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How to avoid sync problems? - 9/3/2006 11:13:52 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		Is there a way for allied players to avoid sync problems? I really like watching some of the action, but most of the time it is totally out of sync with the combat report. This makes watching the action useless and even annoying.
Are allied players restricted to combat report reading or is there a work-around?

And finally: Will this ever be fixed???

< Message edited by BlackVoid -- 9/3/2006 11:14:52 PM >

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RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 12:37:40 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Personally I think there are way too many possible reasons for the sync issue, despite what you may have read regarding 100' strafing attacks being the culprit. If it was the reason, it would have been fixed by now because alot of effort was made by Keith Brors and Frag to nail this problem. Soooo, I'd say it can't, or more importantly, won't be fixed.

Takes most of the enjoyment out of the game for the Allied player. Major problem.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 2
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 4:12:54 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		IMO, the Synch Bug is a symptom of much deeper issues with the program.  A similar problem can occur in solo games.  If you save a game and then execute that turn several times without making any changes you should get exactly the same results.  Doesn't happen, it will vary each time.

My guess is that there is some problem with the way random numbers are handled and to fix it would basically require a complete rebuild of the whole code nearly from scratch.  And everything in the program depends on those random numbers.

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This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


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Post #: 3
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 2:33:30 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		I have not read about the strafing issue and about every turn I replayed in my last PBEM there was a huge difference. There was no strafing involved at all.

This is really BAD and makes playing Allies a LOT less fun.

Thanks for the info, I was about to start 2 PBEMs, but I think I will find some other game to play instead of WITP.

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RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 2:51:51 PM   
jwxspoon


Posts: 167
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Myrtle Beach, SC USA
Status: offline 		I'd say 75% of my PBEM turns are in synch.  As allies I always ensure that I get the combat report, the operations report, and the 001 combat save from my opponent.  It's fairly easy to spot a synch error early in the turn and while it was irritating early I've learned to be happy with the two text reports.

jw

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 5
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 5:06:33 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline 		I am involved in 6 PBEM games. Five as the allies. I rarely if ever suffer from the Sync bug, but it does happen on occassion.

It also happens in a game for a turn then gets back in sync for a few then goes again.

As others have said get the text file of the combat and operations report off your opponenet not just the combat replay.

Apart from straffing the main rumour about avoiding this is playing just one game per session. Especially the Japanese player should try and make sure he has not played other turns before he generates the combat reply and sends it.

There are many reasons why not to play PBEM. It's a big commitment and the game certainly has it's flaws. But the out of sync issue is not a significant one IMHO. It's just not common or persistant enough to be a significant issue. If you were having significant problems then it might be an issue with something you are doing that is inadvertently causing it/making it worse because while most of us have had this at times it's not a huge issue for most of us.

Do you Esc to get through the turn quicker? Or have some of the reports off / unanimated? Restart the application before you play the combat replay? Do you or your opponent tamper with the settings often?

I don't know Just try doing something different and see if that works

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Post #: 6
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 7:13:41 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		there is a  work around to fix that, I had the same problem 3 months ago...cant find it though ( search funktion here isnt any good )

iirc, the japanese player have to turn OFF every combat details, animations, reports etc.

then load and run the turn he got from the allied player. so the jap player has 1 turn without any information.

then japan player sents the file to the allied player, he runs it like usual and sent it to the jap lpayer again. japan now turns everything again ON.

game is in sync now ( it helped me and I have it from other members who told me that it helped them as well )



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RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 7:14:55 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		here is the link

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1149856&mpage=1&key=sync&#1149856


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Post #: 8
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 7:39:57 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

I have not read about the strafing issue and about every turn I replayed in my last PBEM there was a huge difference. There was no strafing involved at all.

This is really BAD and makes playing Allies a LOT less fun.

Thanks for the info, I was about to start 2 PBEMs, but I think I will find some other game to play instead of WITP.


Just make sure your Jap opponent sends HIS combat and operations reports each turn along with the game file. All the info is there. I've got to the point where I rarely watch the replay unless some major battle is close at hand. Then I watch the replay first then check the Jap reports...think of it as fog of war...poor comms etc. More than once I've witnessed my defeat in the replay and to my surprise the actual situation is nowhere near as bad. Sort of interesting.


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Post #: 9
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 8:41:20 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I thought that I'd repost rtrapasso's reply form the other thread. This thread's title would seem to be a better one for a sticky thread...

" ORIGINAL: mantill

My game went out of synch with 1.8. We are about to try Pompacks patented method for resynchronising the turns. Anybody else try this one?




About 6 times now... Works great! For those of you who need the details:

1. Japanese player, receives Allied turn.

2. Japanese player turns off COMBAT REPORTS

3. Japanese player watches combat, enters orders and sends to Allied Player. (Japanese player does without combat reports and SIGINT for one turn; take good notes during combat)

4 . Allied player watches replay with COMBAT REPORTS ON (AFAIK)

5. Allied player enters orders and sends to Japanese Player

6. Japanese Player receives allied turn, turns ON COMBAT REPORTS

7. Japanese player watches combat, enters orders and sends to Allied Player.


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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 10
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 9:23:45 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The random seed has nothing at all to do with the replay. The replay is supposed to be an exact copy of Japanese turn resolution except all allied units should be visable while Japanese hidden units do not appear.

So I would think the source of the problem is somewhere in how the replay is written regarding what the Japanese player sees and what the allied player sees. Since all combats should be exactly the same it is in what is displayed to each player.

The Allied players turn file is always 100 percent correct. What the Japanese player sees when running the turn is always 100 percent correct.

My guess is the problem is not really "out of sync" but rather a bug that is caused by trying to hide Japanese units while displaying Allied units that were hidden while Japanese player was running the turn.

Strafing may be involved because in a normal naval attack the bomber/torpedo plane checks once for a hit while in strafing they score multiple hits and thus extend the amount that is required to be written into the replay. It does not make the text report any longer but it does extend the period the animation has to run to display the attack. I am not familair with how the replay is written but I would examine this when looking for cause of problem.
(Is there a fixed limit to how long a animation replay can write per strike?)

I would think the replay problem might be avoided or repaired simply by Allied player turning off animations. (can't see how Japanese animations effect it either way unless Allied player cannot turn off animations and must use Japanese settings)

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Post #: 11
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 9:45:37 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		That doesn't explain why the problem affects single player games.  As for the guess about random numbers, that is based on a developer's comment some time back about a problem with saving and using the seed being the problem.

Whatever the source of the problem, it is the kind of problem that never should have reached the public sale release.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 12
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 9:46:06 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The random seed has nothing at all to do with the replay. The replay is supposed to be an exact copy of Japanese turn resolution except all allied units should be visable while Japanese hidden units do not appear.

So I would think the source of the problem is somewhere in how the replay is written regarding what the Japanese player sees and what the allied player sees. Since all combats should be exactly the same it is in what is displayed to each player.

The Allied players turn file is always 100 percent correct. What the Japanese player sees when running the turn is always 100 percent correct.

My guess is the problem is not really "out of sync" but rather a bug that is caused by trying to hide Japanese units while displaying Allied units that were hidden while Japanese player was running the turn.

Strafing may be involved because in a normal naval attack the bomber/torpedo plane checks once for a hit while in strafing they score multiple hits and thus extend the amount that is required to be written into the replay. It does not make the text report any longer but it does extend the period the animation has to run to display the attack. I am not familair with how the replay is written but I would examine this when looking for cause of problem.
(Is there a fixed limit to how long a animation replay can write per strike?)

I would think the replay problem might be avoided or repaired simply by Allied player turning off animations. (can't see how Japanese animations effect it either way unless Allied player cannot turn off animations and must use Japanese settings)


quote:

I would think the replay problem might be avoided or repaired simply by Allied player turning off animations. (can't see how Japanese animations effect it either way unless Allied player cannot turn off animations and must use Japanese settings)


Have you clarified this Mog? Not sure if this is a great remedy though as the animations are what some folks regard as vital to their enjoyment of combat, rare as a naval battle is. Anyhow, I'm going to try this the next time I experience a sync issue.


< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/4/2006 9:47:47 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 9:48:28 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		*waits for Ron to say something*

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 14
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 10:11:04 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		I have not played much turns as Allied in WITP PBEM (only in an aborted team game) but more than 1000 as Japanese and my opponent haven't complained much about it.

What I am usually doing is restart my PC between two PBEM turns. The animations are then faster and on the whole the turn will be done faster, and the sync problems will be reduced.

My own impressions is that strafing at 100' greatly increases the chances of sync problem, maybe because of the great number of rolls done (it seems to me that while only one roll will be done for bombing, many more will be done for strafing).

Back to UV games (where I played Allied half the time, so had more chance to see the problem), my opponents and I discovered that having the AI settings not set the same between two players increased the probability of sync problems. Once all players had the same setting (not a problem if you play only PBEM), sync problem were reduced to 1-2% of turns.

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Post #: 15
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 10:12:22 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

That doesn't explain why the problem affects single player games.  As for the guess about random numbers, that is based on a developer's comment some time back about a problem with saving and using the seed being the problem.

Whatever the source of the problem, it is the kind of problem that never should have reached the public sale release.


Hi, There is no replay in solo games. That is the real turn you run. when I run turns from other persons games they repeat exactly 100 percent 100 percent of time.

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Post #: 16
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/4/2006 10:34:00 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		Turning off the animations makes replaying the turn pointless...

I do not think it is the number generator. The generator is likely just a few dozen lines of code.

FOW could play a role in this. Maybe the issue could be fixed by showing only units that both sides could see during the turn.


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RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/5/2006 12:04:55 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

That doesn't explain why the problem affects single player games.  As for the guess about random numbers, that is based on a developer's comment some time back about a problem with saving and using the seed being the problem.

Whatever the source of the problem, it is the kind of problem that never should have reached the public sale release.


Hi, There is no replay in solo games. That is the real turn you run. when I run turns from other persons games they repeat exactly 100 percent 100 percent of time.


So why not just send a carbon copy of the replay file instead of relying on the replay regenerator?


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Post #: 18
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/5/2006 5:11:07 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
when I run turns from other persons games they repeat exactly 100 percent 100 percent of time.


Then you are the only person working for Matrix or 2by3 for whom this is true. Because a number of the save games that I have sent in over the last two years do not repeat exactly when run by others. (Possibly all of them, but I don't have enough information to know that for certain.)

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 19
RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/5/2006 6:30:22 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

I have not read about the strafing issue and about every turn I replayed in my last PBEM there was a huge difference. There was no strafing involved at all.

This is really BAD and makes playing Allies a LOT less fun.

Thanks for the info, I was about to start 2 PBEMs, but I think I will find some other game to play instead of WITP.


Wait for the next patch...or in the meantime, avoid straffing warships/PT's/barges as this is one action that will cause an out of sync. Hitting the esc key alot to accelerate the combat replay is also connected to sync'ing issues.

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RE: How to avoid sync problems? - 9/5/2006 6:59:10 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

I have not read about the strafing issue and about every turn I replayed in my last PBEM there was a huge difference. There was no strafing involved at all.

This is really BAD and makes playing Allies a LOT less fun.

Thanks for the info, I was about to start 2 PBEMs, but I think I will find some other game to play instead of WITP.


Wait for the next patch...or in the meantime, avoid straffing warships/PT's/barges as this is one action that will cause an out of sync. Hitting the esc key alot to accelerate the combat replay is also connected to sync'ing issues.


Man, it would be really sweet if this issue is put to rest with the upcoming patch, Steve. I remember hearing how hard Frag and Keith Brors worked to no avail on this a few years ago.


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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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