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Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 8:18:58 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I am surprised how impotent Allied 1,000 lb bombs are against Japanese BBs. They never seem to get a penetration even against the older Japanese BBs and BCs. I am assuming that it is due to the fact that they were HE bombs and not really designed for BBs. (I am fighting around the Coral Sea in early 1943) Did the Allies develop and use more powerful 1,000 lbs AP bombs later in the war?



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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 8:32:29 PM   
jrlans


Posts: 180
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		get enough hits and it racks up fire damage nicely. However your main weapon against IJN BBs is torpedos put a couple of fish into a BB and it will have trouble not becoming a submarine. Also if you have any B-25s from devloped bases 5 or higher there is a chance they will cary 2000lb bombs which can penitrate some BBs armor

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 8:37:05 PM   
KDonovan


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quote:

Also if you have any B-25s from devloped bases 5 or higher there is a chance they will cary 2000lb bombs which can penitrate some BBs armor


really??..i did not know that. Can this happen at any date?..does it have to be after lets say 1/43

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 8:39:29 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

quote:

Also if you have any B-25s from devloped bases 5 or higher there is a chance they will cary 2000lb bombs which can penitrate some BBs armor


really??..i did not know that. Can this happen at any date?..does it have to be after lets say 1/43

I did not know this either.

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 8:52:10 PM   
greg_slith


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Status: offline 		I thought that a patch addressed this some time ago. If I recall, SBD's and/or SB2c's were able to lug 1000lb AP's. I remember that the patch required a restart (since it was a Data base issue) and I opted not too ( was in the middle of the war).

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 9:04:48 PM   
jrlans


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From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Its either B-25s or B-26s and im not sure if there was a date involved or not. There might be but i noticed it when watching combat replay in my game v. the AI. If you want ill research it a bit and get back to you

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 9:06:09 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Well, this game is about six months to a year old (real time) and I have not seen any 1,000 APs.   We are playing a modified South Pacific scenario as a play test and the weakness of the Allied 500 and 1,000 lb bombs vs the old UV standard are creating some scenairo problems. One clever tester just sent the entire IJN and three divisions to Noumea in late 1942-right before the Allies get the fifth and six carriers (a no Midway scenario) or had replaced devistators with avengers and the results were horrible. He just parked his BBs in the same hex with his invasion force and all of the Allied SBD went for the BBs and ignored the transport. The BBs took hit after hit wracking up sys damage while the transports casually unloaded. The devistators were mostly useless and he just walked into Noumea-game over. Gonna take some tweaking. The ability of the bettys to carry 1500kg AP bombs to North Aussie really skews things as well. No safe ports beyond Rockhampton after the Japanese take PM. A different game from UV fer sure.

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 9:12:33 PM   
McDuck

 

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Status: offline 		In ver 1.50 , player requested feature #18 , after aug 42 allied db's may sometimes use 1000 lb ap bombs . Starting in 43 allied heavy bombers may sometimes used 2000 lb ap bombs . I remember having read that in IRL the gp bombs were set to go off as soon as they hit but that even a slight delay would have made them much more effective against light and moderate armor by getting into the machinery spaces , etc .

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 9:16:54 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jrlans

Its either B-25s or B-26s and im not sure if there was a date involved or not. There might be but i noticed it when watching combat replay in my game v. the AI. If you want ill research it a bit and get back to you



It´s not just B25, B26 but every US bomber with high enough bomb load and a squadron with good exp. and a base with sufficient supply.

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 9:29:53 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		At some point the USN must have modified their 1000 lb GP bombs to make a 1000 lb semi-armor piercing bomb akin to the 250 kg SAP used by the Japanese.  I do remember a diagram of the fusings for the different types of bombs, including a semi-armor piercing type, but can't remember exactly what publication (official USN is all I remember).

IRL, HIJMS Haruna, Hyuga and Ise all were sunk by bomb hits and near misses near Kure in July 45.  The number of hits/near misses sustained was fairly large - somewhere between 10 and 20 for each.

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 9:43:42 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		The effect of HE bombs hitting near the ships lying anchored in shallow harbors would amplify the explosions helping create a "mining effect" All of which would have been exasberated by the fact that the ships were not in the best of conditions and only had caretaker crews.

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 10:00:13 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Penetration results are absolute. If penetration value of weapon is greater than armor, then it penetrates, and damage can be made. Otherwise, you get almost nothing.

True, non-penetrating hits will cause fires. But there is very extremely unlikely that it will ever cause sufficient float damage to put the ship down. Those fires will generate sys and a small amout of float. But you won't sink a BB with non-penetrating bomb hits. I put 61x 1000# bombs on top of Hei. She wouldn't go down. I had to chase her down to within TBD range, and then 8 torps finished the job. Granted, after 61 bombs, everything top-side except the big guns was demolished, and she probably had about 50 sys dmg (and would have been in the yards for a while). But without a fish, you're not going to sink a BB with just bombs. 

Name			Range	Effect	Penet	Accur	Dud	Ceiling
100 lb GP Bomb		0	100	17	5	0	0
250 lb GP Bomb		0	250	25	12	0	0
500 lb GP Bomb		0	500	45	25	0	0
1000 lb GP Bomb		0	1000	70	50	0	0
2000 lb GP Bomb		0	2000	110	80	0	0
4000 lb GP Bomb		0	4000	140	90	0	0


Hm. Looks like my reference table is old, it doesn't have the 1000# AP bombs.

The armor values of the Japanese BBs are as follows:

Kongo Class - 130
Fuso/Ise Class - 145
Nagato Class - 150
Yamato Class - 212

They're actually overstated in some cases (Fuso/Ise start the war with a reinforcement that occurred in 1943, and similar issue for Kongos, but we won't go down that road for now).

I don't know the penetration value of the 1000# AP is. But considering 

Name			Range	Effect	Penet	Accur	Dud	Ceiling
100 kg AP Bomb		0	150	35	11	0	0
250 kg AP Bomb		0	370	65	26	0	0
800 kg AP Bomb		0	1200	170	75	0	0


And 1000# AP = 454 kg AP

It probably has a penetration of about about 105. I'm not sure that the 1000# APs will penetrate BBs (but if y'all have seen it done, then it's using a different multipler than .25 which is about what the 250kg and 800kg bombs are using).

Tis the nature of the game. There are rules (penetration must be greater than armor). And that's just the way it is (I don't have to agree with it).

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 8/23/2006 10:01:57 PM >

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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 11:14:58 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		listen to Feinder will help you 

simplyfied : I quote mighty Mogami : "the Torp is the weapon to sink BB's."




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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 11:25:24 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		And FYI,

Oli (as Allied) has first-hand experience that my 4 Kamikazes (Judys as I recall) do little more than bounce off a SoDak class BB.

Grr...

-F-

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Post #: 14
RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 11:27:28 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		they usually bounce off like flies on a window.

do not try this on AKs, CVEs of course


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RE: Allied 1,000 lb bombs - 8/23/2006 11:31:00 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Come a little closer to Oki...

You know you want to...


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