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Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV

 
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Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/13/2006 9:50:10 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		The question has risen many times over the years why mortar and machinegun units have Speeds less than the regular infantry, with whom they were to support. Reasons have been given, discussions have ensued, and many opinions presented during that time.

It has been suggested that these crews were not less "speedy" than their rifle-toting compadres, but were able to move at roughly the same rates. Also, since some of the crew for them were also riflemen toting ammo, they shouldn't be penalized for doing so.

We are contemplating raising the Speeds of certain of these units, according to the following criteria:

* Mortars of 82mm and smaller caliber are considered "company assets" and would be expected to keep up with the advance
* Machineguns classed as "Medium MGs" are considered "company assets" as well, and would also be expected to move at the same rate as the advancing platoons
* Mortars in the 90mm-107mm range are somewhat more cumbersome to move, and would therefore be limited to a Speed of 2/3rds that of regular infantry
* Machineguns classed as "Heavy MGs", unless done for granularity in formation construction, would be considered too heavy and cumbersome to move easily, and would also be limited to a Speed of 2/3rds that of regular infantry
* Mortars over 107mm in caliber will remain unchanged, as these weapons typically required some sort of non-human transport to carry them



Examples of these criteria:

1. Regular infantry has a Speed of 9. So an 81mm Mortar Squad or a 7.62mm MG34 MMG Squad would also have that speed, allowing them to cross up to 4 hexes of Open terrain in one turn, the same as the Rifle Squad can.

2. A 90mm Mortar or .50cal M2-HB HMG would have Speeds of 6, and would only be able to cross 3 hexes of Open terrain in one turn.

3. A 120mm Mortar would remain unchanged, with its Speed of 1, allowing it to move only 1 hex per turn.

Some of these units already have these Speeds implemented; the HMGs mostly have Speeds of 6 now, and the MMGs and some Mortars are either 8 or 9 in Speed. We are looking to both raise the rates of most Mortars, and any MGs which may have been missed in previous revisions.


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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/13/2006 10:02:11 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		On the surface I will agree with all of the above. As long as they cannot fire until the next turn after movement.

Japanese knee mortar comes to mind as one that maybe wouldn't have a delay.

Could be a nightmare with older scenarios but it's time for some new ones anyway.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/13/2006 10:18:58 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		We won't be changing the "loss of shot" penalty for these units; only switching their Class would do that, short of rewriting the code.
Light mortars like the Japanese Knee Mortar suffer the same game code "loss of shot"; if the weapon is part of an infantry unit, it doesn't lose all shots for movement, but if the unit is Classed as a Mortar or Machinegun type, the "shot loss" occurs.


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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/13/2006 10:55:13 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I, of course agree the company-size mortars and MG's should all move at the exact same speed as the rest of the company.As stated in my comments at the Depot, my unit divided the mortars and MG's by pieces to the bigger guys,and the rest of the team carried the ammo.
The unit moved in "open-march", which on the road was a column on each side of the road, each man approx 20 feet apart from the next. Both columns moved at the same pace and there was no lagging, regardless of weight carried, nor size of the soldier.
IMHO, SP has ALWAYS had this wrong.
The penalty of not being able to fire the HMG or heavier mortars(above approx 76mm) already compensates for the time to either assemble or knock down the piece, but there should be NO penalty for movement whatsoever.
The uniformity of speed continued "off road" as well. Nobody was "left behind" in any rice paddies nor jungle mountainsides, (as I recall)..
Thank you for considering the change....

< Message edited by m10bob -- 8/13/2006 11:02:57 PM >

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/13/2006 11:37:34 PM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

You marched down the road at a speed of 4 movement points, the same as my outfit. Nothing in the game prohibits that. Carrying heavy equipment will and should reduce the rate at which troops sprint. Maximum movement points of 9 is the sprint rate.

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

Bye...

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I, of course agree the company-size mortars and MG's should all move at the exact same speed as the rest of the company.As stated in my comments at the Depot, my unit divided the mortars and MG's by pieces to the bigger guys,and the rest of the team carried the ammo.
The unit moved in "open-march", which on the road was a column on each side of the road, each man approx 20 feet apart from the next. Both columns moved at the same pace and there was no lagging, regardless of weight carried, nor size of the soldier.
IMHO, SP has ALWAYS had this wrong.
The penalty of not being able to fire the HMG or heavier mortars(above approx 76mm) already compensates for the time to either assemble or knock down the piece, but there should be NO penalty for movement whatsoever.
The uniformity of speed continued "off road" as well. Nobody was "left behind" in any rice paddies nor jungle mountainsides, (as I recall)..
Thank you for considering the change....


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Post #: 5
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 12:27:48 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
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From: Combat Information Center
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

You marched down the road at a speed of 4 movement points, the same as my outfit. Nothing in the game prohibits that. Carrying heavy equipment will and should reduce the rate at which troops sprint. Maximum movement points of 9 is the sprint rate.

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

Bye...



So you're telling me that while the rifleman CAN sprint up to 200 meters in a turn, the mortar team can ONLY move 50 meters. No more than that.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 12:39:11 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

No. I did not assign a 1 movement for mortar crews. One of you folk did. I just claim that machine guns and mortars should have fewer movement factors than rifle squads not porting heavy weapons.

In my example, the mortar crew would most likely make two trips, based on current crew size assigned. Increasing the crew size (or reducing the ammunition allotment) would increase the distance the mortar team could travel in one turn. The heaviest item for thje mortar crew only weighs 35 pounds (plus about the same amount for personal equipment). But, even then, carrying 35 extra pounds will slow down a trooper a bit, when sprinting. Proper ammunition for a non-motorized 81mm mortar crew would probably be closer to 12 HE rounds and zero smoke. The ammunition assigned is for an in place mortar team with one days ammunition.

I was assigned to a 105mm howitzer battery for a while. The crew could easily man handle a gun at probably 3 hexes a turn on a road, for a turn or two. But, the ammunition would take another hour to move 3 hexes, without the truck.

When we carried a medium machine gun, the M-60, Private Lavinghouse carry the tripod, as it was heavy and awkward. I carried two boxes of ammunition and Lance Corporal Dickers carried the gun. We could not sprint as quickly as without the gun. But, we did move across country with the rest of the platoon, at walking pace.

Also, we chose not to add fatigue to the game. Carrying the extra weight would require more rest breaks, which would slow down the unit over a period of time. And, of course, if we had added individual endurance and strength values for each trooper, we could gain a greater granularity in game mechanics at the expense of playability.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

You marched down the road at a speed of 4 movement points, the same as my outfit. Nothing in the game prohibits that. Carrying heavy equipment will and should reduce the rate at which troops sprint. Maximum movement points of 9 is the sprint rate.

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

Bye...



So you're telling me that while the rifleman CAN sprint up to 200 meters in a turn, the mortar team can ONLY move 50 meters. No more than that.



< Message edited by Mike Wood -- 8/14/2006 1:01:12 AM >

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:00:40 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		error

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:07:24 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

error



Thank goodness. I was getting a headache trying to find the changes with each edit.

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Post #: 9
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:09:19 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

Ya. Should probably have composed and then posted. Free flow of thought. Kept editing. Trying to make self understood.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

error



Thank goodness. I was getting a headache trying to find the changes with each edit.


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Post #: 10
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:42:08 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
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From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		Flash: I just recently tested a scenario, with 60mm mtrs, the squad kept up a pace the mortar crew could maintain. I decided to rush the outpost and overrun. The squad went ahead of my mortars to get into a positon to rush, the mortars moved up and set up behind the (SCRIMMAGE ?) line. After the mortar barrage lifted the infantry swarmed in and took all the objectives. When walking, motars and infantry go at the same pace, nada problemo, when running/double timing etc. the mortars could not keep up in the real world. Plus I was always told that you move at the pace of the slowest man in your unit whenever possible.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:54:35 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.


We did not limit ammo bearers to just the 5 man crew, and neither did you, I'm sure..
Being a better man?. That's not an issue.We were warriors.
You were a Gyrene, I was a Ranger.
We will always be...........


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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:56:47 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chief

Flash: I just recently tested a scenario, with 60mm mtrs, the squad kept up a pace the mortar crew could maintain. I decided to rush the outpost and overrun. The squad went ahead of my mortars to get into a positon to rush, the mortars moved up and set up behind the (SCRIMMAGE ?) line. After the mortar barrage lifted the infantry swarmed in and took all the objectives. When walking, motars and infantry go at the same pace, nada problemo, when running/double timing etc. the mortars could not keep up in the real world. Plus I was always told that you move at the pace of the slowest man in your unit whenever possible.


Right. The light mortar units are ok; they can pretty much keep up with the grunts. The question has been the 81mm mortar types: some have asked why they are limited to a 1 Speed, when the troopers would be expected to move along with the rest of the platoon/company.

I suppose the differences in opinion come down to whether you see movement in the game as "combat movement", or "non-combat movement". By these I mean combat movement is the type of movement a squad uses when it's in the fire zone: slow, methodical advancing with overwatch, low crawling, long pauses to assess the environment, etc. And non-combat movement is the type of movement used by troops who aren't in the actual fire zone, or at least don't realize they are: column marching, taking the easiest terrain path, double-time marching, etc.

Same for the MGs, particularly the HMG units. Is the crew hustling to get the piece from Point A to Point B, or are they taking the most protected route to a new firing position? Movement rates would depend on which type you believe the game does, or should, represent.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 1:59:17 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Well in a non grunt unit in the Marine Corps circa 1990 to 1995 one went at the pace of the fastest ignorant officer irregardless of established route speed for marches. And if you fell out that same officer would see to it you got extra training.

And forget running as a unit. If you couldnt do a 6 minute mile in some of these units on the run, you were a slacker and a problem Marine.

BUT back on subject. As far as I can tell units only have ONE speed. Is it route march or is it sprint speed? If it is sprint speed we have a reality problem anyway since one can do that speed as long as no enemy fires on you.

If it is permanent sprint speed, then dont change the speed of support units with heavy or bulking equipment. If it is march speed then do make the changes.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 2:02:54 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I think units in the game list max speed, since I, as commander, decide their actual speed. If I want them to creep along, they will move one hex. If I want them to sprint into action to plug a hole, they will. See what I mean?



Goblin

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 4:30:16 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
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Status: offline 		Vehicles can and do break down, but our infantry are supermen.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 5:36:08 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Am I confusing "speed" with number of hexes that a unit can move per turn?

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 6:15:42 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Speed as a Unit Rating is the number of Movement Points a unit has to move with. Each Terrain type costs so many MPs to move into; for example, Prinary Roads cost 1 MP for Wheeled, 4-Wheeled, and Tracked units, and 2 MPs for Foot units. MPs are translated to a "speed", which is usually related in MPH or KPH.

So in the OOB, each Unit has a Speed value that sets how many MPs it has. Infantry with a Speed of "9" have 9 MPs, and as each Mixed/Open terrain hex costs 2 MPs, a Squad can typically move 4 hexes (8 MPs, 200 meters) in one game turn.


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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/14/2006 2:45:59 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		If the fire during penalty were removed, IMHO the squad level mortars would be appropriate.(The American 60mm comes to mind), as it could be fired without the baseplate (as an expedient.)
The accuracy is not dependent on the baseplate, the plate lowers the pounds per square inch upon discharge and prevents the barrel from burying itself.A really good 11c(mortarman)can hit a target within eyesite with the sometimes 1st,and certainly the 2nd or 3rd round.
The company level (76mm and larger) would be too impractical to fire without the plate..
During Ranger school,we had a mortar instructor who allowed the class to manually place a "tree stump,M1" anywhere on the instruction field.He then set up different mortars,(different nations), and proceeded to hit said stump repeatedly, to prove it was not "pre-zeroed", and that accuracy was possible.We observed his demonstrations on different objects all morning, with equal results.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/15/2006 3:33:10 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		I got a problem with this.  Now, American light mortar squads had no problem in man-handling those 60mm weapons and keeping up with the grunts. 

The 81s are a whole different story.   In jungle warfare, the 81s were usually left behind, unless transport was available. This was seldom the case. 

Same goes for 30 cal HMGs. The M1917A1s weighed some 80 lbs apiece, and were NOT designed to accompany an advancing  force. That what the 1919A4s and A6s were for. 

You guys do what you want, but it's nothing more than going gamey and acquiescing to the PBEM crowd.  

You've said that it shouldn't matter to us solo players, who get our jollies by beating up on the AI.   If the scenario is designed well, you are NOT gonna easily beat the AI. 

For PBEM,  I'd think that a good player should be restricted to historical limits.  I get the impression that some wanna turn it into a free-for-all. 

Enhanced is a great improvement, so I hope you'll stand your ground and defend the integrity of the game.  Don't dilute it.      

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/15/2006 5:11:30 AM   
FlashfyreSP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I got a problem with this. Now, American light mortar squads had no problem in man-handling those 60mm weapons and keeping up with the grunts.

The 81s are a whole different story. In jungle warfare, the 81s were usually left behind, unless transport was available. This was seldom the case.

Same goes for 30 cal HMGs. The M1917A1s weighed some 80 lbs apiece, and were NOT designed to accompany an advancing force. That what the 1919A4s and A6s were for.

You guys do what you want, but it's nothing more than going gamey and acquiescing to the PBEM crowd.

You've said that it shouldn't matter to us solo players, who get our jollies by beating up on the AI. If the scenario is designed well, you are NOT gonna easily beat the AI.

For PBEM, I'd think that a good player should be restricted to historical limits. I get the impression that some wanna turn it into a free-for-all.

Enhanced is a great improvement, so I hope you'll stand your ground and defend the integrity of the game. Don't dilute it.


Gunny, you make it sound like we're selling off the family cow. The whole point was to garner people's opinions on this; enough pf the "martyr" bit. We tried to make the Enhanced Mod compatible with both styles of play; it ain't gonna be perfect for either one, but I hope it's better than before.

Folks, this whole thing is simply gathering input from you, the players. Too many complaints over the years that the OOB Teams were doing eveything in the dark, and not letting any of us in on the nasty little secrets. Well, we are trying NOT to do that. But, if asking for opinions is seen as catering to one group or another, we won't ask. Simple as that.

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/15/2006 7:27:49 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		IIRC,doesn't the game penalize accuracy of fire the further a unit moves?(If a unit moves 8 hexes, its' accuracy goes in the toilet compared to a unit that only moves 1 or 2 hexes?)..If this is correct, then a commander will consider this anytime he moves anything.
My desire for an increase of speed in squad level support weapons is to bring them up from the rear as quickly as the rest of their squad, NOT to allow them to "charge" the enemy,(as has been nearly suggested)..
And 81mm's WERE carried into battle in that way.
Not a "gut feeling", I was one of the "volunteers" (if the mission called for it..)
In AIT, all soldiers have marched with 70 lb packs, not counting some of the other stuff.
The intent was to get people in shape.
Hell, in high school, I was a gym assistant and got "A's" for doing 50 push-ups..Figured that was the max, but 7 years later, in basic training, we were doing 200!!!!!(I was an old man of 23 then), the kids around me were 17-19, and there is a huge difference,even then, but basic gets you prepared for all sorts of wonderful stuff.Like being "volunteered to carry tubes or baseplates,etc..
It's a marvel what an individual can do if the army sez he can.They can't make those things any lighter, but they sure made shoulder mount carriers for them!!!
Come to think of it, maybe its' also impossible to ask a fella to go out on a field where total strangers might shoot at him, for no reason at all!

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/15/2006 9:38:28 AM   
Twotribes


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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		You have missed the point. While it might be possible to move a tube up, it is NOT possible to move the current load of ammo they list. And if one cuts the ammo to 10 to 12 rounds there is little reason to have the tube.

As to the complaint people are complaining..... humm .... that IS how we give our opinion. Exactly how much are you going to pay attention to an opinion if all we say is "I agree" or " I disagree".

Try to not take every complaint as a personal attack on you, your skills or our lack of appreciation for the work you do.

Just to clarify , the vast majority of people here APPRECIATE your work, your time and your dedication to improving this game. We wouldnt be here if we didnt like the game. When we disagree with you , again, the vast majority are not picking on you or belittleing your time or effort. We are pointing out things we think need changed or are wrong. It is our opinion. That is what this board is for.

The fact most of us PLAY the enhanced Version should show you we as a community like it. We appreciate your work. But at the same time, you have been around the gaming community long enough to know we are NEVER satisfied. And most of us are vocal on the things we personally dont like. Even the little nitpicky stuff.

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Post #: 23
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/15/2006 10:36:35 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		"As to the complaint people are complaining..... humm .... that IS how we give our opinion. Exactly how much are you going to pay attention to an opinion if all we say is "I agree" or " I disagree". "

You have misread Flash's comment..
What he said was that over the years, people had been complaining about OOB issues, and Alby and Flash took the time over the past 15(?) months to seek input from *anybody* who was willing to offer any evidence of changes which might be made to improve the problems.It was like a great "wish list",gone public, and everybody could read it, add to it, and even vote on it, before the changes were made..
At the Depot, "gut feelings" and theories were pretty much quashed, and the changes (IMHO) were not so much for "balance", but for history.
For this reason, anybody offering thought on possible changes was made to also offer historical evidence of the info.
While their work (and product) has been offered for free to anybody who might want it, there are still those who blatantly want to crap on those guys.
I just don't get it.......
If somebody does not like the EM, don't use it.
Now, lock your heels troops, do an about face and move out smartly..............


< Message edited by m10bob -- 8/16/2006 2:40:55 AM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/15/2006 10:58:52 PM   
soldier

 

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Status: offline 		I would have thought that setting up and lugging heavy equipment over rough terrain in combat would slow you down eventually more than a man carrying a rifle and pack. I suppose the Marines and Rangers were trained to do it but I doubt all other nations had such a demanding training regime and fatigue (which is not in the game) would take some toll on those units. Maybe only elite formations should have the ability ?
Most nations probably didn't think they would be moving their mortars and guns much at all in 1939 when static trench warfare was the norm before Blitzkrieg showed them the way

< Message edited by soldier -- 8/15/2006 11:11:58 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/16/2006 1:54:56 AM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

I would have thought that setting up and lugging heavy equipment over rough terrain in combat would slow you down eventually more than a man carrying a rifle and pack. I suppose the Marines and Rangers were trained to do it but I doubt all other nations had such a demanding training regime and fatigue (which is not in the game) would take some toll on those units. Maybe only elite formations should have the ability ?
Most nations probably didn't think they would be moving their mortars and guns much at all in 1939 when static trench warfare was the norm before Blitzkrieg showed them the way


Mike Wood brought up a good point on the Depot forum, when he commented about the weight distibution of the ammo amongst a "5 man team"..While a larger unit would distibute over the entire group, maybe we need to look at giving the larger company sized mortars less ammo, and force them to purchase an ammo trailer, (like that 2 wheeled man-powered cart they put John Wayne's character on, in the movie "The Longest Day"?) I believe that was Col Vandevoort?

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Post #: 26
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/17/2006 12:21:38 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		The compromise I use when deploying 81mm mortars in an advance is either to have them towed by jeeps w/trailers or hauling them aboard an LVT.   This is for the Marines. They didn't have self-propelled mortar mounts.

BTW, I still have a copy of a version 1.1 German OOB that Mike Wood sent me. The 81mm GrW has a crew of 5, and a speed of 1.



< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 8/17/2006 12:24:44 AM >

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RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/17/2006 2:29:06 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		Makes sense to me.

Recon
Semper Fi

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Post #: 28
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/17/2006 3:08:21 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I got a problem with this. Now, American light mortar squads had no problem in man-handling those 60mm weapons and keeping up with the grunts.

The 81s are a whole different story. In jungle warfare, the 81s were usually left behind, unless transport was available. This was seldom the case.

Same goes for 30 cal HMGs. The M1917A1s weighed some 80 lbs apiece, and were NOT designed to accompany an advancing force. That what the 1919A4s and A6s were for.

You guys do what you want, but it's nothing more than going gamey and acquiescing to the PBEM crowd.

You've said that it shouldn't matter to us solo players, who get our jollies by beating up on the AI. If the scenario is designed well, you are NOT gonna easily beat the AI.

For PBEM, I'd think that a good player should be restricted to historical limits. I get the impression that some wanna turn it into a free-for-all.

Enhanced is a great improvement, so I hope you'll stand your ground and defend the integrity of the game. Don't dilute it.


Gunny, you make it sound like we're selling off the family cow. The whole point was to garner people's opinions on this; enough pf the "martyr" bit. We tried to make the Enhanced Mod compatible with both styles of play; it ain't gonna be perfect for either one, but I hope it's better than before.

Folks, this whole thing is simply gathering input from you, the players. Too many complaints over the years that the OOB Teams were doing eveything in the dark, and not letting any of us in on the nasty little secrets. Well, we are trying NOT to do that. But, if asking for opinions is seen as catering to one group or another, we won't ask. Simple as that.


Kevin, I'm definitely not a martyr. A little common sense should apply, though. The Germans mounted mortars on armored chassis to keep up with a rapid advance. The 81mm mortar was not meant as an element of a rapidly-advancing sturmtrupp assault.

A ground-hauled 81 has a speed of 1 for a reason. Yeah, you can schlep 'em on vehicles, that's fine. That's what jeep trailers are for. However, to expect the 5 or 6 man crew to go huffing and puffing, carrying the 100-lb mortar, ammo crates AND their personal weapons, and keep up with a sprint and halt assaulting infantry column or line is just silly. Really.

If it makes you feel better, double the speed to 2. That 100m/yds for every 3-4 minutes. Could you haul that load any faster? Keep that up for a mile and a half. You're still falling behind the infantry. What do you do?

Battalion commander, via radio: "Why the hell aren't you set up? I asked for fire support three minutes ago!"

Silly stuff, guys. Either find a vehicle, or set up in place.

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)
Post #: 29
RE: Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV - 8/17/2006 3:19:22 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline
quote:

If it makes you feel better, double the speed to 2. That 100m/yds for every 3-4 minutes.


No, a Speed of 2 is still only 50 meters in that 3-5 minute turn. It would require a Speed of 4 to reach the "magic" 2-hex (100 meters) per turn ability. So you all are saying a mortar crew can't move 100 meters in 5 minutes and set up their mortar? Forget them carrying the entire ammo load; many units in the game are "oversupplied" for their capacity. Assume the ammo is moving forward by use of ammo bearers, using whatever means they have available (carts, rucksacks, mules, or their own feet). Consider the crew as moving only the weapon, their personal gear (much of which is actually back at the company CP), and enough ammo for a few minutes firing (possible 10-12 rounds). Now, why can't they move at least 100 meters in 3-5 minutes?


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