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B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 1:52:30 AM   
The Duke

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Just thought I'd share that in my PBEM, 2 or 3 of my fleet carriers were wrecked by B-29s flying out of Darwin, hitting my TF on the north side of Mindanao, Phillipines. 26 Hexes, baby.

1,560 miles each way. Strategic bomber. Gotta love it.
Post #: 1
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 1:55:56 AM   
Honda


Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline 		So what you're saying is we can hunt hunt them deep within our territory just by having a TF detected
I feel for you...

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AAR of my game vs Raver on my clan forum in croatian language (despite the language differences, no Ravers allowed)

(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 2
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 1:56:01 AM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		the were testing the worlds first guided AS missle 

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Post #: 3
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 2:25:36 AM   
Mark VII


Posts: 1838
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Brentwood,TN
Status: offline 		naaa, just laser guided gravity bombs from 30,000 feet.

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(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)
Post #: 4
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 2:37:58 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I won't comment...

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Mark VII)
Post #: 5
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 2:39:50 AM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		I will -absolute crap, demand a replay, any allied player who uses B29 naval strike aint in my book of opponents..................

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 6
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 2:56:25 AM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

I will -absolute crap, demand a replay, any allied player who uses B29 naval strike aint in my book of opponents..................



Most likely also set the bombers to 100 feet naval attack

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to 1275psi)
Post #: 7
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 12:32:50 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke

Just thought I'd share that in my PBEM, 2 or 3 of my fleet carriers were wrecked by B-29s flying out of Darwin, hitting my TF on the north side of Mindanao, Phillipines. 26 Hexes, baby.

1,560 miles each way. Strategic bomber. Gotta love it.




Glad I´ve got a house rule on that in my latest PBEM. And hoping that in my other PBEMs that I´ve got going my opponents won´t have the idea to do such things....

(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 8
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 4:52:32 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		The next patch will include a PDU path to upgrade the B-29's to B-52's so you can bomb Japan from Pearl. 
I feel that B-29's being used as Naval Attack is a game breaker. Naval Search is OK.


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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 9
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 5:08:41 PM   
SamCole

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I won't comment...


This is the most suprising post of the month.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 10
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 7:06:56 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

The next patch will include a PDU path to upgrade the B-29's to B-52's so you can bomb Japan from Pearl.
I feel that B-29's being used as Naval Attack is a game breaker. Naval Search is OK.



Ditto ..

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sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 11
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 7:55:07 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SamCole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I won't comment...


This is the most suprising post of the month.


But in essence I did!


_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to SamCole)
Post #: 12
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 8:32:05 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Chris don't worry i will never thought about such a Crap... better move as im totaly exited if my masterplan will work

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Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 13
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 9:04:41 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		i will comment this in traditional manner of Uber Allied fanboys:

"The Duke, just because B-29 weren't used as extremely long range bomber for naval targets, doesn't mean they couldn't be effective"... in other words what you ve just experienced is normal....



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(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 14
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 9:04:54 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Chris don't worry i will never thought about such a Crap... better move as im totaly exited if my masterplan will work



masterplan?? We´ll see....

(in reply to Przemcio231)
Post #: 15
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 10:39:25 PM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		Just curious how many times was the KB detected?

(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 16
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/7/2006 11:34:21 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		I can see it happening.  "Squadron 911, your assignment today is to patrol over the western end of the South China Sea and attack any enemy shipping spotted.  The PBYs and PBMs will be squacking on freq 675.38, so hit anything they report.  Good luck and good hunting."

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to ckk)
Post #: 17
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 1:04:17 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		I can just imagine the look on the Jap sailors faces as the B-29's launch their 20000lb bomb loads at 100 feet

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 18
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 1:31:30 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

Just thought I'd share that in my PBEM, 2 or 3 of my fleet carriers were wrecked by B-29s flying out of Darwin, hitting my TF on the north side of Mindanao, Phillipines. 26 Hexes, baby.

1,560 miles each way. Strategic bomber. Gotta love it.


This highlights another weakness in WitP's tactical routines. It applies to ALL long range tactical aircraft but I'll use Duke's example.

Consider that for a B-29 unit to attack ships at 1560 miles, they would need a minimum of 12 hours to prepare and fly to the target. Figure 2 hours for the sighting report to work its way through the system and get to where someone can make a decision. Then another 3 hours to load the aircraft and brief the crews, take off and form up. Then 7 hours of flight time to the target. During that time the warships (assuming a cruise speed of 20 knots) could move up to 240 miles from the initial point of detection. The yields a theorectical search area of something over 180,000 square miles.

It would take several hours to search that area. Totally unrealistic to expect them to do that free from interception.

BTW, I agree with 1275PSI. Anyone who uses B-29s in a naval attack role won't be included in my list of people to play.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 19
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 2:20:33 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Just thought I'd share that in my PBEM, 2 or 3 of my fleet carriers were wrecked by B-29s flying out of Darwin, hitting my TF on the north side of Mindanao, Phillipines. 26 Hexes, baby.

1,560 miles each way. Strategic bomber. Gotta love it.


This highlights another weakness in WitP's tactical routines. It applies to ALL long range tactical aircraft but I'll use Duke's example.

Consider that for a B-29 unit to attack ships at 1560 miles, they would need a minimum of 12 hours to prepare and fly to the target. Figure 2 hours for the sighting report to work its way through the system and get to where someone can make a decision. Then another 3 hours to load the aircraft and brief the crews, take off and form up. Then 7 hours of flight time to the target. During that time the warships (assuming a cruise speed of 20 knots) could move up to 240 miles from the initial point of detection. The yields a theorectical search area of something over 180,000 square miles.

It would take several hours to search that area. Totally unrealistic to expect them to do that free from interception.

BTW, I agree with 1275PSI. Anyone who uses B-29s in a naval attack role won't be included in my list of people to play.

Chez




B-29's do cruise a bit faster than you are giving them credit for, but otherwise I agree wholeheartedly. I'd put the "Allied Fanboy" who used such tactics in the same boat as the "Japanese Fanboy" who uses loopholes to conquer China in the first 4 months. I know their answer to any complaint is "But the Rules/Game makes it possible!"---but they are both jerks and deserve to be made to play each other for ever. I don't want any part of either one either.....

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 20
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 2:38:35 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline 		I'm an AFB, but that's definitely a cheesy move. What does your opponent have to say about it?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 21
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 2:59:05 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

B-29's do cruise a bit faster than you are giving them credit for


Hi, Mike. I used 220 kts for computations figuring that fuel might be an issue so they wouldn't be using a fast cruise speed. Then again... if the target is important enough...

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 22
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 5:12:19 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Just thought I'd share that in my PBEM, 2 or 3 of my fleet carriers were wrecked by B-29s flying out of Darwin, hitting my TF on the north side of Mindanao, Phillipines. 26 Hexes, baby.

1,560 miles each way. Strategic bomber. Gotta love it.


This highlights another weakness in WitP's tactical routines. It applies to ALL long range tactical aircraft but I'll use Duke's example.

Consider that for a B-29 unit to attack ships at 1560 miles, they would need a minimum of 12 hours to prepare and fly to the target. Figure 2 hours for the sighting report to work its way through the system and get to where someone can make a decision. Then another 3 hours to load the aircraft and brief the crews, take off and form up. Then 7 hours of flight time to the target. During that time the warships (assuming a cruise speed of 20 knots) could move up to 240 miles from the initial point of detection. The yields a theorectical search area of something over 180,000 square miles.

It would take several hours to search that area. Totally unrealistic to expect them to do that free from interception.

BTW, I agree with 1275PSI. Anyone who uses B-29s in a naval attack role won't be included in my list of people to play.

Chez


This same "problem" applies to some degree to any anti-shipping strike. I seem to recall that the program is supposed to take this into account (and it may not be doing so enough in most people's opinions), but even so long range strikes like that are going to sometimes work.

(BTW, was the B-29 equipped or equippable with some form of search radar?)

Oh, and if this is so unacceptable for B-29s to do why is it okay for Betties/Nells?

< Message edited by dtravel -- 10/8/2006 5:14:20 AM >

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 23
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 6:11:15 AM   
The Duke

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I'm an AFB, but that's definitely a cheesy move. What does your opponent have to say about it?


I've asked him to reconsider Superforts for naval.....no firm answer yet. We are playing PDU-on and haven't really set any sort of pregame arrangements....we're playing the full scenario so I sure wasn't looking ahead to May '44 and B29s roaming the skies above my TF.

He also says that only 45 B29s attacked, and only 1 carrier was seriously damaged (Hiryu)....and he complained that the bombs that hit Shokaku and Taiho bounced off the armored flight decks.

I thought about quitting the game then, but he's a good friend and perhaps just made a quick decision - I had just gotten the better of him in a big exchange, shooting down about 1200 allied aircraft in the preceeding 4 days (plus sinking CV Hornet and crippling Lexington and Yorktown).....I'm guessing the naval attack order came in a fit of anger. If this becomes a pattern (i.e. any more) then we'll have another chat and see if this goes any further.

I mean, its PDU on....he's got every danged 2 engine squadron he wants upgraded to B17s, B24s, and now B29s.....he's wiped a few of my airfields off the map with ~500 to ~1000 plane raids.....I don't think he needs to resort to B29s on naval attack, I think that's obscene.


< Message edited by The Duke -- 10/8/2006 6:27:49 AM >

(in reply to ctangus)
Post #: 24
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 6:13:11 AM   
The Duke

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Just thought I'd share that in my PBEM, 2 or 3 of my fleet carriers were wrecked by B-29s flying out of Darwin, hitting my TF on the north side of Mindanao, Phillipines. 26 Hexes, baby.

1,560 miles each way. Strategic bomber. Gotta love it.


This highlights another weakness in WitP's tactical routines. It applies to ALL long range tactical aircraft but I'll use Duke's example.

Consider that for a B-29 unit to attack ships at 1560 miles, they would need a minimum of 12 hours to prepare and fly to the target. Figure 2 hours for the sighting report to work its way through the system and get to where someone can make a decision. Then another 3 hours to load the aircraft and brief the crews, take off and form up. Then 7 hours of flight time to the target. During that time the warships (assuming a cruise speed of 20 knots) could move up to 240 miles from the initial point of detection. The yields a theorectical search area of something over 180,000 square miles.

It would take several hours to search that area. Totally unrealistic to expect them to do that free from interception.

BTW, I agree with 1275PSI. Anyone who uses B-29s in a naval attack role won't be included in my list of people to play.

Chez


This same "problem" applies to some degree to any anti-shipping strike. I seem to recall that the program is supposed to take this into account (and it may not be doing so enough in most people's opinions), but even so long range strikes like that are going to sometimes work.

(BTW, was the B-29 equipped or equippable with some form of search radar?)

Oh, and if this is so unacceptable for B-29s to do why is it okay for Betties/Nells?


Bettys and Nells were naval attack aircraft....both were used extensively in this role through the war. The Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk on 12/10/41 by Nells launching aerial torpedos.

There is absolutely no precedence for B29s to attack task forces. Outside of industrial targets, and eventually just aimlessly firebombing cities, I'm not sure how else they were used.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 25
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 6:33:22 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke
Bettys and Nells were naval attack aircraft....both were used extensively in this role through the war. The Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk on 12/10/41 by Nells launching aerial torpedos. True..., about 540 miles from their Indo-China Bases. In the game they are doing it at up to 1,000 miles, which was the point being made in the post.

There is absolutely no precedence for B29s to attack task forces. Outside of industrial targets, and eventually just aimlessly firebombing cities, I'm not sure how else they were used. To sink a lot of Japanese shipping and close most of Japan's ports with areal minelaying


(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 26
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 6:34:54 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Well, that doesn't answer the question of "If B-29s can't find ships at that range, why can Betties/Nells?".  I also have some issue with the argument that just because some USAAF generals were too bull-headed to allow them to be be used for anything but attacking industry and fire-bombing the player can't either.  They were physically capable of it (and given how many bombs they carried carpet-bombing sections of ocean was certainly an option) as well as bombing airfields and ports.  I seem to remember something about the USN requesting B-29 strikes against known and suspected kamikaze supporting airbases.  Apollo11 did some significant testing a long time ago and found that even against ships disbanded in port, the US 4-engine bombers were hitting with only about 1% to 2% of the bombs they dropped.  IIRC someone recently posted a cite showing that IRL it was around 3%.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to The Duke)
Post #: 27
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 7:13:37 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

Oh, and if this is so unacceptable for B-29s to do why is it okay for Betties/Nells?


It's not but obviously you missed the part of my post where I specifically said that it applies to ALL long range tactical aircraft but that I would use Duke's example for illustration purposes.

The B-29's radar was was used for radar bombing, not for surface search. It had a very limited range.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 28
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 8:02:28 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Oh, and if this is so unacceptable for B-29s to do why is it okay for Betties/Nells?


It's not but obviously you missed the part of my post where I specifically said that it applies to ALL long range tactical aircraft but that I would use Duke's example for illustration purposes.

The B-29's radar was was used for radar bombing, not for surface search. It had a very limited range.

Chez


Well, my argument wasn't meant to specifically flame you Chez. My apologies if it seems like it was.

And thanks for the info on the B-29 radar.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 29
RE: B-29 Attack on Carriers from 26 Hexes - 10/8/2006 11:10:15 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke
Bettys and Nells were naval attack aircraft....both were used extensively in this role through the war. The Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk on 12/10/41 by Nells launching aerial torpedos. True..., about 540 miles from their Indo-China Bases. In the game they are doing it at up to 1,000 miles, which was the point being made in the post.

There is absolutely no precedence for B29s to attack task forces. Outside of industrial targets, and eventually just aimlessly firebombing cities, I'm not sure how else they were used. To sink a lot of Japanese shipping and close most of Japan's ports with areal minelaying




As far as I am aware I've ever had a Betty or Nell find and attack a TF outside of 8 to 9 hexes (480-540 miles) in any game I have yet played. And I agree with Chez, sending aircraft over 1,000 miles to attack a spotted target should be next to impossible to succeed.

The only possibility I could see of B-29s finding ships to bomb at 1,000+ miles out is in a case, as dtravel says, where planes are sent out with anti-shipping ordinance to a specific location and told to simply attack anything they find. And I just don't see sending any planes, let alone B-29s out over a thousand miles of ocean in hopes of finding a needle in a haystack somewhere. It would be much more profitable to send them to mine harbors or some other target with a relatively high probability of success. Otherwise it's almost sure to be a waste of gas and potential operational losses.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 30
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