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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06

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Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/29/2006 5:02:35 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Well, seeing as have only one PBEM going again due to Nomad dropping out of one for what he described as devastating personal reasons (hope Ken is OK as I've heard nothing since) and my dropping out of another over house rule issues, and also seeing as Bill W wanted another chance at me since he is now experienced as Japan, we decided on a rematch. The older game continues however as we have both never been this far along in a PBEM and wish it to continue.

This CHS is a non-repsawn version with a few extra experimental tweaks for good measure. These tweaks include...

Drastic reduction in experience levels of pilots, 50% cut in fact.
Starting pilot pools were also cut by 50%.
All air to air weapons accuracy reduced by 50%.
All Japanese fighters have had maneuverability boosted by 2.
All air to surface ordinance (torps and bombs) accuracy reduced by 50%.
All obsolete Allied planes not in production in Dec 41 have replacement rate zeroed.
All merchant ships have maneuverability reduced by 80%.
Allied starting political points were zeroed and PP rate for both sides is 15/day.
Hellcat and Kittyhawk III production advanced to historical start dates.
Universall reduction of resource production at major on map centres and minimal added to previously non producing centres. Oil production increased to compensate for this reduction at major centres. (Done to force both Allies and Japan to utilize merchant shipping for logistical reasons rather than having all the supply produced at forward bases, freeing up shipping for endless amphibious ops).

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/21/2006 5:23:44 PM >

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/29/2006 10:52:56 AM

veji1

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this will be very interesting, is it a joint AAR? Because it will be interesting to hear from the japanese player as well on how this influences his operations..

Do this changes mean that lots more supply convoys to Australia will be needed ?

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Post #: 2

RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/29/2006 11:38:45 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

this will be very interesting, is it a joint AAR? Because it will be interesting to hear from the japanese player as well on how this influences his operations..

Do this changes mean that lots more supply convoys to Australia will be needed ?

I'm sure Bill will post his observations as he did with our first game. As for supply convoys, yes it does. Because of the supply model's limitations (eg. no civilian economy) I generally view perhaps 90% of the supply in the game as military and 10% as foodstuffs and water. By making basically every base a resource centre (minimum 5) that takes care of the supplies needed to sustain the units but not operations. With major resource centres drastically reduced (to eliminate the crazy levels of free supply that goes with it), supplemented by oil or enhamced resource/supply at manufacturing centres and off map/on map entry bases like Aden I hope to see a more conventional logistical cycle develop. Hopefully this will make Japan itself more dependent on outside sources of oil and resources, perhaps even having to ship supply back to Japan to maintain its economy. Presently one really does not need the majority of the merchant marine in the game, freeing it up for all sorts of fantasy operations.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/29/2006 5:20:02 PM

spence

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Should be interesting. My experience is that a 50ish pilot almost never scores a kill. Combining that with reduced accuracy of weapons could mean nobody ever loses a plane in A2A.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/29/2006 5:37:27 PM

veji1

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For the reduced experience to work one would need to severely forbid any form of training except the actual training mission. If that can be managed, it might a very good change..

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/29/2006 6:59:41 PM

Ron Saueracker

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I ran this version for a few months vs the AI and the ops losses skyrocketed. Squadrons always had pilots in the low twenties filling out the ranks of 50+ exp pilots. This kept squadrons from becoming too elite and always allowed for air to air kills...just not as many from what I've seen so far. Hard to say just what the reduction in weapon accuracy will do though as I believe pilot exp has a huge impact on the resolution.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/30/2006 5:29:22 AM

bradfordkay

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Ron, I'm looking forward to watching the results of this game here. I've long wondered if experience levels among pilots weren't much too high.

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fair winds,
Brad

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 8/31/2006 3:41:07 AM

ADM Halsey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Should be interesting.��My experience is that a 50ish pilot almost never scores a kill.� Combining that with reduced accuracy of weapons could mean nobody ever loses a plane in A2A.

We shall see about A2A loses soon.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/1/2006 5:02:53 AM

jwxspoon

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I'll be watching this one as well, seeing as I'm playing 2 pbems against Bill. Perhaps I can get some intel! :)

jw

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Post #: 9

RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/2/2006 2:27:22 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwxspoon

I'll be watching this one as well, seeing as I'm playing 2 pbems against Bill.� Perhaps I can get some intel!� :)

jw

Bill must have at least 5 PBEMs going then.

He has informed me this is his TENTH ongoing PBEM!!!

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/6/2006 3:17:35 AM >

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/2/2006 2:36:27 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Well, seeing as have only one PBEM going again due to Nomad dropping out of one for what he described as devastating personal reasons (hope Ken is OK as I've heard nothing since) and my dropping out of another over house rule issues, and also seeing as Bill W wanted another chance at me since he is now experienced as Japan, we decided on a rematch. The older game continues however as we have both never been this far along in a PBEM and wish it to continue.

This CHS is a non-repsawn version with a few extra experimental tweaks for good measure. These tweaks include...

Drastic reduction in experience levels of pilots, 50% cut in fact.
Starting pilot pools were also cut by 50%.
All air to air weapons accuracy reduced by 50%.
All Japanese fighters have had maneuverability boosted by 2.
All air to surface ordinance (torps and bombs) accuracy reduced by 50%.
All obsolete Allied planes not in production in Dec 41 have replacement rate zeroed.
All merchant ships have maneuverability reduced by 80%.
Allied starting political points were zeroed.
Hellcat and Kittyhawk III production advanced to historical start dates.
Universall reduction of resource production at major on map centres and minimal added to previously non producing centres. Oil production increased to compensate for this reduction at major centres. (Done to force both Allies and Japan to utilize merchant shipping for logistical reasons rather than having all the supply produced at forward bases, freeing up shipping for endless amphibious ops).

Sounds interesting Ron.
The two items I bolded above will definately have an impact.

Pilots do best at the 50-60 experience range as far as my testing has gone.

It's a damn shame there is no "ACE" rule wich prohibits pilots advancing beyond 60 or so exp without 5 kills - it would help a lot!

Maybe someday.

I find it interesting that modders' are now all looking at these types of reductions - there is hope.

B

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Post #: 11

RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/2/2006 3:03:19 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Well, seeing as have only one PBEM going again due to Nomad dropping out of one for what he described as devastating personal reasons (hope Ken is OK as I've heard nothing since) and my dropping out of another over house rule issues, and also seeing as Bill W wanted another chance at me since he is now experienced as Japan, we decided on a rematch. The older game continues however as we have both never been this far along in a PBEM and wish it to continue.

This CHS is a non-repsawn version with a few extra experimental tweaks for good measure. These tweaks include...

Drastic reduction in experience levels of pilots, 50% cut in fact.
Starting pilot pools were also cut by 50%.
All air to air weapons accuracy reduced by 50%.
All Japanese fighters have had maneuverability boosted by 2.
All air to surface ordinance (torps and bombs) accuracy reduced by 50%.
All obsolete Allied planes not in production in Dec 41 have replacement rate zeroed.
All merchant ships have maneuverability reduced by 80%.
Allied starting political points were zeroed.
Hellcat and Kittyhawk III production advanced to historical start dates.
Universall reduction of resource production at major on map centres and minimal added to previously non producing centres. Oil production increased to compensate for this reduction at major centres. (Done to force both Allies and Japan to utilize merchant shipping for logistical reasons rather than having all the supply produced at forward bases, freeing up shipping for endless amphibious ops).

Sounds interesting Ron.
The two items I bolded above will definately have an impact.

Pilots do best at the 50-60 experience range as far as my testing has gone.

It's a damn shame there is no "ACE" rule wich prohibits pilots advancing beyond 60 or so exp without 5 kills - it would help a lot!

Maybe someday.

I find it interesting that modders' are now all looking at these types of reductions - there is hope.

B

Tried to get massive reductions during testing to establish any real impact but no go. I am interested in your wing loading approach.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/3/2006 10:44:22 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Dec 7th, 1941

Pretty basic first turn as we went with the "historical first turn."

CENTPAC:
-Pearl Harbor was again poor (no sinkings) for Bill as the AI denies the Kates torpedoes on the first day of strikes.
-Wake Island succumbs to initial landing.

SWPAC:
-Clark, as always gets pounded.
-Batan Is, Aparri, Vigan, Legaspi and Naga all are assaulted with Batan Is falling.
-Numerous air attacks vs shipping in the PI result in no damage.
-AP President Harrison damaged (later sunk), AK Lahaina sunk by air attack.

SEAC:
-Singapore hit by a massive airstrike.
-Hong Kong is bombed.
-PG Wake sunk, AK Kiangsu damaged (later sunk) by air attack.

SOPAC:
-AK Vincent sunk by IJN Armed Merchant Cruisers west of Tahiti.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/3/2006 10:47:55 PM >

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/4/2006 11:50:42 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Trying to streamline the reports and the workload...

A:

Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 114,72

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
D3A2 Val x 76
B5N2 Kate x 96

Allied aircraft
F4F-3/3A Wildcat x 2
P-26A "Peashooter" x 5
P-36A Mohawk x 4
P-40B/C Tomahawk x 9
P-40E/F Warhawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A2 Val: 5 destroyed, 37 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 13 destroyed, 30 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3/3A Wildcat: 2 destroyed
P-26A "Peashooter": 4 destroyed
P-36A Mohawk: 3 destroyed
P-40B/C Tomahawk: 7 destroyed
P-40E/F Warhawk: 1 destroyed
PBY Catalina: 2 destroyed
B-18A Bolo: 4 destroyed
SOC-3 Seagull: 3 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed
C-47 Dakota/R4D: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 2
BB California, Bomb hits 2
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 3, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
DD Chew, Bomb hits 1
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 2, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Allied ground losses:
49 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 82
Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/4/2006 11:56:31 PM >

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/5/2006 5:41:16 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Turn 3.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/6/2006 2:54:18 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Bill and I are picking up the pace a bit.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/6/2006 3:11:06 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Can you tell I'm waiting for Bill to finish stuffing his face or attending to family business?

This AAR is about a week behind so I don't give the treacherous Japanese any useful info.

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< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/6/2006 3:32:16 AM >

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/6/2006 11:40:12 AM

VSWG

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Very nice format, easy to read!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Can you tell I'm waiting for Bill to finish stuffing his face or attending to family business? This AAR is about a week behind so I don't give the treacherous Japanese any useful info.

Have you thought about making it an Allied thread?

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/6/2006 5:28:56 PM

ADM Halsey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Very nice format, easy to read!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Can you tell I'm waiting for Bill to finish stuffing his face or attending to family business? This AAR is about a week behind so I don't give the treacherous Japanese any useful info.

Have you thought about making it an Allied thread?

He has nothing to fear about the Japanese code breakers. He already knows our code.

I really do not get much of a chance to post due to game commitments. Lets see I have 7 PBEM as Japan and 2 PBEM as Allies.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/6/2006 5:43:19 PM

ADM Halsey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwxspoon

I'll be watching this one as well, seeing as I'm playing 2 pbems against Bill.� Perhaps I can get some intel!� :)

jw

The Force can not help you now!

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Post #: 20

Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 1:04:35 AM

Ron Saueracker

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I've always thought it both silly and harmful to the design that pilot experience is so high, with pilots having high 80-90 experience levels before seeing any combat. What was the point in having a range from 1-99 when the majority are near 99 anyway???

Although there is nothing we can do about on map pilot training (pilots can attain retarded experience levels for bombing a dot!!

) there is something we can do about experience levels. Having advocated it for years I thought it time I added a huge drop in experience since nobody else was about to. (CHS dropped it a little but I don't think it was dropped enough to make an impact)

Check these out...

I suspect the A2A model is going to become much less bloody (especially once the prewar pilots are thinned out due to losses) and ops losses to become much more common.

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 1:12:27 AM

Ron Saueracker

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VF 3 aboard Saratoga was not fully operational at the start of the war and is not here either. One can see that the prewar pilots and the new arrivals are vastly different in experience. I suspect that Bill and I will spend much more time working up our rebuilt squadrons before sending them into combat...should slow the pace of the game down immensely.

I was also disappointed that if they were going to model individual pilots and leaders, why did they not make a provision for promotion? It existed in old games like BoB and BTR. Here the prewar pilots include Ensigns and the newbies are Lt jgs.

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< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/7/2006 1:21:20 AM >

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 1:16:26 AM

Ron Saueracker

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I'd love to see a pic of one of Bills Zero datais that made the mistake of strafing Pearl Harbor. Lots of great pilots lost to flak.

They will need some serious training if they are to be effective.

Anyway, by May/June 42 we might actually see a decent CV battle as I suspect many of the Japanese prewar pilots will have been lost by then. Be great if the buzzsaw uber CAP was alleviated bsomewhat by this.

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 1:23:19 AM

VSWG

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Poor 1LT Ching B.! He will probably slip while climbing into his cockpit, and break his neck.

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 1:52:28 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Poor 1LT Ching B.! He will probably slip while climbing into his cockpit, and break his neck.�

That's the point exactly! The Chinese AF was really not much of a factor during the war, and early lendlease aircraft were used mainly to train pilots. The low experience levels should go along way in ensuring the CAF is a non factor. In the CHS 1.06 game I also have with Bill, it is April 1943 and the CAF is not only potent but is in many respects superior to what the Japanese have in China, with the P-43 Lancer and P-66 Vanguard controlling the skies. You know something is terribly wrong when this is the case and the number of CAF pilots with 5 or more kills is in the double digits!

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 2:23:03 AM

LittleJoe

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Keep tabs on Ching, maybe he can survive this crazy war...

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 4:36:26 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Bill, where is my turn? I'm stuck doing AARs.

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RE: Bill vs Ron: Modified CHS 2.06 - 9/7/2006 8:47:24 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Very nice format, easy to read!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Can you tell I'm waiting for Bill to finish stuffing his face or attending to family business? This AAR is about a week behind so I don't give the treacherous Japanese any useful info.

Have you thought about making it an Allied thread?

Nah, this is more about seeing how the experience levels and other changes impact the game. If you want to suggest strategy though, feel free.

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 5:31:06 PM

ADM Halsey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'd love to see a pic of one of Bills Zero datais that made the mistake of strafing Pearl Harbor. Lots of great pilots lost to flak. They will need some serious training if they are to be effective.

Anyway, by May/June 42 we might actually see a decent CV battle as I suspect many of the Japanese prewar pilots will have been lost by then. Be great if the buzzsaw uber CAP was alleviated bsomewhat by this.

You will be surprised Ron. I will post them tonight when I get home from work.

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RE: Gutted pilot exp levels - 9/7/2006 5:45:03 PM

ADM Halsey

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FYI, Pedro lost another base in Aussie Land to the IJA. The base just northwest of Alice Springs.

The turn should be in your in box Ron. I did it this morning bright and early. So far the games is progressing better than our first encounter. I will have a few surprises for you in this game I think. There really has not been much A2A except in China with the AVG leading a hand to the Chinese.

I noticed the base supply change you made is working. One base had 0 supplies last turn and I noticed this turn it had 5 on hand.

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