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We don't need no stinkin' FO's

 
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We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/5/2006 4:37:58 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Guess what?
I ran a test and the Conventional Wisdom for FO use from CPT Pixel’s guide is wrong (!). The artillery formation leader can call a barrage for his formation’s guns as quick as the FO can. For example, if B is my battery of guns, then B0 can call a barrage as the spotter for all B units and the delay time is the same as if the FO had called it. This is true only for his formation’s guns though, so C0 must spot for his artillery formation’s guns and so forth. I tested this with German, Russian, U.S. Army and USMC units, so if anyone else finds something different, please post.
I have also checked about artillery units that you can purchase with an infantry squad as leader. These have the infantry separate (in his own formation) and the artillery in formations where an artillery unit is the formation leader. However, if you deliberately assign an artillery unit to another unit in the deployment phase, then that new leader unit can call a barrage for that artillery unit with the same delay that an FO would give it. This is how it works with infantry platoons that have mortars, too. There is still the chance that the artillery unit will not receive a combat bonus because the new leader may not have a high artillery command score. You could assign a battery directly to, say a scout that you know is going to have LOS, so that you get quick reaction time and accuracy.
What about off board stuff or using the FO as a scout? The A0 can call in off-board strikes (artillery/naval gunfire/aircraft) with only about a .2 increase in the delay that an FO would get. Also, if the artillery formation leader calls a shot near the target and a scout with LOS immediately adjusts it on target, again the additional delay is only about .2.
Soooo...you don't have to use an FO, unless you use C&C on and you want the extra orders. In small battles or scenarios where your budget is tight (HotM, etc.), it really would be a waste. I have shown, in all other cases, that you should be able to work around not having one.


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RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/5/2006 5:14:46 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Except you run the risk of each individual formation being out of contact. In the newer versions I am pretty sure if the 0 unit of your formation is out of contact with higher command the artillery function doesnt work.

I know in older versions I routinely used the battery command unit to call fire with on map units even when out of command with higher headquarters, but seems to me the newer versions dont allow it.

Test that for us?

And of course the next question is, if that scout is the command unit and his assigned artillery are out of contact with him, can he still call them for fire?

In small battles I can see an arguement not to spend the points on a FO, in large battles I fail to see the point. My core force always has at least one FO.

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 2
RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/5/2006 6:33:11 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, I already tested that. If the artillery formations are kept within three hexes of the A0, then they will never be out of contact. If I assign the guns to a scout and the scout is out of contact, then the guns are still in contact because they are near to the A0. Each gun can call its own barrage and again the delay is the same as that for an FO. You don’t get the accuracy bonus for a spotter with LOS, but you still get the speed of an FO, without the FO.
You can’t be a little pregnant with this. It makes sense all the time.



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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/11/2006 6:25:54 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Of course, if you play with C&C ON as the game was intended to be played, then FO's are a luxury that you would not be without.

Only wimps play with C&C OFF.


But even so, if your FO is indeed in a forward position where he can see the enemy osition he is calling fire upon, the bombardment is much more satisfying.

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RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/11/2006 7:07:16 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		C and C is an artifically imposed restriction on the ability of the player to use his forces. There is absolutely no reason to believe its restrictions are "accurate" to a combat situation. And correct me if I am wrong but havent we been told the computer AI ignores said restrictions? Since it is as dumb as a box of rocks about coordinated movement of units?

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RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/11/2006 4:18:39 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Major D-If you assign a battery of artillery to a scout, then he can call quick strikes for the battery just as an FO would. Put him where he has a LOS and you're set. Scouts are cheaper than FO's. Also, I thought that the whole point of C&C on was to make you plan better, so just plan on no FO.

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 10/11/2006 4:21:04 PM >

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/17/2006 12:44:19 AM   
John Galt

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 1/31/2001
From: Salem, NH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

If you assign a battery of artillery to a scout, then he can call quick strikes for the battery just as an FO would.

Can you explain how to do this please?

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Post #: 7
RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/17/2006 2:05:50 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		John Galt,

You can assign units to different formations during your deployment.  I think that is what Poopyhead is talking about. 

Also, this artillery "trick" Poopyhead is talking about has been around since SP-III (since 1997), so this isn't a recent development. 

Also, the only argument against not having an FO is that you have so few points that spending an extra 40 or so for the FO is too expensive.  But most games players have an adequate number of points so that the advantages of having an FO outweigh not buying one.  The main advantage is time.  It takes a lot of time to cycle through each individual artillery formation and plot for each individual artillery formation.  Also, cycling through each individual artillery formation can create errors, oversights, misplots, etc.  Having an FO greatly simplifies artillery procedures.  It's almost always worth the 40 points to just buy an FO and save yourself a lot of headaches later.

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Post #: 8
RE: We don't need no stinkin' FO's - 10/17/2006 6:54:46 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		During deployment, you use the "Assign current unit to a new HQ" button and make the scout the "0"/leader for the artillery units. You don't even need to do this as the artillery leader can call his own barrage just as well without an FO.

I don't know about SP II, but this does work and is not mentioned anywhere that I could find. I am not saying that everyone must do this, just that this is possible. If you are organized.

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 9
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