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RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 6:53:45 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		I've always considered the King Tiger as more of a Panther II than a Tiger II.
Tiger I didn't even have sloping armour and belonged to the 'box' shaped tanks.


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(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 3211
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 6:58:41 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Much more modern looking tank, not to mention more effective...

Then with the Jagdtiger and Sturmtiger, they went back to the box-on-treads approach.

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Post #: 3212
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 7:07:33 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		The Panther II would have been the logical successor to both the King Tiger and Panther:

1943 - German Panther II PzKw 5 Ausf F
Armament; 1 - 7.5cm (3") KwK 42 L/70 gun
1 - 7.92mm MG 34
Engine: Maybach, HL 234, V-12, gas, 800 hp
Speed: 29 mph
Range: 110 miles
Crew: 5
Weight: 57 tons

When production of the Panther began in 1943, plans were made for a Panther II with heavier frontal and side armor but capable of the same performance as the Panther I. This was an attempt to create a hybrid vehicle which combined components from early Panther tanks with those of the yet to be built Tiger II. Two prototypes were ordered, and one with a normal Panther I turret was delivered. The Panther II was to be equipped with an improved Schmalturm. Only one specimen remains which was recovered from an artillery range in Lackhill England. See photo by Andrew Longstaff. This compact turret with a built in rangefinder was designed by Daimler Benz for the Panther Ausf F. It was to mount a modified version of the 75mm gun known as the KwK 44/1. This Panther II at Ft. Knox, Kentucky, is the sole survivor. Weight increased to 57 tons and the prototype used the running gear of the King Tiger. Only 7 wheels per side were used and were staggered to enable the use of a single torsion bar. Hydraulic steering with a reinforced gear box was used. The project was abandoned and many of the advanced features such as all steel road wheels and deeply sloped armor were incorporated into the Model G Panther I in late production models.




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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3213
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 7:19:52 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Much more modern looking tank, not to mention more effective...



against which tank are you referring/comparing?

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Post #: 3214
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 7:59:02 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		The Tiger II was one of the best heavy tanks of the war together with:
KV-85
JSIII
Centurion
Pershing

These are all 'medium' tanks compared to the 70 ton Tiger II, but they were all heavy tanks when
you compare them to other Allied tanks of the time.

It arrived quite early though and was best suited in a defensive role. The Panther was much
more suited for offensive operations and the Panther II would have been a match for any Allied tank
in 1945. Love playing 1945 battles in Steel Panthers World at War were these tanks clash


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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 3215
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:02:32 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Much more modern looking tank, not to mention more effective...



against which tank are you referring/comparing?


The Tiger I.

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Post #: 3216
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:05:58 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Yes, but if Termy was comparing the Tiger I to II, i'd probably disagree a bit on the "more effective part" While an awesome and beatiful tank, armed with the best anti-tank gun of the war, I often considered it just way to big and complicated to be considered "more effective". The Tiger 1 may have been boxy, but it made up for it in part with the thickness and quality of the armor and the tank driver could at least present on oblique target to whatever threat was being faced increasing the armor value even more. The 88 was less powerful than the 71cal but at the time was deadly enough to take out hundreds of enemy tanks over the course of it's career.

The King Tiger has even more impressive armor on the front and sloped (if quality is a bit less) but this is negated in part by the huge side profle which is no better protected than the Tiger I's.

Because of this i'll usually pick the JS-III as the best heavy tank. The Soviets well understood the value of low profile and cost effectiveness. The Germans though can be given kudos for producing the best positioned heavy tank in terms of time period in the Tiger I. Beats out all the other heavy tanks because the Germans seem to be the only ones who realized at the time that you need a gun powerful enough to enhance your armor protection by allowing you to stand off from the enemy. That was the KV-1's biggest failing as well as the Churchill's.....no better armed than a medium forcing them to fight at closer range.

LoL...this seems to get borne out in every SP game i play. Whenever i have a KT group, i always lose them to either air or side shot attacks. I have better luck with Tiger I's

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Post #: 3217
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:09:53 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Interesting how this WitP AAR has turned into a discussion of German tanks, just because somebody's pilot pool overflowed.

If you give me a choice between Tiger I and Tiger II, I'll still take the Tiger II. Bigger gun, properly sloped armour (which can be the difference between life and death)... The only problem was that it was too big, as Nik pointed out...



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Post #: 3218
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:35:27 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		The Panther II with the 88 would be the perfect combo of Panther and Tiger 
After years of UV and WitP I do miss Eastern Front....and I wish Matrix could get some more resources for it
Playing around with Stuarts and even more obscure Jap tanks just doesn't do the trick <G>




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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Post #: 3219
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:36:18 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The Type 92 Tankette not good enough for you?

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Post #: 3220
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:40:18 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		After riding the gun barel of this?




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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Post #: 3221
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:42:20 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
What are you riding in the lower left corner there? Is that a Grant?

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Post #: 3222
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:42:31 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		You don't have Steel Panthers??

Eastern front games are fun but at the operational level, the differences in tanks tends to get blurred to the point where you don't really notice their individual impact. (least i never really noticed one in Second Front/War in Russia)



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Post #: 3223
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:43:33 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Type 92 Tankette not good enough for you?


If i'm in Malaya and have to travel down a small muddy trail, yeah, i'll take the Type 92's.....the KT's will all be stuck in the mud and out of the battle.


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Post #: 3224
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 8:57:03 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		So would you, being as heavy as a Tiger II...

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Post #: 3225
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 9:01:31 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Which still weighs less than you, on par with a Jagd-Tiger

Your probably familiar with the BEEP BEEP BEEP sound the big rigs make whenever you have to back up.



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Post #: 3226
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 9:10:26 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Pffft... You're fat enough that the astro-nerds were considering declaring you a planet recently...

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Post #: 3227
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 9:39:13 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		If possible I would have started a research program for airborne King Tigers!
Even if you miss the enemy, it should be possible to plant a new 'Gustav Line' anywere within 48 hours.

Yep, that's a Grant in the background...strangely enough I was more interested in the Panther, Jagdpanter, Tiger, King Tigerm, Jagdtiger and Stugs. Evil Empires always make a lot of kewl stuff

Here's a rare sight: a KV




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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3228
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 9:54:59 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Didn't think there were any of those around anymore...

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Post #: 3229
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 10:11:35 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Beautiful.




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Post #: 3230
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 10:20:27 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Nerd.

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Post #: 3231
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 10:21:43 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Wow......as many years as I've been playing SL, ASL, SPWAW........I don't think I've ever noticed that the KV-1 didn't have a T-34 style suspension.

Looks like it was in winter camo. Is this one the Finns captured?


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 3232
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 10:58:22 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		The KV is a mid 42 model, from the Bovington exhibition! Highly recommended.
It's painted in Leningrad paint scheme, but I don't think it was captured by the Finns.
Can't remember its history.


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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 3233
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:11:50 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Well the best heavy soviet Tank of the early stage of the war Was KV-2 with 152 mm Howitzer this monster was invunrable to any kind of AT fire and a hit from its main gun riped German Armor apart

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Post #: 3234
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:24:01 PM   
Honda


Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline 		If KVII was the best the Soviets had then KT is the most maneuverable AFV around...

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Post #: 3235
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:25:11 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		When it could hit one......and if the tank was lucky to be on an even slope. (any kind of hill and the massive turret could only be turned with extreme difficulty)

I'd rather have a conventional KV-1 than a 2.



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Post #: 3236
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:30:01 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		I read that a single KV-2 Cut supply Lines for an Entire German Regiment and it took over 24 houers to Disable it ( crew ditched the Tank after it runned out of Ammo )

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Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 3237
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:30:07 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The KV-2 was a piece of crap. It was unreliable, slow, too-high profile, too heavy... It was basically not a tank, but a mobile artillery piece. The KV-1 was far more useful...

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Post #: 3238
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:31:16 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		That was a KV-1

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Post #: 3239
RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug - 9/14/2006 11:31:44 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Eh?

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Post #: 3240
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