RE: Best way to play each power

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RE: Best way to play each power - 8/10/2006 11:22:04 PM

Roads

Posts: 180
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: massachusetts
Status: offline

Dang you're talking about an aggresive Britain.

I don't doubt that Britain can pull of your approach, but Russia needs to have a tougher stomach than that. As noted before, Russia NEEDS Sweden, more than anyone other than France needs any minor.

A Britain/Russia fight over Sweden hurts both of them dramatically, and so is in neither's interest. But it hurts Britain rather more than Russia.

What else did Russia have to do in the first 6 months of 1805 anyway? Maybe she has some interest in helping out the Germans, but unless they are making very good offers in Jan '05, it's usually better to wait and see those offers get better. Besides which you can still provide a fair amount of help to the Germans and fight Britain over Sweden at the same time. You need to keep Turkey quiet, but with no British power in the Med at all Turkey will have plenty to do.

But Britain has lots to do in early '05, and not much to do it with. She can fight and beat the Russian fleet in the Baltic, but that will stretch the 1805 Royal Navy to the limit (unless of course Britain has thrashed the French fleet before the dispute in the Baltic). A simple hiccup from Spain and a French corps or two will be loose in England. And Britain cannot fight in Portugal and Sweden at the same time, to fight in Sweden she will have to concede Portugal to Spain (and vice versa).

Spain is the key for Russia here. Unless Spain acquieses Britain cannot do anything stop Russia from taking Sweden. And Russia in Sweden is very much in Spain's interest - even if she wants to ally with GB a Russian Sweden makes her that much more important to GB. I'd talk the Spaniards head off about how much 3 Russian fleets and the Swedish fleet can do to help Spain down the road.

And I'd turn Britain's approach to the Germans on it's head. Britain is already getting Denmark, I say, why does she need Sweden too? Which is more helpful to A/P, a British corps in Normany, or 5 Russian corps in Poland? If the British weren't so damned obstiante about Sweden I could be much more helpful in Central Europe. Russian players need to understand that while Russia does need to contain France, Austria, Prussia, and Britain all need to contain her much more than Russia does. It's in Russsia's interest to help them, but not for free. And the opening bid for Russian help in 1805 should certainly be Sweden.

And Russia is much more able to ignore a passive aggresive GB than most other players. The loss of trade and/or subsidies probably means fewer artillery and guards, which is a shame, but Russian trade really isn't that big, and she's usually last in line for British subsidies anyway. Turkey is a real concern, but to Russia Turkey exists as a source of PPs and an aggressive Turkey is usually not a bad thing. Especially if Spain is friendly.

Bottom line is Russia should want a basically friendly Britain. But she should want Sweden more. A showdown in 1805 hurts Britain far more than it hurts Russia. And if Britain gets Sweden it'll be much harder for Russia to get her out later on than she will be in 1805.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 121

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/11/2006 1:15:52 AM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

If I were Russia:

I would tell England that he can accept Russia getting Sweden, OR he can accept having Russia as an enemy
for the next 120 turns.

No negotiation, and no turning back.

France will be glad to ally with Russia if need be.

That will be Englands choice.

Sweden isnt a negotiable point. England preventing Russia getting Sweden is a unfreindly act.
It is obvious.

(in reply to Roads)

Post #: 122

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/11/2006 3:39:31 AM

Barbu

Posts: 46
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

A lot of the recent answers seem to have in mind a smart british players facing spanish and russian players with barely enough brain cells to keep breathing.

Roads is right on. Spain and Russia share pretty much the same interest - which is having the minor fleets in their hands, but not to have to actually fight the brits preferrably. And they have the combined military might to achieve that, and the initial political situation (france) greatly favors them.

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 123

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/11/2006 4:34:20 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

I have to admit that in all my games but one, Spain was played by a milqtoast player who was immediately in GB's pocket. For some reason, Spain is a very attractive country to play for timid players. Maybe its because they are not obviously on the French or the Coalitions list to confront at the outset of the game, and the Turks look easy to beat.

Without Spain as an ally, Russia has a hard time fighting GB for Sweden. Further, I've seen GB use its economic clout and naval superiority to pretty much dictate how the med and coastal minors would be divvied up by the coalition players before the game even started. I've actually seen the Spanish player repeatedly agree to not touch Portugal, leaving it for GB at its leisure, in return for a brokered deal whereby it gets southern Italy. As I said, timid Spanish players!

On the other hand, I've also rarely seen the A/P player give Russia much of a problem about seizing the neutral Polish provinces.

(in reply to Barbu)

Post #: 124

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/11/2006 8:56:13 PM

Roads

Posts: 180
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: massachusetts
Status: offline

What neutral Polish provinces? Those provinces belong to Prussia (mostly) and Austria in 1805. While it can make sense for A/P to give them to Russia, they'd better make sure they get a good deal.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 125

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/11/2006 10:17:05 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

Oh, I must be thinking of the 1792 scenario. Never mind.

(in reply to Roads)

Post #: 126

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/12/2006 10:00:25 PM

Murat

Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline

Usually if we get a weak player they end up in Turkey. Maybe they feel more comfortable killing off feudal corps. We usually start our new players in Prussia if we can so they are less likely to get overwhelmed by the machiavellian diplomacy. "You are Prussia, you will learn every aspect of this game. Britain will show you how he is doing his naval battles. You only have to remember one thing - Austria is your best buddy, no matter what." I mean Austria and Prussia spend most of the game coordinating anyway and we always had strong Austrian players, so why not have them train the newbie?

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 127

RE: Best way to play each power - 8/13/2006 6:43:17 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

I've never played EiA with a seventh player. I've always seen Prussia run by GB.

Tips For Turkey: How many of you have seen this one? Turkey charges a $1 access tax for allowing British trade with Russian Black Sea ports (paid by Russia). In the same vein, Turkey will charge a negotatied fee for sheltering any fleet in the Black Sea that wants to hide from the British Navy (ussually France or Spain).

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 128

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/2/2006 9:29:19 PM

montesaurus

Posts: 489
Joined: 7/27/2003
Status: offline

In regards to an opening Turkish strategy, I once saw Turkey trying to form an alliance with Russia. In that way TU could help discourage a back stab due to the big loss of political points. Initially the Russian player refused because I think he wanted to keep TU as a possible expansion area after France was contained. So, during the initial set up, since TU sets up after RU, the Turkish player set up most of his army on the Russian border, while the Russian was dispersed, and poised to take on SW or to send troops to assist the AU/PR coalition. During the first diplomacy phase the Turkish player advised the Russian either he forms an alliance or he would declare war on Russia and attack him. The Russian seeing the error of his ways, and not wanting his rich southern provinces overrun before the first economic period acquiesced and formed the alliance! Plus, this is one of the few times in the game the Turkish player will have a large numerical advantage over the Russian player.
Another opening Turkish ploy was to form an alliance with Prussia. Players might think why would any self respecting Prussian want an alliance with Turkey? It is mutually beneficial! Pr has an ally to help him with a back stabbing Russian or Austrian, which could occur if France is contained. Both AU and RU would hesitate on declaring war on PR if their rear areas are not secured! Or, if Prussia/TU are ambitious and doing well they could coordinate to attack either RU or AU.
Viva La Bataille!

_____________________________

montesaurus
French Player in Going Again II 1792

(in reply to fjbn)

Post #: 129

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/4/2006 10:19:32 AM

Norden_slith

Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

If I were Russia:

I would tell England that he can accept Russia getting Sweden, OR he can accept having Russia as an enemy
for the next 120 turns.

No negotiation, and no turning back.

France will be glad to ally with Russia if need be.

That will be Englands choice.

Sweden isnt a negotiable point. England preventing Russia getting Sweden is a unfreindly act.
It is obvious.

Ive read a lot of viable options and this is the beauty of this game, but with this one a heartily disagree.
EiA is so much more than this WW2-like posture (TOTALER KRIEG!). You'd throw all options overboard for the entire game like this. This game is usually won by the shrewdest diplomat, and this isnt shrewd diplomacy.

_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 130

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/4/2006 5:56:08 PM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

If I were Russia:

I would tell England that he can accept Russia getting Sweden, OR he can accept having Russia as an enemy
for the next 120 turns.

No negotiation, and no turning back.

France will be glad to ally with Russia if need be.

That will be Englands choice.

Sweden isnt a negotiable point. England preventing Russia getting Sweden is a unfreindly act.
It is obvious.

Ive read a lot of viable options and this is the beauty of this game, but with this one a heartily disagree.
EiA is so much more than this WW2-like posture (TOTALER KRIEG!). You'd throw all options overboard for the entire game like this. This game is usually won by the shrewdest diplomat, and this isnt shrewd diplomacy.

I dont recall saying it was shrewd. But it is blunt, and will be self-fullfilling. Russia needs Sweden to gain Dominance.
As Russia, I want the English cards on the table at the start. Will he oppose me becoming Dominant or will he not?
I want the answer at the start of the game. Not after 60 turns and assisting England against France.
If England intends to oppose Dominant Russia, that is an unfreindly act. What could possibly be clearer?
And it isnt very sophisticated of England, to throw the two largest land powers in Europe, into a coalition
against England.

Negotiation would imply that England ACCEPT a Russian Sweden. And try to obtain a good position by acquiescing.

But all too often England wants to have it all....I agree there.

(in reply to Norden_slith)

Post #: 131

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/4/2006 6:07:57 PM

yammahoper

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline

If Russia seeks dominance, I think every nation on the board will oppose it. Sounds like a great way for Russia to face a coalition of powers who will divy the prize of a conquered Russia. As GB, I would gladly sponser the war, put off the fight againt France, and grap all the out lieing minors as the others surge into Russia.

lynn

_____________________________

...nothing is more chaotic than a battle won...

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 132

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/4/2006 7:10:04 PM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

If Russia seeks dominance, I think every nation on the board will oppose it.� Sounds like a great way for Russia to face a coalition of powers who will divy the prize of a conquered Russia.� As GB, I would gladly sponser the war, put off the fight againt France, and grap all the out lieing minors as the others surge into Russia.

lynn

Then I guess we would fight. I dont allow other players to tell me what goals to seek.
If you want help against France, the price is dominance. Pure and simple.
Otherwise, your asking for altruism.

And w/o Russia, it will be very difficult to defeat France.
Especially if Russian troops are helping him.

But have it your way.

(in reply to yammahoper)

Post #: 133

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/4/2006 9:24:52 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

If Russia seeks dominance, I think every nation on the board will oppose it.� Sounds like a great way for Russia to face a coalition of powers who will divy the prize of a conquered Russia.� As GB, I would gladly sponser the war, put off the fight againt France, and grap all the out lieing minors as the others surge into Russia.

lynn

Then I guess we would fight. I dont allow other players to tell me what goals to seek.
If you want help against France, the price is dominance. Pure and simple.
Otherwise, your asking for altruism.

And w/o Russia, it will be very difficult to defeat France.
Especially if Russian troops are helping him.

But have it your way.

I think this "demand" that Russia become dominant is a fundamentally undiplomatic course of play. First, its a given that Prussia and Austria are going to be natural allies with England against France. Rather than make obnoxious demands on England regarding Russia's pursuit of dominance, all you need to do is let this coalition work against France for you. Sending a small contingent to help potentially nets you PP to stay on track to win.

Instead, you counsel the Russian to play like a mafiaso running a protection racket. Yeah, Austria and Prussia are going to be screwed as a result of your selfishness. But the big winner will be France. France will take 3 provinces from Prussia and Austria, precluding you from getting the territories you wanted for dominance. And when the Grand Armee enters Russia, you'll be facing the French collossus alone, as your failure to be a team player resulted in Prussia and Austria being laid prostrate, and a pissed off England letting you swing in the wind. Expect Turkey to invade along with France, because you will have obviously alienated anyone from being your ally!

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 134

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/4/2006 9:28:36 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: montesaurus

In regards to an opening Turkish� strategy, I once saw Turkey trying to form an alliance with Russia. In that way TU could help discourage a back stab due to the big loss of political points. Initially the Russian player refused because I think he wanted to keep TU as a possible expansion area after France was contained. So, during the initial set up, since TU sets up after RU, the Turkish player set up most of his army on the Russian border, while the Russian was dispersed, and poised�to take on SW or to send troops to assist the AU/PR coalition. During the first diplomacy phase the Turkish player advised the Russian either he forms an alliance or he would declare war on Russia and attack him. The Russian seeing the error of his ways, and not wanting his rich southern provinces overrun before the first economic period acquiesced and formed the alliance! Plus, this is one of the few times in the game the Turkish player will have a large numerical advantage over the Russian player.
Another opening Turkish ploy was to form an alliance with Prussia. Players might think why would any self respecting Prussian want an alliance with Turkey? It is mutually beneficial! Pr has an ally to help him with a back stabbing Russian or Austrian, which could occur if France is contained. Both AU and RU would hesitate on declaring war on PR if their rear areas are not secured! Or, if Prussia/TU are ambitious and doing well they could coordinate�to attack either RU or AU.
Viva La Bataille!

Turkey has a tough road to hoe. It is naturally an ally of France against Austria, Russia, and Spain. Unfortunately, Turkey's aspirations for the Ottoman Empire are completely at the mercy of the Royal Navy, which is liable to take a dim view of the Turk becoming a French poodle.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to montesaurus)

Post #: 135

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/5/2006 7:00:44 AM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

If Russia seeks dominance, I think every nation on the board will oppose it.� Sounds like a great way for Russia to face a coalition of powers who will divy the prize of a conquered Russia.� As GB, I would gladly sponser the war, put off the fight againt France, and grap all the out lieing minors as the others surge into Russia.

lynn

Then I guess we would fight. I dont allow other players to tell me what goals to seek.
If you want help against France, the price is dominance. Pure and simple.
Otherwise, your asking for altruism.

And w/o Russia, it will be very difficult to defeat France.
Especially if Russian troops are helping him.

But have it your way.

I think this "demand" that Russia become dominant is a fundamentally undiplomatic course of play. First, its a given that Prussia and Austria are going to be natural allies with England against France. Rather than make obnoxious demands on England regarding Russia's pursuit of dominance, all you need to do is let this coalition work against France for you. Sending a small contingent to help potentially nets you PP to stay on track to win.

Instead, you counsel the Russian to play like a mafiaso running a protection racket. Yeah, Austria and Prussia are going to be screwed as a result of your selfishness. But the big winner will be France. France will take 3 provinces from Prussia and Austria, precluding you from getting the territories you wanted for dominance. And when the Grand Armee enters Russia, you'll be facing the French collossus alone, as your failure to be a team player resulted in Prussia and Austria being laid prostrate, and a pissed off England letting you swing in the wind. Expect Turkey to invade along with France, because you will have obviously alienated anyone from being your ally!

Really? It is ok for England and France to be dominant, but NOT Russia.
I suppose you feel the same for the other 4 powers?

And somehow it is ok for ENGLAND to get Sweden, but not Russia? Why is that again?
No, I will fight an England with that attitude, and I can tell you exactly what will happen.

He will quit playing roughly 36 turns into the game when he realizes that he cant stop the French.
Who's fault is that again?

Seems to me that a Dominant Russia makes it much easier to contain France.
Silly me.

BTW I dont fear a solo invasion of Russia by France nor with his sidekick Turkey.
Only ENGLAND has the kind of cash needed to allow Turkey to move his corp around.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 136

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/7/2006 12:20:30 AM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

If Russia seeks dominance, I think every nation on the board will oppose it.� Sounds like a great way for Russia to face a coalition of powers who will divy the prize of a conquered Russia.� As GB, I would gladly sponser the war, put off the fight againt France, and grap all the out lieing minors as the others surge into Russia.

lynn

Then I guess we would fight. I dont allow other players to tell me what goals to seek.
If you want help against France, the price is dominance. Pure and simple.
Otherwise, your asking for altruism.

And w/o Russia, it will be very difficult to defeat France.
Especially if Russian troops are helping him.

But have it your way.

I think this "demand" that Russia become dominant is a fundamentally undiplomatic course of play. First, its a given that Prussia and Austria are going to be natural allies with England against France. Rather than make obnoxious demands on England regarding Russia's pursuit of dominance, all you need to do is let this coalition work against France for you. Sending a small contingent to help potentially nets you PP to stay on track to win.

Instead, you counsel the Russian to play like a mafiaso running a protection racket. Yeah, Austria and Prussia are going to be screwed as a result of your selfishness. But the big winner will be France. France will take 3 provinces from Prussia and Austria, precluding you from getting the territories you wanted for dominance. And when the Grand Armee enters Russia, you'll be facing the French collossus alone, as your failure to be a team player resulted in Prussia and Austria being laid prostrate, and a pissed off England letting you swing in the wind. Expect Turkey to invade along with France, because you will have obviously alienated anyone from being your ally!

Really? It is ok for England and France to be dominant, but NOT Russia.
I suppose you feel the same for the other 4 powers?

And somehow it is ok for ENGLAND to get Sweden, but not Russia? Why is that again?
No, I will fight an England with that attitude, and I can tell you exactly what will happen.

He will quit playing roughly 36 turns into the game when he realizes that he cant stop the French.
Who's fault is that again?

Seems to me that a Dominant Russia makes it much easier to contain France.
Silly me.

BTW I dont fear a solo invasion of Russia by France nor with his sidekick Turkey.
Only ENGLAND has the kind of cash needed to allow Turkey to move his corp around.

Are you serious, or are you just roleplaying the stereotypical paranoid Russian????

Although I've commented on seeing an agressive Britian press it's claim for Sweden, I didn't say that I thought that was how it should be. Really, from the Coalition's point of view, Sweden should go to whatever power can most effectively use it to benefit the coalition. If that means an experienced Brit with the cash to build it quickly, and a good plan to hit France in the rear, so be it. If that means going to an agressive Russian with a hot hand on the chit picks and the dice, then Yip Yip Yahoo for Russia!

BUT, let's go back to your fundamental premise: That you "demand" that Britain sell out its allies, Prussia and Austria, at the outset of the game, in order to serve YOUR selfish desire to be dominant. That they agree to let you declare war on, and take territory, from Britain's two biggest continental allies, not to mention distracting them from taking on France. I think that is mind bogglingly arrogant.

How does taking provinces from Prussian and Austria make you a "team player"? How is that constructive to the task of building an effective coalition against France?

I stand by my original assessment: You want to play that way, fine. But don't expect anyone on the Coalition side to be your buddy for it. All you do is ensure that France is able to defeat Prussia and Austria in detail. From there, France will take all the German and Italian prinicipalities, and then it will come for you.

And with France owning every province from Brittany to Warsaw to Naples, why you think France wouldn't have enough of a slush fund to pay for Turkish supply is beyond me. Having effectively sabotaged the Coalition against France, why should you be surprised if Britain herself funds Turkey against you. It's not like you could do anything about it anyway.

In summary: If it got you to play nice with your neighbors, I'd let you have Sweden as the British player. But no way am I, as Britian, going to stand by and let you carve up Prussia and Austria for your own self aggrandisement---Russian dominance isn't required to defeat France, only that you be willing to send Kutusov and a stack of corps to fight France. Such a course of action by Russia is self-defeating: France will get the provinces you covet in Austria and Prussia long before you do and with no help from other allies, the Russian WILL lose to a co-ordinated invasion by France and Turkey.

Your course of action only leads the Russian to playing the spoiler to the benefit of the French player.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 137

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/7/2006 1:26:05 AM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

If Russia seeks dominance, I think every nation on the board will oppose it.� Sounds like a great way for Russia to face a coalition of powers who will divy the prize of a conquered Russia.� As GB, I would gladly sponser the war, put off the fight againt France, and grap all the out lieing minors as the others surge into Russia.

lynn

Then I guess we would fight. I dont allow other players to tell me what goals to seek.
If you want help against France, the price is dominance. Pure and simple.
Otherwise, your asking for altruism.

And w/o Russia, it will be very difficult to defeat France.
Especially if Russian troops are helping him.

But have it your way.

I think this "demand" that Russia become dominant is a fundamentally undiplomatic course of play. First, its a given that Prussia and Austria are going to be natural allies with England against France. Rather than make obnoxious demands on England regarding Russia's pursuit of dominance, all you need to do is let this coalition work against France for you. Sending a small contingent to help potentially nets you PP to stay on track to win.

Instead, you counsel the Russian to play like a mafiaso running a protection racket. Yeah, Austria and Prussia are going to be screwed as a result of your selfishness. But the big winner will be France. France will take 3 provinces from Prussia and Austria, precluding you from getting the territories you wanted for dominance. And when the Grand Armee enters Russia, you'll be facing the French collossus alone, as your failure to be a team player resulted in Prussia and Austria being laid prostrate, and a pissed off England letting you swing in the wind. Expect Turkey to invade along with France, because you will have obviously alienated anyone from being your ally!

Really? It is ok for England and France to be dominant, but NOT Russia.
I suppose you feel the same for the other 4 powers?

And somehow it is ok for ENGLAND to get Sweden, but not Russia? Why is that again?
No, I will fight an England with that attitude, and I can tell you exactly what will happen.

He will quit playing roughly 36 turns into the game when he realizes that he cant stop the French.
Who's fault is that again?

Seems to me that a Dominant Russia makes it much easier to contain France.
Silly me.

BTW I dont fear a solo invasion of Russia by France nor with his sidekick Turkey.
Only ENGLAND has the kind of cash needed to allow Turkey to move his corp around.

Are you serious, or are you just roleplaying the stereotypical paranoid Russian????

Although I've commented on seeing an agressive Britian press it's claim for Sweden, I didn't say that I thought that was how it should be. Really, from the Coalition's point of view, Sweden should go to whatever power can most effectively use it to benefit the coalition. If that means an experienced Brit with the cash to build it quickly, and a good plan to hit France in the rear, so be it. If that means going to an agressive Russian with a hot hand on the chit picks and the dice, then Yip Yip Yahoo for Russia!

BUT, let's go back to your fundamental premise: That you "demand" that Britain sell out its allies, Prussia and Austria, at the outset of the game, in order to serve YOUR selfish desire to be dominant. That they agree to let you declare war on, and take territory, from Britain's two biggest continental allies, not to mention distracting them from taking on France. I think that is mind bogglingly arrogant.

How does taking provinces from Prussian and Austria make you a "team player"? How is that constructive to the task of building an effective coalition against France?

I stand by my original assessment: You want to play that way, fine. But don't expect anyone on the Coalition side to be your buddy for it. All you do is ensure that France is able to defeat Prussia and Austria in detail. From there, France will take all the German and Italian prinicipalities, and then it will come for you.

And with France owning every province from Brittany to Warsaw to Naples, why you think France wouldn't have enough of a slush fund to pay for Turkish supply is beyond me. Having effectively sabotaged the Coalition against France, why should you be surprised if Britain herself funds Turkey against you. It's not like you could do anything about it anyway.

In summary: If it got you to play nice with your neighbors, I'd let you have Sweden as the British player. But no way am I, as Britian, going to stand by and let you carve up Prussia and Austria for your own self aggrandisement---Russian dominance isn't required to defeat France, only that you be willing to send Kutusov and a stack of corps to fight France. Such a course of action by Russia is self-defeating: France will get the provinces you covet in Austria and Prussia long before you do and with no help from other allies, the Russian WILL lose to a co-ordinated invasion by France and Turkey.

Your course of action only leads the Russian to playing the spoiler to the benefit of the French player.

All that is YOUR synopsis, not mine.

I said nothing at all about declaring war upon Prussia or Austria.
YOU did.

I said nothing at all about not helping them against France, unless I am busy fighting England of course.

My original post was about SWEDEN.

You see in MY experience, the English player likes to grab Sweden to ENSURE Russia not become Dominant.
He can already do that, by declaring war of course, but that isnt as subtle.
As I said, I want the English cards on the table at the START.

I might point out that the historical result was Russian dominance.

And if you fear other player dominance, then I am sure you understand why the entire world allys against
England to take away YOUR dominance?
Since you apparently feel Dominance is bad.

As for spoiler for France, that is exactly what the English call players that dont conform to their idea of how to play.
If England was more concerned about actually fighting FRANCE, than ensuring Russia knuckle under, then maybe
France would be contained.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 138

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/7/2006 3:33:41 PM

McGuire

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline

@Joisey & Sardonic (alphabetic)
From my point of view this game is about diplomacy. Not moving chits somewhere and having luck with the dices...
That's part of it - but not the main one!

@Sardonic
I think it's pretty short-sighted to start a game as RU with the announced goal: DOMINANCE
1. There will be a good laugh in the group of players.
2. You will have at least 3-4 players on your borders making sure this does'n happen. Named AU/PR, TU an
GB by sea. Not mentioning that FR (ok, not really at your border).
3. If you really manage. Well the above players will do their very best to take it away again.

I think there's only one way to get dominant as RU. That is if at least AU/PR want you to. For example if the last fight was a draw (with lots of territorial losses for AU/PR) just because you came rushing to assist AU/PR against FR.
This way they'll want a strong ally in the backhand lending them troops.
And we should always remember: another dominant power is weakening FR.

My two cents!

_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 139

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/7/2006 11:45:50 PM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuire

@Joisey & Sardonic (alphabetic)
From my point of view this game is about diplomacy. Not moving chits somewhere and having luck with the dices...
That's part of it - but not the main one!

@Sardonic
I think it's pretty short-sighted to start a game as RU with the announced goal: DOMINANCE
1. There will be a good laugh in the group of players.
2. You will have at least 3-4 players on your borders making sure this does'n happen. Named AU/PR, TU an
GB by sea. Not mentioning that FR (ok, not really at your border).
3. If you really manage. Well the above players will do their very best to take it away again.

I think there's only one way to get dominant as RU. That is if at least AU/PR want you to. For example if the last fight was a draw (with lots of territorial losses for AU/PR) just because you came rushing to assist AU/PR against FR.
This way they'll want a strong ally in the backhand lending them troops.
And we should always remember: another dominant power is weakening FR.

My two cents!

For France to win, he must attack and defeat Prussia and Austria.
He has no choice.

Since I am aware of this, and since Turkey is a natural target for me.....

But let us assume Your right. Then France will crush them easily.
Defending against a Russian attack that never comes seems a futile endevor.
Because I dont see the play of the game the way you do.

I didnt say I would attack Prussia or Austria. In fact I doubt it is needed.
But Sweden IS needed. And if the English intend to dictate what I do, and how I do it, then
I must say that doesnt sound much like an ally to me.

You see I have played the game many times, and I have found ENGLAND angers far more people than France.
In fact so much so, that often there is a continental wide building of ships with French money.
And no matter how good England is, or how lucky he is, he cant hold off the entire world.

When I play England, I offer 2$ per French casualty, unless it bankrupts me.
Thus the potencial allys know exactly what to expect from me.

(in reply to McGuire)

Post #: 140

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/8/2006 6:18:35 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

Under the conditions for Russia to gain dominance, at the very least you have to take East and West Galicia from Austria. To do that you have to declare war on Austria, ergo, it is implied in your "demand" to England, which is why it is so obnoxious.

Its hard to see how attacking Austria "helps out" against France.

As I said, a Russian drive for dominance will only result in a big French win. Unless you hold off on your conquest for dominance until after France is vanquished. But, again, I'm only going by what you said, and you said that you "demand" England's acquiescence at the very beginning. This requires England to immediately start the game being unfaithful to Austria, and would be repugnant to me.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 141

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/8/2006 6:35:09 PM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

Under the conditions for Russia to gain dominance, at the very least you have to take East and West Galicia from Austria. To do that you have to declare war on Austria, ergo, it is implied in your "demand" to England, which is why it is so obnoxious.

Its hard to see how attacking Austria "helps out" against France.

As I said, a Russian drive for dominance will only result in a big French win. Unless you hold off on your conquest for dominance until after France is vanquished. But, again, I'm only going by what you said, and you said that you "demand" England's acquiescence at the very beginning. This requires England to immediately start the game being unfaithful to Austria, and would be repugnant to me.

Ahh well it is a long game and alot can happen. For example: France defeats the First Coalition and takes
East and West Galacia. In such a case, I no longer need to attack Austria.

I would need to fight France, but then it is very likely I will have to do that anyway.
However I want to let England know, right away, that my fleets are MINE. I do what I want with them.
(Usually supplying a coastal advance)
And that I will fight over Sweden. Yes, he can stop me from taking it. But only by focusing all his attention
on doing that. I however am unrelenting. It is up to England how long he wishs to give France a free hand.
Also, Spain will quite likely take Portugal, I mean why not?

The Russian have a great many men, they can simply keep comming. Sweden alone is NOT gonna hold them off.
In fact, I would guess that EVERYONE would be relieved to see England distracted.
Certainly Turkey would enjoy a free hand.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 142

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/13/2006 8:45:29 PM

Roads

Posts: 180
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: massachusetts
Status: offline

quote:

As I said, a Russian drive for dominance will only result in a big French win. Unless you hold off on your conquest for dominance until after France is vanquished. But, again, I'm only going by what you said, and you said that you "demand" England's acquiescence at the very beginning. This requires England to immediately start the game being unfaithful to Austria, and would be repugnant to me.

I don't see how it's any more obnoxious than a Britain that demands Sweden. Or indeed any more likely to cause a French win. If I'm Russia, and Britain demonstrates on the very first turn that he is more interested in ensuring that I can never get dominance than in beating France, who is actually dominant, I'm going to be worried about how I can ever win the game. What the British player who demands Sweden is saying is that he's happy to let France succeed simply to stop Russia. As Russia this is an attitude that is going to ruin my chances of winning. And 1805 is the best time to teach Britain that his attitude is counter-productive. The balance of power is more favorable for Russia than it will ever be, and there is more time to stop France once Britain sees the light.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 143

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/14/2006 6:46:32 AM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roads

quote:

As I said, a Russian drive for dominance will only result in a big French win. Unless you hold off on your conquest for dominance until after France is vanquished. But, again, I'm only going by what you said, and you said that you "demand" England's acquiescence at the very beginning. This requires England to immediately start the game being unfaithful to Austria, and would be repugnant to me.

I don't see how it's any more obnoxious than a Britain that demands Sweden. Or indeed any more likely to cause a French win. If I'm Russia, and Britain demonstrates on the very first turn that he is more interested in ensuring that I can never get dominance than in beating France, who is actually dominant, I'm going to be worried about how I can ever win the game. What the British player who demands Sweden is saying is that he's happy to let France succeed simply to stop Russia. As Russia this is an attitude that is going to ruin my chances of winning. And 1805 is the best time to teach Britain that his attitude is counter-productive. The balance of power is more favorable for Russia than it will ever be, and there is more time to stop France once Britain sees the light.

I agree that Sweden is worth trading for early Russian participation in attacking France.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to Roads)

Post #: 144

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/14/2006 10:57:07 AM

McGuire

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

I agree that Sweden is worth trading for early Russian participation in attacking France.

I gave this some thought - and well I do not completely agree.
This trade would be problematic for RU at best.

1. Politics (1)
You'll have to ally with AU/PR - well no big deal. I did this from time to time, even without some kind of trade for Sweden.

2. Economics
To help in a way that really matters you'll have to be in the fighting zone in march. Otherwise, with some bad luck, the war might be already decided as you get to it! But this means marching your troops in the winter - and that is too expensive! RU can spend the money with much greater effect.

3. Military
You'll be forced to move the bulk of your forces down to the fighting zone to ensure you'll get some of them back. That leaves you weak against a Tu invasion. Which leads to:

4. Politics (4)
You cannot afford the TU rampaging through your territory. So you'll have to be on his good side. But for he is your source of PP - well, you'll have a problem there!

In the case I'd get such a proposal, I'd give a counter-proposal.

1. I secure the border to TU for AU. This way they don't have to hold back any army factors or even corps to secure that area.
2. I rush my cossacs to the FR-PR/AU border. Maybe they'll get there in time. Not for fighting but for Bocking/braking the french supply-lines.

And that's all I'd offer. Maybe they'll fall for it - maybe they won't.
But that's as much help as I can give AU/PR without weakening myself too much!

My two cents.

_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 145

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/14/2006 1:42:31 PM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

Eh?

Truthfully, no one is flush with cash at the start of the game.
France is gonna have a bit of trouble getting into Bavaria also.
So you have a small amount of time. NOT alot of time, but some.

Lets assume:

Britain says that it isnt worth listening to you whining and gives you Sweden, and takes Norway.
Ok now.....lets be honest....you OWE him participation.
As Britain, I cant stand to see players sit on their asses after spending my money.

So even ten points of infantry will help. Hell send twenty.

Turkey has so little cash, that you will watch his army attrit to death just getting to you.
He is much better off taking Syria.

And never welch on a deal. Nothing is more loathed than a liar.

Do what you promised you would. It makes you look good, in the end.

That is why I offer a bounty on french casualties. I always pay up.
If I have the cash, I may pay up to 5$ per dead french. (but that would be extraordinary)

The point is that they are dead. And France is under pressure.

(in reply to Roads)

Post #: 146

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/14/2006 6:44:11 PM

McGuire

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
Lets assume:

Britain says that it isnt worth listening to you whining and gives you Sweden, and takes Norway.
Ok now.....lets be honest....you OWE him participation.

First: I don't really know about the whining part - but well!
Second: If I make a deal with GB - than it's a deal! I fulfill my side of the bargain and after that I OWE him a good hand of crap - no more!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
As Britain, I cant stand to see players sit on their asses after spending my money.

Great, for RU didn't spend ANY of GB's money, this cannot relay to my prior post....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
So even ten points of infantry will help. Hell send twenty.

Turkey has so little cash, that you will watch his army attrit to death just getting to you.
He is much better off taking Syria.

Absolutely and completely right!
RU starts with 92 army factors (including cossacs). Send ten, or maybe twenty and it leaves you 72 AFs.
An then TU comes with well let's say 139 AFs. Well I think a 2:1 advantage is worth going to a CP.
And then you stuck in a situation where you cannot declare war for 24 months and pay half your income to him - that's 37,5 GP.

And after hours and hours of calculation we see that Syria is the much better choice!
You get 3 gold and 4 manpower from Syria - and only 35 GP fropm RU. And for TU has so much money - Syria is the right choice!

NOT!
(by the way: this is called "sarcasm")

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
And never welch on a deal. Nothing is more loathed than a liar.

Do what you promised you would. It makes you look good, in the end.

Actually I didn't say anything about welching a deal! So this is not relayed to my post either, is it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
That is why I offer a bounty on french casualties. I always pay up.
If I have the cash, I may pay up to 5$ per dead french. (but that would be extraordinary)

The point is that they are dead. And France is under pressure.

I'm curious! Who's paying you that money?
Let's assue the following:
- You send 20 AFs
- PR/AU/FR send all their AFs

- FR: 157 AFs
- AU/PR: 197 AFs
- RU: 20 AFs

Thst's about 160 vs 220. And 1/11 of the FR casulties go onto your account.
Assuming half of the FR is slain, so you killed 7-8 AFs, right?
That's 21-24 GP counting with a 3$/casulty. With 5$ it's 35 - 40GP. That's just a guess, but even if AU and PR want to pay the price - they simply cannot afford it. Even with GB helping it's hard.
Just do some maths: That's the money for up to 13 Inf.

Just my two cents!
No wait! this is worth a bit more!

Just my dime!

_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 147

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/14/2006 7:24:04 PM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuire

First: I don't really know about the whining part - but well!
Second: If I make a deal with GB - than it's a deal! I fulfill my side of the bargain and after that I OWE him a good hand of crap - no more!

Great, for RU didn't spend ANY of GB's money, this cannot relay to my prior post....

Absolutely and completely right!
RU starts with 92 army factors (including cossacs). Send ten, or maybe twenty and it leaves you 72 AFs.
An then TU comes with well let's say 139 AFs. Well I think a 2:1 advantage is worth going to a CP.
And then you stuck in a situation where you cannot declare war for 24 months and pay half your income to him - that's 37,5 GP.

And after hours and hours of calculation we see that Syria is the much better choice!
You get 3 gold and 4 manpower from Syria - and only 35 GP fropm RU. And for TU has so much money - Syria is the right choice!

NOT!
(by the way: this is called "sarcasm")

Actually I didn't say anything about welching a deal! So this is not relayed to my post either, is it?

I'm curious! Who's paying you that money?
Let's assue the following:
- You send 20 AFs
- PR/AU/FR send all their AFs

- FR: 157 AFs
- AU/PR: 197 AFs
- RU: 20 AFs

Thst's about 160 vs 220. And 1/11 of the FR casulties go onto your account.
Assuming half of the FR is slain, so you killed 7-8 AFs, right?
That's 21-24 GP counting with a 3$/casulty. With 5$ it's 35 - 40GP. That's just a guess, but even if AU and PR want to pay the price - they simply cannot afford it. Even with GB helping it's hard.
Just do some maths: That's the money for up to 13 Inf.

Just my two cents!
No wait! this is worth a bit more!

Just my dime!

No not all elements were in reply to your post.

I dont think that Turkey will have or maintain a 2/1 advantage on his own resources.
I dont think Turkey can solo force a surrender. So I am not worried about Turkey.
His army is crap. I can crush it.

As for the bounty...that would be as British.

(in reply to McGuire)

Post #: 148

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/15/2006 12:38:52 AM

Joisey

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline

I agree, Russia just doesn't have to worry about Turkey at the beginning of the game.

Turkey has no money, so you can be sure those feudal troops will be taking foraging roll losses as they march into the Russian steppes. When they do, you get extra cossacks. At the beginning of the game, France will be too busy building out its corps to spare any for Turkey.

Yes, you may lose some local income for a short time, but when you clash with the Turk, you'll probably give him a good spanking so consider the lost gold your purchase price for political points.

Once his feudals have vaporized, it'll be the Turk asking for a CP.

I've never seen a game of EiA yet where the Turk passed up going for Syria and Egypt to pick a winter war with Russia out of the blocks.

Re: Russian participation against France. As GB, I would demand that Russia contribute AT LEAST an equal amount of troops as the fully built out Swedish Corps that they are getting in the deal. Ideally, I'd want the Russian to cough up 4 infantry corps, a calvary corp, and Kutusov.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to Sardonic)

Post #: 149

RE: Best way to play each power - 9/15/2006 1:02:13 AM

Sardonic

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

I agree, Russia just doesn't have to worry about Turkey at the beginning of the game.

Turkey has no money, so you can be sure those feudal troops will be taking foraging roll losses as they march into the Russian steppes. When they do, you get extra cossacks. At the beginning of the game, France will be too busy building out its corps to spare any for Turkey.

Yes, you may lose some local income for a short time, but when you clash with the Turk, you'll probably give him a good spanking so consider the lost gold your purchase price for political points.

Once his feudals have vaporized, it'll be the Turk asking for a CP.

I've never seen a game of EiA yet where the Turk passed up going for Syria and Egypt to pick a winter war with Russia out of the blocks.

Re: Russian participation against France. As GB, I would demand that Russia contribute AT LEAST an equal amount of troops as the fully built out Swedish Corps that they are getting in the deal. Ideally, I'd want the Russian to cough up 4 infantry corps, a calvary corp, and Kutusov.

With a pledge to replace my losses (if any) and to allow me to use my fleets in the Baltic to supply the advance,
sure why not? But I think Sweden is a bit weak at the start? I am unsure.

Of course this requires either Prussia or Austria dont object.
But Kutusov isnt gonna beat Nappy. Get over that.
I iwll send him sure, but he wont win.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 150