points, total 10800 points, leaving in PzB case about 7000 points for AC.... almost 200 single engine AC per day. Counting level bombers, that should be 5000 AC per month, or 60 000 per year... but that counts research.

Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

So two options: historical Japan never could use all his conquests... probably correct, as all centers in Burma and those in Kendari-Amboina-Sorong area are hardly usable... These areas have 200 oil and 1280 resources, let's say they may be used at 50% and that is 600 Hi points lost daily, about 4-500 AC a month.

Historical Japan then probably increased shipyards and armament factory more than we do... Probably because the needs were more important than for us (and they didn't stop Shinano...).

If someone with an Allied game in 1944 can count the total Allied output (both on board and outside it), then we should compare it with the above numbers...

(in reply to Andrew Brown)

Post #: 187

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 4:37:39 PM

Andy Mac

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Nice Analysis I can do it tonight after work the only question is do you want all aircraft or just 1st and 2nd line. e.g ignore P36, Buffalo's etc or should I split it into categories and include them ?

i.e. category 1 being aircraft I have at least 1 sqn of or will get in next few months so actual operational aircraft?

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Post #: 188

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 7:58:47 PM

AmiralLaurent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Nice Analysis I can do it tonight after work the only question is do you want all aircraft or just 1st and 2nd line. e.g ignore P36, Buffalo's etc or should I split it into categories and include them�?

i.e. category 1 being aircraft I have at least 1 sqn of or will get in next few months so actual operational aircraft?

A full list may be useful but may be too long.... If you don't have the time, I would divide them into great category like modern / useful / outdated. Useful being planes like A-20B that have upgrade available but may be used without problems (well, with escort).

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Post #: 189

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 9:42:12 PM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
and 15150 -7810 = 7340 resources

23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

What are these subtractions for?

Jim

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Post #: 190

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 9:48:07 PM

AmiralLaurent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
and 15150 -7810 = 7340 resources

23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

What are these subtractions for?

Jim

Sorry didn't explain

Total production = 23 847
Used by manpower center = 806 * 10 = 8060
Available for HI : 23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

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Post #: 191

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 10:00:46 PM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
Sorry didn't explain

Total production = 23 847
Used by manpower center = 806 * 10 = 8060
Available for HI : 23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

Thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

Japan produced a total of 76,000+ aircraft during the entire war, so it is far greater than a 50% production increase. Assuming only 30k for 1942 and then 45k for 1943 and 1944, and then just 20k for 1945, that's about a 100% increase in aircraft production while the allies get about 20% of what they historically had if we go by F6F production.

144 month from Jul 1944 means they'll produce 1,872 F6F's by the end of Aug 1945. 15k+ F6F's were produced historically.

Jim

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Post #: 192

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/10/2006 10:06:44 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

This is not 100% historical simulation because devs started from the one premise (and that was clearly stated long time ago from officials, IIRC):

#1. Japan is allowed to do limited changes in their war industry to simulate that Japan could turn their production to the total war production

#2. Allies are already on total war production and these numbers represent that (are these numbers are 100 % correct that's another story)

My recollection is that the reason Japan is allowed to make changes is because their industry is also a target. It's hard for me to imagine that any "officials" would have stated that the Japanese had a "total war production" button that IRL they forgot to push. Although, it's possible, I guess. I wish I had seen such a comment before spending my money on the Matrix version of MOO3.

It seems pretty simple to me. IMO:

Japanese production should mirror their actual production when the Japanese player keeps it unchanged and similarly supplied. Tweaking should only provide modest improvement and there should be a downside for any change made.

US production should be equal to historical rates subject to some change depending on how things are going vs. the Japs and (abstractly) in Europe. By '44/'45 the US should pretty much have "enough" of everything. They should also get ship platforms based on RL schedules with the ability to rename them if necessary- no auto-replacements.

The Japanese are overpowered in nearly every possible way. The Allies are overpowered in some key areas as well. Damn "play balance" and get it as accurate as reasonably possible. Then set victory conditions appropriately. I have no hope for WitP ever achieving this but here's hoping for WitP 2. I'd even buy it on the first day if such a goal is at least attempted.

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Post #: 193

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:11:16 AM

Bombur

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quote:

Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

-Yes, but this is best case scenario, in practice, it seems to be hard to capture all SRA withouth significant damage to oil and resources, and so in most likely scenario production will be about the historical levels. If the Japanese player fails to make all historical conquests, however, it won�t be able to produce even historical numbers of AC. Your best case data also fails to consider the effect of submarine warfare and strategic bombing, which, in real life, limited Japanese production. When all these variables are taken into account, then you will have pretty historical production. To keep all HI working also needs a lot of micromanagement and I doubt to what extent there is a human player able to keep Japanese industry running at 100% capacity all the time.

< Message edited by Bombur -- 8/11/2006 1:17:16 AM >

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Post #: 194

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:19:03 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

144 month from Jul 1944 means they'll produce 1,872 F6F's by the end of Aug 1945. 15k+ F6F's were produced historically.

Jim

If we're going to throw numbers out we need to throw the correct ones....

IRL Hellcat production ceased in November 45 with 12,275 being built - broken down as follows:
c.4423 F6F-3
c.7852 F6F-5 (of which 930 went to the (brits)

According to the game database we have in game:

F6F Hellcat - 144 month from 7/43 - Total through 11/45= 144x29m = 4176
Hellcat II - 50 month from 7/43 - Total through 11/45 = 50x29m = 1450
F6F-5N - 144 month from 12/43 - Total through 11/45 = 144x24m= 3456
Total in game F6F production = 9082

How many aircraft arrive with reinforcing groups if any?

Difference of roughly 3200 Hellcats. Not all Hellcats fought in the Pacific although the numbers which went to Europe did not approach 3200 to the best of my knowledge. Does anyone know how many were retained in the US for training if any?

< Message edited by treespider -- 8/11/2006 1:24:21 AM >

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:22:08 AM

dtravel

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If people are going to reduce Allied production to reflect aircraft used for training and pre-deployment losses, then you need to do the same to Japanese production.

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Post #: 196

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:25:31 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

If people are going to reduce Allied production to reflect aircraft used for training and pre-deployment losses, then you need to do the same to Japanese production.

I wasn't suggesting that ...

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Post #: 197

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:25:50 AM

mdiehl

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And if Japan is to be given the capability to expand production then Allied production should be allowed to grow at a correspondingly greater rate. The US never came close to maxxing out war production capability. By 1944 scheduled ship deliveries were being cancelled and a.c. production cut back in many areas, and rationing substantially eased.

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:30:13 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
If we're going to throw numbers out we need to throw the correct ones....

Oops sorry got it wrong by a year, was going off memory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
IRL Hellcat production...

As soon as you explain to me how IRL Japan produced some 140,000+ aircraft I'll listen to RL discussions about allied production.

The US alone should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 by 1944. I just gave you the actual Allied production numbers for all allied planes produced in the game, and Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production. Now take into account that about 3/4ths of allied production is obsolete for most of the game (or in Russia's case never gets used) and you have a disparity in production that is pure fantasy.

I don't care if we have to give the US 500,000 fantasy aircraft made up out of thin air. If Japan gets to use fantasy aircraft the allies should get them as well.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 8/11/2006 1:31:20 AM >

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:33:08 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

And if Japan is to be given the capability to expand production then Allied production should be allowed to grow at a correspondingly greater rate. The US never came close to maxxing out war production capability. By 1944 scheduled ship deliveries were being cancelled and a.c. production cut back in many areas, and rationing substantially eased.

And Admiral King was worried about the shortage of dock workers that occurred late in the war... Although the US was no doubt the most prodigous manufacturer during the war it was not the boundless cornucopia that people like to think it is.

My only intention with my post was to correct Jim's flawed analysis of F6F production in the game. Nowhere did i suggest that Japan's production figures were correct or incorrect.

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:35:17 AM

treespider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

As soon as you explain to me how IRL Japan produced some 140,000+ aircraft I'll listen to RL discussions about allied production.

The US alone should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 by 1944. I just gave you the actual Allied production numbers for all allied planes produced in the game, and Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production. Now take into account that about 3/4ths of allied production is obsolete for most of the game (or in Russia's case never gets used) and you have a disparity in production that is pure fantasy.

I don't care if we have to give the US 500,000 fantasy aircraft made up out of thin air. If Japan gets to use fantasy aircraft the allies should get them as well.

Jim

Nowhere in my post did I state that Japan's figures were correct or incorrect.

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:46:34 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
Nowhere in my post did I state that Japan's figures were correct or incorrect.

No problem, but I wish people would stop counting the night fighter versions in game production as part of F6F production. They can't be used to replenish carrier losses and there are far to few groups that use them to ever be able to take advantage of that pools large number of air frames in any real way.

I should add that even though my numbers were slightly flawed, 20% of 12,275 is 2,455 so the premiss of my original point still applies it just goes up to 30% instead of 20% when taking into account your revised numbers. 144 air frames times 26 months is 3,744, still far fewer than they should get.

Jim

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:46:48 AM

Andy Mac

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Treespider I think we are toalking the same basic numbers but by my calcualtion the allies are due c 8900 top line F6F DAY Fighters during the war and the get c 4200 so roughtly 40 - 50% part of it is as you rightly point out because the Nightfighter variant is too highly represented

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Even in PDU's those Noightfighter variants are useless to the allies as they are NF's and cannot be upgraded to from normal sqns

The only Hellcat I am interested in is the day fighter variant.

And I disagree with your numbers Tabpub as for me its the Day fighter variant thats important

F6F-3 4,402 First production variant.
Subvariants
included:

- 18 conversions to F6F-3E evaluation night fighters.
- 149 (some sources say 205) F6F-3N night fighters.
- Unknown number of F6F-3P reconnaissance conversions.
- 1 temporarily converted to XF6F-2 with turbocharged
R-2800-21. Some sources give 4,403 F6F-3s,
apparently due to "double counting" this machine.

252 fighters were provided to the British FAA as the
Hellcat I.

so c 3900 day fighter variants for the USN alone

F6F-5 7,870 Second production variant (some sources give 7,868).
Subvariants included:

- 1,434 (some sources say 1,529) F6F-5N night fighters.
- Several hundred F6F-5P reconnaissance conversions.
- Several hundred F6F-5K drone conversions.
- A number of F6F-5D drone controller conversions.
- Two converted to XF6F-6 with R-2800-18W and
four-bladed propeller.

930 of total F6F-5 production was supplied to the
British FAA as the "Hellcat II". Most were
"Hellcat F.II" fighters but 70 (some sources give 80
or 85 or 95) were F6F-5N night fighters and designated
"Hellcat NF.II". Some were converted to a
reconnaissance configuration and designated "Hellcat
PR.II" (unarmed) or "Hellcat FR.II" (armed).

So about 5,000 DAY Fighter versions of the Hellcat forthe USN

Over a 24 month production run the allies should be recieving about 8900 day fighter variants for the USN alone or about 340 per month

Now allowing for training, drones, wastage etc a rate of c 300 per month seems reasonable not 144 as we have now. For my game this would be very significant as I would not have pulled off the Marianas with that kind of strength in depth

Andy

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 8/11/2006 1:47:24 AM >

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 1:48:34 AM

Andy Mac

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The nightfighter variant is getting c 1700 more at the expense of the day pool and day production is down by c 3000 now allowing some for training and other theatres although most carriers in USN in Europe were CVE's with Wildcats then I think the rate should be 300 per month not 144 for the critical day fighter variant and reduce the nightfighter to c 50 or 60 per month.

I think it is unfair to just lump the day and nightfighter variants together in that way.

Andy

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 8/11/2006 1:52:32 AM >

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Post #: 204

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 2:12:08 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

The US alone should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 by 1944. I just gave you the actual Allied production numbers for all allied planes produced in the game, and Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production. Now take into account that about 3/4ths of allied production is obsolete for most of the game (or in Russia's case never gets used) and you have a disparity in production that is pure fantasy.

More like an 8:1 Us/Japan production ratio.

In regards to "historical" Japanese production, if we were to sharply limit Japanese production to only what was historical, we would be making the same mistakes the Japanese made IRL. I, for one, want a chance to avoid those mistakes if I can. So I want the ability to concentrate production in key areas. At least allow the increase of factory capabilities to 1944 levels and let imports decide the amount of prodcution possible.

I think the way to look at Japanese production for game purposes is to determine what was possible, not what was actually accomplished IRL. We have to assume a couple of what ifs for the moment. What if the US did not practise total submarine warfare? (Many allied players do not). What if the home islands were not bombed into rubble? (Most games don't get that far) What if the Japanese were able to bring in all the materials they needed? What would the capablity be then?

See, I believe that late war Japanese production is ultimately in the hands of the allied player. The Japanese player can expand all he wants but if he is not getting the oil and resources to the home islands to make the HI he needs, he can't produce anything and that expansion will become useless and will cost plenty of resources that he is going to need just to keep supplies flowing... if he can.

By the same token, US production in late 43 and early 44 was pretty close to maxxed out due to skilled manpower shortages. That is not to say they didn't have the resources or the room to expand, it is to say that manpower became the limiting factor. Now in mid-late 44, the US began drastic cutbacks in shipbuilding followed by other war materials. The longer it took to build something, the more likely it was going to be cut.

I do believe that the Allied player does get the short end of the stick on some production items such as with the Hellcat. I don't know how many actually served in the Pacifc but from the posts I've seen, it should be considerably more. I believe that something on the order of 20% of Hellcats were kept stateside for training, testing and research purposes. That still leaves quite a few that should available to the allied player. I am sure that there are other aircraft issues as well.

As far as pilot pools go, I believe that it should be tied to the loss rate and to the amount of supply found in the home islands. IRL, the Japanese greatly expanded their pilot training programs in 1943. This isn't reflected in the game. Tying it to supply or resources would have one good game effect. It would force Japanese players to keep more supply in the home islands. Basically whatever supply remained after all production and unit costs were taken into account, then whatever remained would decide the number of trained pilots and their quallity.

While we're on the subject. The one thing that pilot traing or production does not reflect in the game is the variability of production and training, especially in regards to Japan. The allied player also has a clear advantage in production because his production is not required to ramp up over a period of time. I hardly doubt that the US produced 144 Hellcats a month the moment they were released for production. The US player also doesn't have to worry about the conversion of factories producing obsolete aircraft to newer models. Its all invisible to the allied player.

My main point is that there are production issues on both sides of the fence and that it would be irresponsible to advocate fixing only one side while ignoring the other.

Chez

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Post #: 205

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 2:23:57 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
if we were to sharply limit Japanese production to only what was historical, we would be making the same mistakes the Japanese made IRL. I, for one, want a chance to avoid those mistakes if I can.

By the same token, US production in late 43 and early 44 was pretty close to maxxed out due to skilled manpower shortages.

Classic, on the one hand you want a flexible fantasy based production system for Japan that is freely flexible for Japanese players to tweak as they see fit and on the other hand you state the US was maxxed out so no extra stuff for them.

If Japan gets to use non-historic aircraft then the US should get them as well.

But let�s first start by giving the US at least what it had to begin with and then limit Japan to realistic levels as well. Then we can hold a discussion about what might have been.

Right now we have a pure fantasy game that doesn't even remotely reflect history other than using names of historical areas of conflict.

Jim

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 3:46:07 AM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production.

Do you base this on actual available numbers in a game or on the listed current build rates?

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 3:47:47 AM

RETIRED

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"By the same token, US production in late 43 and early 44 was pretty close to maxxed out due to skilled manpower shortages. That is not to say they didn't have the resources or the room to expand, it is to say that manpower became the limiting factor. Now in mid-late 44, the US began drastic cutbacks in shipbuilding followed by other war materials. The longer it took to build something, the more likely it was going to be cut."

Sorry Chez..., but this one you got wrong. US Production wasn't nearly as dependent on "skilled labor" as that of the Axis because of the Assemply Line and Mass Production Practices, and while labor allocation was a problem from time to time it was more a matter of workers seeking the best paying jobs. US Ship Production Orders started to scale back in 1944 simply because it was obvious that what had already been scheduled was going to be sufficient to win the war. DE orders were cancelled right, left. and center in the 2nd half of 1943 when the U-Boat Menace was seen to be under control. B-29's were still ramping up, and 1944 A/C production was enormous (by weight it exceeded that of ALL the other powers - Axis and Allied - that year).

US Industrial effeciency was a well established fact. In 1938, the Depression was still running it's course in America and idling hundreds of factories and workers. Both Germany and Japan had pretty much pulled themselves out of it with the process of ramping up for War. Yet 52,000,000 US workers produced 32.2% of all the World's Manufactured Goods. 36,200,000 German workers managed only 10.7%, while 34,100,000 Japanese workers managed a pitifull 3.5%. Japan never managed to improve that 1:10 production ratio during the entire war. US "Production per man-hour" rose steadily throught the war, far exceeding Japan's small gains. The Japanese put great emphasis on increasing A/C Production in 1944, cutting back on many other things to do so. But by weight, they were still just making 10% of US Production - 65,500.000lbs of Japanese aircraft to 650,6000,000lbs of American ones. All the "Fighting Spirit" in the world isn't going to make up for that kind of descrepancy. And the US had the trained pilots and aircrews to man all those planes - this was one area you are correct in. In 1943, the US had trained more than 15 times as many pilots, aircrew, and ground service personel as Japan had (and trained them to higher levels). When losses were less than expected, pilot training in 1944 was cut in half (to just over 40,000 a year - and the educational, physical, and training levels were increased - at a time when they were being slashed to the bone by other participants). The US Army was very greatfull to get the sudden huge influx of high quality manpower that this cut in Air Corps demands gave them. Though the recruits who thought they had signed up to fly were dissapointed to be handed a rifle instead.

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Post #: 208

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 3:52:26 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Do you base this on actual available numbers in a game or on the listed current build rates?

I based it on Admiral Laurent's great analysis above of Japanese production figures. I actually toned down possible production by 15k aircraft in 42 and 25k in 45 to make up for the expansion period and allied destruction of industry in 45.

Potentially (given just historical gains) Japan could possibly build 40k in 42, 45k in 43 and 44 and 35k in 45 for a total of 165,000 airframes if the allies don't do anything to prevent it.

It would be great if some Japanese players would give total air frame figures for their games in 1943 and 1944 so we can verify if Admiral Laurent�s figures actually play out in game. I suspect they do since its simple math, not a lot to it really.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 8/11/2006 3:55:18 AM >

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Post #: 209

RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? - 8/11/2006 3:56:12 AM

Nikademus

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Ok. Just wanted clarification.

Every game save i've been sent thus far have shown indications that Japan's economy wasn't building the projected numbers due to shortages of resource/oi and/or Heavy Industry. Similar indications were pointed out to me by another observer in PzB's game as well.

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