Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read)

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read)

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Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/15/2006 5:24:02 AM

Capt Henry_MatrixForum

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Joined: 4/1/2005
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CVN65 and I are in mid-June of a Stock 15 PBEM. I've been slapped around for the obligatory six months and am starting to look at hitting back. I've not had much success weakening the Japanese carrier force, none have been sunk. Shoho did try some recon of Colombo and took several 500 pounders for her pains, I think she's repairing at Singapore. Hiryu took one torpedo and a 250lb bomb off Darwin and is repairing somewhere. A fair number of IJN carrier pilots have been shot down by flak and allied fighters. I probably haven't been aggressive enough with my air assets, but I do believe I have at least a 1:1 A2A ratio against Japanese fighters in general and the Zero in the specific as CVN has used Zeroes a lot on long range escort missions. There are five P-40Bs in the pool and about 38 Es. I've lost everything between Australia and Mandalay, with Port Moresby falling at the end of May. CVN had five divisions plus over 30 supporting formations in the Port Moresby assault and it took him about two/three weeks to defeat the one division I had stationed there. I have one division at most threatened Australian bases with very good aviation support along northern and eastern Aus. Noumea is building up fairly well with two full divisions, several base forces and brigades in place. All three airfields are at least level four and Noumea will soon be a level 9 port so minelayers are on the way to take advantage of that. Luganville and Efate are also building up and have some defenses in place, but not as good as Noumea. The carriers are in a moderately safe place as I did some early raiding with them but lost track of the KB and didn't really want to run into that. I'm probably six to eight weeks from Avengers and have decided that it's not worth trying to do something with the carriers in the time I have left before they get torpedo planes that might actually do something.

While I'm sure there are a lot of things to improve on here, the theater I'm actually looking at is SEAC. I have about 1000 assault points currently holding Mandalay and it's 9 forts (BR Burma Corps is leading) with the balance of SEAC forces back in India. The Imperial Guards Division and the 55th Division are at Mandalay with a lower assault value than my troops. A mixed brigade and (i think) two SNLF are at Pagan. I've been trying to get a handle on Rangoon but haven't found out more than that there are five units in Rangoon. Very few Japanese air assets are currently in theater. There is at least one squadron of Oscars at Rangoon and that's all the non-recon aircraft I've found. On my side, Mandalay is a level five airfield with lots of support and Akyab is approaching level four. I have no aircraft based at Akyab as all two-engine bombers in the theater have been conducting ground attacks on the enemy at Mandalay or standing by with torpedoes in case any targets show up. I have the three large four-engine bombers formations which have been bombing Rangoon as their morale and aircraft repairs allow. The Diamond Harbor, Calcutta, Chadpur, Dacca aifields are all built up.

Interestingly, bombing and recon efforts have suggested the Moulmein is devoid of Japanese troops and that Tavoy may be in the same condition. Intel is based on several weeks of bombing a month or two ago and then occassional raids since. For about two weeks of game time I've been thinking about an amphibious assault on Moulmein. The plan would start by moving air assets up to Akyab and Mandalay so that the two engine bombers could more easily assist my Liberators and Forts in bombing Rangoon. I would send over 3,000 assault points in three groups, a small Moulmein assault force combat loaded in small APs, Indian IV Corps (950AV) in a second force, and Indian III Corps (1900AV) in the third force. The 224 RAF Group, Base Force, and Aviation Group would also be transported. All Royal Navy surface forces would provide be organized into Bombardment groups and four RN carriers (at least two Seafire equipped) would cover the attack. The III and IV Corps would be one or two days behind the Moulmein assault force hoping to use port facilities to unload once Moulmein falls. As soon as the aviation support unloads, three or four squadrons of Spitfires with an equal number of Hurricane squadrons could base out of Moulmein to cover the ground forces. Additional fighter squadrons would be available to relieve fatigued units. I also have the AVG with two P-40B squadrons and one P-36 squadron available.

If Moulmein doesn't fall to the initial assault, I can evaluate if I want to land the main forces or run for home. If Moulmein does fall, small blocking forces would move on Tavoy and Rahaeng. Another, slightly larger blocking force would move on Pagan/Mandalay although BR Burma Corps will advance if a movement is made from Mandalay. III Corps would lay siege to Rangoon until it falls. If all this actually works, I can look at moving forward or sending IV Corps further south to establish a defensive position, send BR Burma Corps to Rangoon to rest and rebuild, and send III Corps back to India to provide some security there as I would be leaving India pretty bare while this offensive was moving.

Finally, the op would not go until most of the KB shows up on some other front. To haul all those troops, I have about 120,000 AP capacity points and 700,000 AK capacity points. I've got over 600,000 supply and 450,000 fuel at Diamond Harbor and have more on the way. It would likely be six more weeks before I could go unless I went without Seafires and with fewers Spitfires available for Moulmein.

The major risk I see is my opponent going behind me at India. Given his style of play so far, I think it's a risk I'm willing to take. What are the other unintelligent or overly optimistic parts of this idea?

Post #: 1

RE: Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/15/2006 8:13:49 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

For about two weeks of game time I've been thinking about an amphibious assault on Moulmein.

My advice: DON'T DO IT! Let me list the reasons:
1. You don't hold Rangoon. He probably has base forces there and can repo in air assets that are most likely training somewhere close, like Singapore. Even though you are bombing it regularly, he can bring in enough fighters to really put a dent in your heavy bomber force. Then he can practise sea denial with his Bettys. Even a Daitai of Kates stationed within range of Moulemin will cause untold havoc on your transports.

2. If Rangoon is closed, he has many other bases within easy range of Tavoy and Moulmein that he can launch raids on your naval forces and airfields with.

3. You will not be able to provide any ground based fighter support except for maybe Buffalos flying out of Akyab, Mandalay or Andamann Island (you didn't mention who holds it... if he does that means big trouble). Chances are he will tear them up, assuming his experience levels are still good.

4. The British fleet is no match for KB and cannot go toe to toe with it. That means you will not be able to control the sea lanes between Chandpur and Moulmein. He may not be able to either but he dosen't have to. He just has to prevent you from using them.

5. Consider the number of forces you will need to withstand a strong counter attack. It may take a week or two for him to muster the troops up but I gaurantee he will counterattack.

6. Any major deployment of your forces to Moulemin weakens you elsewhere in the theater and invites a counter invasion. And if he does that, he most likely will bypass you and go for the throat, maybe Ceylon or even the Diamond Harbor area. If he is successful in doing that, a major portion of your forces will be cut off from supply and reinforcement. Nothing like being out of supply and cutoff in a malaria zone.

7. One last point... Assuming your invasion is successful, just how do you plan to keep your forces supplied when he does bring in enough air force to interdict your ships?

Its only Summer of 42, you need to wait until your first Essex class arrives at least before launching any major counter offensives. No sense getting bogged down in a place of little overall importance this early in the game. Even if you are successful and hold off the counter attack, what have you really gained?

What you need to do is sit down and plan a long term strategy for where you want to go and how you plan to get there. Figure the forces you'll need and begin planning and prepostioning them to their jumpoff points. Don't get greedy and don't jump the gun unless you have a major opportunity present itself (one that is worth losing carriers over).

Just MHO.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Capt Henry_MatrixForum)

Post #: 2

RE: Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/15/2006 10:32:28 AM

AmiralLaurent

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
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If you try to invade Moulmein or Tavoy, your opponent may quickly gather 200 Nell/Betties/Sallies and hundred of fighters and will have a field day on your shipping... And may also have a naval surface squadron in Singapore.

At this stage of the war, the Japan mobile forces (not counting China, Kwantung and Home Defense) should be something like 12 div and 6 Bdes. You know 5 Div were used in PM, and 2 Div are in Mandalay. Try to find some others and then you can porbably forget about an India invasion.

In this case, you can attempt a counter-offensive, but it will be on the ground in Burma, send 1000 more ASS points to Mandalay and kick the Japanese out of the city, or threaten to surround them.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 3

RE: Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/15/2006 8:53:27 PM

niceguy2005

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From: Super secret hidden base
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I have often thought of a similar strategy. I may have missed it in your post, but do you hold Andaman?

Basically, without a base from which to fly decent CAP over your landing site I don't see it as feasible against a human opponent, it would even be tough against the AI. Here are my thoughts:

1. Rangoon is going to give you serious heartburn. Your best hope in executing this plan is an all out attack on the airfield at Rangoon just before the invasion, if you are lucky you will catch a lot of planes on the ground. Word of warning I tried a naval bombardment once of Rangoon with 3BBs and a large cruiser force. The CDs sunk one BB outright and wrecked another. The Nells finished off about half the fleet on the long sail back home.

2. If you invade, don't test the waters, go all in. Put everyone ashore right away. If you go with a half hearted invasion your opponent can react faster than you can. Your worst case scenario is the KB or 300 Betties showing up with half your invasion force at sea. Your best hope is to get an army ashore fully supplied (in fact with plenty of extra) before he can move in addtional bombers, the KB, etc. If you go with just a small force they are less likely to capture the port and it will take you too long to land additional troops, plus reinforcements will face much stiffer resistance.

3. Your availability of good CAP fighters is a little limited, but not a deal breaker. You need those P-40's flying cap from Andaman, Buffs won't cut it and Hurris and Spits won't have the range to cover your invasion. I suspect you will want the RN screening the Malacca Straight. If Andaman isn't in your hands, then forget it, it would be suicide.

4. Think the supply and reinforcement situation through carefully, as well as what you will do once you're ashore. How much force does he have in Malaya and Sian? Can he come at you with an equal number of troops quickly. He doesn't have to repulse your invasion immediately just bog it down until your out of supply. It seems that the key would be to blitz Rangoon. Is that your plan?

On the upside if you pull this off it will be Inchon style results. You can basically win back Burma in one fail swoop.

One last thought. If you pull this off be prepared to drive the attack home. Don't stop at Rangoon. Having the shipping and the reinforcements ready to keep the Blitz right on going down to Sing. If it works, it's likely to work big! If it fails, well...

_____________________________

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Capt Henry_MatrixForum)

Post #: 4

RE: Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/15/2006 10:32:06 PM

Capt. Harlock

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From: Los Angeles
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One important point: how many battlewagons and cruisers do you have remaining for shore bombardment? If the equivalent of three BB's or more, you can afford to concentrate your air assets on Rangoon and soften up Mandalay from the sea. If not, I have to agree with the posters above: you won't be able to neutralize Rangoon, which will eventually be fatal.

_____________________________

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(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 5

RE: Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/16/2006 1:59:07 AM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

Pay the PP's send one of the USMC Para Bns to India in 60 days and use them to annoy your opponent (and destroy the forts) by siezing the bases.

Do not risk an invasion unless you are 100% certain you know where KB is and even then the level of force required would leave India wide open

If you can hold onto Mandalay sit tight come late 42 he will really regret not taking it.

Mandalay is the key to Burma so sit tight and secure it after you retreat him once from that hex he has a nasty nasty choice defend non malaria Rangoon and get cut off or dont Moulmien can supply the allied advance as a port and you will have LBA to protect it.

You have done well dont waste it

Andy

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 6

RE: Critique Sought (CVN please d/n read) - 9/16/2006 2:52:37 AM

erstad

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

One important point: how many battlewagons and cruisers do you have remaining for shore bombardment? If the equivalent of three BB's or more, you can afford to concentrate your air assets on Rangoon and soften up Mandalay from the sea. If not, I have to agree with the posters above: you won't be able to neutralize Rangoon, which will eventually be fatal.

Soften Mandalay from the sea?

How come I never get Tomahawk missiles as the Allies?

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 7

Requested Info - 9/16/2006 5:59:46 AM

Capt Henry_MatrixForum

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Some responses to provide requested info:

Niceguy

1. Rangoon's coastal defense guns are currently an unknown. Currently, I don't think that there are any bombers based there. Just one Oscar squadron and some recon planes. My heavies are resting and repairing at the moment.

2. Current intel indicates that Moulmein has no garrison (very odd). My thought was to have a small force one or two days ahead of the main body. If the intel on Moulmein is accurate, a small force can take the base so all followup groups can unload using the port and avoid the amphib casualties. Question, since most of the main body is planning for Rangoon, would landings at Moulmein suffer higher landing casualties. If a large force suddenly appears at Moulmein, I have the ability to pull back before committing the main force. Under no circumstances would I start this movement unless I was able to confirm at least the majority of the KB was elsewhere. This would likely mean that I couldn't launch until my opponent starts another offensive in the Pacific. I still have major problems with land based bombers, but shouldn't have to worry about the KB for awhile.

3. The first days are the big problem for CAP. I don't believe that my current fighter force is up to this task and would prefer to wait until I've got several squadrons reequipped to Spits with a replacement pool at least started. I do hold Andaman, but the facilities aren't very improved as the base starts the game in such an isolated position. I've been concerned that building up the base will only aid my opponent when he gets around to going after it. RN and Dutch subs would be in Malacca to try to give some warning of a Japanese approach.

4. Everything would depend on a fairly quick battle at Rangoon. Present intel shows a force of less that 7,000 in place. I would have to spend a lot of the next five or six weeks reconning Rangoon to try to firm this up. A long air campaign would have to preclude any movement in order to soften up Rangoon.

Final thoughts, it could work big but I agree there is a high degree of risk here if it bombs. The best exist strategy I've come up with is a movement back towards Mandalay with one Corps and the other trying a seaborne retreat. Realistically, I'd probably be looking and having all forces move on Mandalay, which does leave India pretty open. The only reason I'm even thinking of this is my experience with my particular opponent both in this game and in a previous, aborted WPO game. There's a certain amount of "I think this opponent might let me get away with this" going on here. Of course there's always the possibility that he's trying to lull me into an action like this.

Capt. Harlock. I have POW, Repulse, Warspite, and two R class BBs available.

Andy Mac, I have thought about either sending a Para Bn via PP conversion or by sending one of the two formations currently in the South Pacific. I agree with the importance of holding Mandalay. All ground actions in the past month indicate the I have the stronger force now. There are some forces at Pagan that might help tip the scales, but I have several units across the river from Pagan watching them. If CVN moves north he has to shock attack and if he moves east to Mandalay I would try to swing around and cut him off in Mandalay.

Thanks to all for the comments so far. I'm not convinced that I should scrap the idea entirely, but believe I'd need to get a lot more intel on my opponent's dispositions before doing anything. I believe that I will have the force to drive the Japanese back from Mandalay, but before taking that course of action need to convince myself that a more decisive action would not be possible. More thoughts are welcome, there are at least five or six weeks (more likely 8-9) before I could possibly launch an op and we're playing about one turn a day with a couple more over the weekend so I have lots of time to think about what I might do.

Capt Henry

(in reply to Capt Henry_MatrixForum)

Post #: 8

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