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A Stupid Story(no relation to WW2) - 7/26/2000 6:22:00 PM   
Musti

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tampere, Finland
Status: offline 		I will list a few things I have learned during my service in the Finnish Defence Forces 1997-1998. I served as an Anti-tank corporal(squad leader to you, yanks!)in the Kainuu Brigade, Kainuu Jaeger Battalion. The training I received dealt mostly with AT weaponry(Apilas and LAW) and infantry weapons(LMG, 12,7mm NSVT and such). 1. The guy wielding the LMG always loses his/her front teeth! (Especially true when you're advancing in a waist-deep snow.) Falling down usually results in hitting your chin or teeth in LMG's front sight. 2.Never try to fight against Finnish Mechanized Infantry in the snow. They seem to be wearing snow-shoes, the kind of things that allow you to walk on water(frozen water,that is!)They'll jump on you when you least expect it. Without skis or snow-shoes a squad's average speed is 100 yards per hour. 3.It is possible to dance around a T-54, without the tank crew noticing it. 4.During battle rehearsals, do your stupidest, gung-ho stunts when the Battalion Commander is around(they'll award you with extra R&R!) Could you please incorporate some of these unfortunate elements in the SPWAW? Especially the front teeth thing? (only joking!) It would be nice to hear from other Forum user's military experiences, if any? [This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

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Post #: 1
- 7/26/2000 7:47:00 PM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline 		Musti you and I had the same job. I was an anti-armor infantryman with the 1st Cavalry division. I did my time as an asst. squad leader. We used to love using the exhaust from our regiment's M1 Abrams to dry off and warm up in the morning.(just remove your poncho first or it will melt to your body) Another neat trick we all learned was how to make bombs from our MREs. Does the Finnish Army place as high a value as ours on people that "acquire" equipment from sister units? I have always been impressed with the Finnish army. Thanks for posting. There is nothing like the look of fear in the eye of a tank crew that gets killed without knowing where the attack came from. Camouflage is the infantrymans friend. When the infantry gets a "fire and forget" ATGM the day of the tank will be over. Death by wire....Armor afire!, sven [QUOTE]Originally posted by Musti: [B]I will list a few things I have learned during my service in the Finnish Defence Forces 1997-1998. I served as an Anti-tank corporal(squad leader to you, yanks!)in the Kainuu Brigade, Kainuu Jaeger Battalion. The training I received dealt mostly with AT weaponry(Apilas and LAW) and infantry weapons(LMG, 12,7mm NSVT and such). 1. The guy wielding the LMG always loses his/her front teeth! (Especially true when you're advancing in a waist-deep snow.) Falling down usually results in hitting your chin or teeth in LMG's front sight. 2.Never try to fight against Finnish Mechanized Infantry in the snow. They seem to be wearing snow-shoes, the kind of things that allow you to walk on water(frozen water,that is!)They'll jump on you when you least expect it. Without skis or snow-shoes a squad's average speed is 100 yards per hour. 3.It is possible to dance around a T-54, without the tank crew noticing it. 4.During battle rehearsals, do your stupidest, gung-ho stunts when the Battalion Commander is around(they'll award you with extra R&R!) Could you please incorporate some of these unfortunate elements in the SPWAW? Especially the front teeth thing? (only joking!) It would be nice to hear from other Forum user's military experiences, if any? ------------------ Give all you can all you can give....

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Post #: 2
- 7/26/2000 8:07:00 PM   
Schrubbery

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Musti: 1. The guy wielding the LMG always loses his/her front teeth!
And the guy firing an Apilas gets a black eye from the recoil. Concerning myself, my pleasure was to carry ammunition of 95S58, or Musti (the oldish BFG of Finnish AT-platoons). I wish I had one of those Pack Mules of SPWAW...
quote:

Originally posted by Sven: There is nothing like the look of fear in the eye of a tank crew that gets killed without knowing where the attack came from.
Nor is there anything like the feeling when you are supposed to ambush the enemy but then it turns its turret straight towards you, outside of your range. "Geez, is that a 125mm, or are you just happy to see me?"

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Post #: 3
- 7/26/2000 8:38:00 PM   
Musti

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tampere, Finland
Status: offline 		One way to describe firing an Apilas: You get sand thrown in your eyes and get hit in the back of your head with a shovel. I heard they don't use Mustis anymore in the FDF. Mustis were replaced with TOW-2's and AT-4 Spigots...As a weapon, the Musti is obsolete, but dragging it around forests and ridges made the anti-armor companies demanding units to serve in. Nowadays everything is so easy...

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Post #: 4
- 7/26/2000 10:37:00 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		3.It is possible to dance around a T-54, without the tank crew noticing it. I'd give money to see a video of this. so, which tune were you all dancing too as you circled this man-o-war? ;-)

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Post #: 5
- 7/26/2000 11:01:00 PM   
Mac_MatrixForum


Posts: 295
Joined: 4/11/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Musti: I heard they don't use Mustis anymore in the FDF. Mustis were replaced with TOW-2's and AT-4 Spigots...
I suppose they are still used in the m/80 infantry brigades.
quote:

As a weapon, the Musti is obsolete, but dragging it around forests and ridges made the anti-armor companies demanding units to serve in. Nowadays everything is so easy...
Yeah, just driving around in a Pasi... they don't learn to respect "pulling miles of cable" through the forests during winter when it's raining(water) (oh did I mention they were going uphill all the time and they were lost ) or the reliability of the GAZ-66. Well I suppose anything that is painted green weighs a lot so who cares what they're carrying since it's bound to be green. One thing I will never forget is when a mechanized infantry company supported by a panzer company assaulted some infantry on a front 3m-100m from our position (wasn't on either side at that moment, "neutral"). Spent the next half an hour watching the action with some binoculars. Memorable moment, at least for a tank freak. I heard some complaints from some AT-chaps about our GAZ blocking their firing area, but what was I supposed to do when I had orders to be there. I wasn't even on their side and they couldn't blow me because I was indestructable. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 6
- 7/26/2000 11:56:00 PM   
David

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 7/11/2000
Status: offline 		Musti, ahhhh the good ole days. I started as a priviate in the 2d Ranger Battalion. Carried a 90mm recoiless rifle for a while. I hated that thing. Spent three years in Alaska in a airborne unit. I have a healthy respect for snow and cold now. Really I don't care if I ever see snow again. Ever been on snow shoes carrying a full rucksac and weapon, and fall in snow armpit deep? Ended my career as a mech inf company commander? Came up short commo wire on a field execise once. Some other unit "borrowed" it I assume. My answer! Next field exercise sent out patrols from each of the platoons. Mission, bring back two spools of commo wire. I never wanted for commo wire again. WB, perhaps we need a forum for old and new soldiers to swap lies.....er war stories. Might be entertaining.

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Post #: 7
- 7/27/2000 3:48:00 AM   
Schrubbery

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Musti: I heard they don't use Mustis anymore in the FDF. Mustis were replaced with TOW-2's and AT-4 Spigots...
That is what I call good news, then they won't be needing my services if a war breaks up. Nor yours... Or just wait a minute, FDF had Maxim's and Suomi SMG's in wartime OOB till the early 90's. Damn! Where did I throw that military passport???

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Post #: 8
- 7/27/2000 4:17:00 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I'd say the 'Musti' is still in the wartime strength as they purchased improved ammunition for it just about two years ago. The new ammo has a hardened tip that is supposed to break the reactive cell without detonating it so that the HEAT charge can do it's work undisturbed. Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 9
- 7/27/2000 10:37:00 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		Things from my service. 1. You can't deploy from a moving Buffel in thick bush, no matter how many times you practiced it on open ground. 2. When riding in a Buffel, always have a hand free to hold the rail. The sides can drop down and throw you out. 3. The terrs can't hit sh*t, but they're not shooting at sh*t, they're shooting at you. 4. The hot water from a Vickers barrel jacket does NOT make good tea. 5. Always carry a second water bottle, as they may take yours for the Vickers. 6. All Rhodies claim to be members of elite units, but only the ones that look like armed tramps are. 7. Combat exercises will be won by the following in increased likelihood. A. NSM Active Service. B. CitForce. C. Permanent Force. Reason, NSMs want to show off what they know and always make stupid mistakes, CitForce just wants to get it over with and get back to their homes and jobs. Permanent Force does this for a living. 8. Middle watch is the worst. 9. Even if you don't smoke, cigarettes are more valuable than Krugerrands in the bush. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

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Pamwe Chete

(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 10
- 7/29/2000 1:31:00 AM   
Billy Yank

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 5/18/2000
From: Northern Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Mac: One thing I will never forget is when a mechanized infantry company supported by a panzer company assaulted some infantry on a front 3m-100m from our position (wasn't on either side at that moment, "neutral"). Spent the next half an hour watching the action with some binoculars. Memorable moment, at least for a tank freak.
I once watched a Brigade (2 Battalions of M1 tanks, 1 Bn of mech infantry in M113s) assault a Cavalry Squadron (Bn sized). Those Cav boys were sneaky. I was at one of their defensive strong points manned by 3 M-60 tanks and two ITVs (TOW armed M113s). The M1 Company tried to send a couple platoons across the open ground to our front. The defenders let them get away from the cover of the trees, then lit up all eight tanks. Before the attackers could regroup, the cavalry pulled out to fall back to the next defensive position. As our crew were packing up our cameras, the attackers rolled through. Behind the first set of fighting vehicles came a M577 (the command version of the M113). As it slowed down to go around the berm the M-60s were hiding behind, a soldier stepped out of the woods, lobbed a grenade into an open hatch and dashed away. I'd hate to come up against those guys in a real fight. ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.

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Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 11
- 7/29/2000 4:07:00 AM   
Seth

 

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline 		Man, this is a fun topic to read. I had a work-study job in college with the campus police. College being in San Antonio, all the officers were ex-military. I used to love hanging out with them and hearing their hilarious stories about excercises. The one thing they all agreed on was that it seems like much more fun afterwards, when you're not filthy, tired, and hungry.

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Post #: 12
- 7/29/2000 8:12:00 AM   
albert

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 6/24/2000
From: usa
Status: offline 		My dad says that for sheer pleasure humpng 57mm ammo thru the hills of Korea in the winter of 51-52 is an experience that no one would ever forget

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Post #: 13
- 7/29/2000 11:54:00 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		My section got misrouted on a ountertracking exercise and wandered into a national park. The platoon following never found us, but the anti-poaching patrol did. We had stopped for water when a voice rang out, "Put aside your weapons and put your hands in the air. You are under arrest. This is your only warning. " Then we heard the same thing again in Afrikaans. I was sent to investigate. A little fellow half my size jumped out of the bush in front of me, knocked me down and shoved his rifle in my mouth. Seconds later the rest of my section came out with hands up. Then their tracker said, "Oh sh*t, it's only a bunch of rocks. I thought we had some poachers here." Their team leader told us we were lucky, usually they shoot first and ask questions later when they see armed men. They bundled us in a lorry, with our weapons, and drove us back to base. The thing was, my platoon was top in tracking and countertracking. We always caught our quarry and evaded our pursuers. But we never had any idea that the gleos (Game Law Enforcement Officers) were on our spoor. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

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Pamwe Chete

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Post #: 14
- 7/30/2000 11:52:00 AM   
Kluckenbill

 

Posts: 278
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Lancaster, PA, USA
Status: offline 		My most enlightening military experience came during REFORGER 1977. I was an M60A1 Tank Platoon Leader. This was the era of the "active defense" and we thought that we were pretty good and that we actually had at least some chance of stopping the Russian hordes. Anyway, we )(3rd AD) and the units from the US were the defenders and the 11th ACR and some other units were playing the Russians. 2 or three days into the exercise I was down to 3 tanks (our Company Team was down to 6 tanks and some infantry.) when we were assaulted by the entire 11th ACR using Russian mass assauly tactics. Admittedly we were not in the greatest defensive position (not my fault, I was a lowly LT at the time.) but when I saw 200+ armored vehicles rolling at top speed crest the ridge about 1500 meters to my front I realized that in the "real thing" we'd have had no chance. We would have certainly gotten a few of them, but there were just too many of them for us to have gotten away.

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Target, Cease Fire !

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Post #: 15
- 7/31/2000 2:39:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline 		Am I the only one here who keeps looking at the member profiles looking for guys in my old unit? 8th/60th, 2nd Armor Sven, never heard "Death by wire, Armor afire!" course I predate that stuff a bit, gives me a very uncomfortable feeling. I saw a track get disabled by rolling over some barbed wire and cutting the oil seals.

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PR

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Post #: 16
- 8/1/2000 4:41:00 AM   
Billy Yank

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 5/18/2000
From: Northern Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Pack Rat: Am I the only one here who keeps looking at the member profiles looking for guys in my old unit? 8th/60th, 2nd Armor
My wife was assigned to 2nd Armored Div HQ from '88-'89.
quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: Anyway, we )(3rd AD) and the units from the US were the defenders and the 11th ACR and some other units were playing the Russians.
My wife and I were at HHC, 3rd AD from '86-'88. The story I related above happened at Hoenfels between one of the maneuver brigades and the division cav squadron. SPEARHEAD! ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.

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Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 17
- 8/2/2000 4:21:00 AM   
Hoplite

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/31/2000
From: Dayton, Ohio
Status: offline 		I've never served in the military, I work in research. I can respond to sven's comment that the day of the tank will be over if a fire and forget atgm is ever fielded. The U.S. army is in the process of going to production of just such a weapon. It is called the Javelin and is an IR guided Fire and Forget weapon that pops up over the tank and fires it's warhead through the top armor. The unit itself consists of a sophisticated IR sight which can be attached to disposable missle tubes. I think its premature to call the day of the tank done, however. Opposing nations will undoubtedly develop counter measures to confuse the missles, just as happens with aircraft now. The Soviets were big advocates of this approach. They fielded a system which imitated the flare on the back of a TOW missle, confusing the wire guidance system.

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Post #: 18
- 8/2/2000 4:52:00 AM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline 		Sorry a little occupational pride . Seriously I love armor. I think that Shinseki is making a huge mistake in advocating "light" armor at the expense of R+D for a replacement for the Abrams. If he wants a force of LAV riding cowboys he oughta join the Marines and leave the Army alone. The Army should focus solely on warfighting and leave the peacekeeping role for our Marine brethern. The tank is not a peacekeeping tool-it is a peacemaking tool. I hope that someday soon we analyze our defense spending priorities and focus on preparing for the next fight we have.(this is not a macho "let's kick butt post" but we will most likely have to fight again... sadly) America has a bad habit of not pushing for newer and better weapons systems after a victory. Our national goals should focus on the defense of our(and our allies)interests, and not being "supercop" for the planet Earth. Cutting funding from LOSAT(a kinetic tank killer), and the TOW3 tankbreaker programs is almost criminal. We love to deploy our light and Airborne(and Airmobile)infantry at the drop of a hat-they deserve to be able to defeat enemy armor if necessary. I think the day that the infantry can field a "dumb" kinetic weapon capable of penetrating enemy armor as effectively as a 105mm sabot round the economics of weapons production will diminish the role of the tank. That day may be far off, but the day will come. Cannons may be the "king of battle" however the infantry will always be "queen". Follow Me!, sven p.s. all this talk about atgms is really making me antsy for SPWAW Modern. Thanks Matrix and keep up the good work.
quote:

Originally posted by Hoplite: I've never served in the military, I work in research. I can respond to sven's comment that the day of the tank will be over if a fire and forget atgm is ever fielded. The U.S. army is in the process of going to production of just such a weapon. It is called the Javelin and is an IR guided Fire and Forget weapon that pops up over the tank and fires it's warhead through the top armor. The unit itself consists of a sophisticated IR sight which can be attached to disposable missle tubes. I think its premature to call the day of the tank done, however. Opposing nations will undoubtedly develop counter measures to confuse the missles, just as happens with aircraft now. The Soviets were big advocates of this approach. They fielded a system which imitated the flare on the back of a TOW missle, confusing the wire guidance system.
------------------ Give all you can all you can give....

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(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 19
- 8/2/2000 5:00:00 AM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline 		The Javelin is a nifty weapon from what I have read.(I have been out of the Army a while) Personally I think that the research into a laser guided high speed weapon along the lines of the Starstreak(iirc)British SAM are extremely promising. The missles only need pointing at the target and the Supersonic speed usually ensures accurate delivery at short to medium range. Infantrymen like me have been "burying" the tank with "that next" weapon system for years and the tank is still around. The Israelis were supposed to get slaughtered by ATGM wielding Arabs and it didn't quite work out that way.(but they sure did get hurt by them) Most soldiers I know are still very big on "combined" arms. I am just voicing "wishful" thinking. Tanks are very scary to us ground-pounders. The conventional wisdom still dictates that the best tank-killer is another tank, and for the time being that is correct.(air power is quickly catching up though) First Team, Sven ------------------ Give all you can all you can give.... [This message has been edited by sven (edited August 01, 2000).]

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(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 20
- 8/2/2000 10:56:00 AM   
Hoplite

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/31/2000
From: Dayton, Ohio
Status: offline 		I agree with you that the U.S. seems to be moving away form the heavy armor that has so long dominated the battlefield. The M1 is darn near invunerable from the front. Unfortunately, it takes a thirsty gas-turbine engine to move that frontal armor around and it costs a lot of money to manufacture those large slabs of Chobham armor. The problem I see is in weapons like the Javelin or the Bill or some of the air dropped autonomous munitions. They all purposely dodge around the frontal armor of the tank in order to attack the top where the armor is thin. If the vehicle designer were to thicken the top armor to defeat or deflect this attack, then that armor weight has to come from somehwere else or the tank will become too heavy to use normal bridges. With weapons designers able to conitnually change the attack method of guided munitions, I see it is a losing battle for conventionally armored vehicles. What's the solution? I think it will have to be a combination of countermeasures, speed, and lethality. A tank of twenty years from now will have to be able to kill atgm's in flight, confuse the guidance system, and kill the attackers before they get their missles off. In other words, tanks will have to go to an active form of defense. I think that lighter, faster moving platforms will be ideal for this kind of fighting. It's just a perk that you will also be able to move an armored brigade in 20 or so C-17 loads.

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(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 21
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