Reconstitution

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Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 2:51:10 AM

RERomine

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Reconstitution is not one of my favorite aspects of the game. The effects might vary from scenario to scenario, but the one I'm playing is giving me fits. I'm playing 'US Civil War 2008' as the Union (Northern) forces. Things are mentally divided into four fronts: West Coast, Great Plains, Midwest and East Coast. In the West Coast and Great Plains fronts, I opted for basically a holding action. In the Midwest and East Coast Fronts, I've managed to push all the way to Savannah, Georgia, effectively isolating the largest CSA army against the Atlantic Ocean. I'm slowly destroying the isolated army on East Coast, while pushing westward in the Midwest. The problem is reconstituted units are throwing the balance of power in the Great Plains and West Coast. Since the isolated CSA army still consists of 50-60 units, I can't just shift my forces to address the opposite coast threat.

While it sounds like an AAR, I just wanted to create an image of the situation I'm facing. Has anyone else had similar inconveniences with reconstitution? I figure in the end, I will lose the West Coast because of the imbalance of power building, but should ultimately win having full control of the East Coast and Midwest. Reconstitution has just made the situation annoying. Short of capturing everything, I can't stop it from happening. Being out numbered 3:2 and not having any sort of air control, I'm happy with the way it's going overall. Any other scenarios where I will be greeted with such annoyances?

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 6:03:29 AM

Veers

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Reconstitution isn't an annoyance, it's a fact of life. Units rebuild and redeploy. You have to take this into account when you plan your strategy. Key centres fo reconstitution shoudl be high priorities for capture. If you've not planned to capture wherever they are reconstituting it is a shame, but certainly it is not a flaw with the scenario.

quote:

Any other scenarios where I will be greeted with such annoyances?

Most of the larger scenarios, like the one you are playing now, will likely have units reconstituting. This is just something you will have to learn to deal with.

Also, somethign to keep in mind when fighting is that if you have a unit isolated from supply when you destroy it, its equipment does not go back into the eq pool, and does not help units reconstitute. Keep in mind, however, that if you surround and destroy a unit in the space of one turn, it will evap as if in supply, and a good chunk of lost equipment will go to the eq pool. To avoid this, ensure that you leave the enemy units surrounded and out of supply for a whle turn so that the next turn, when you destroy them, they are out of supply and no eq will go to the eq pool. Obviously this is easier said than done, but a good thing to keep in mind.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 5:48:57 PM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers

Reconstitution isn't an annoyance, it's a fact of life. Units rebuild and redeploy. You have to take this into account when you plan your strategy. Key centres fo reconstitution shoudl be high priorities for capture. If you've not planned to capture wherever they are reconstituting it is a shame, but certainly it is not a flaw with the scenario.

Unfortunately, there aren't any centers of reconstitution. It's defaulting to the rule in the manual "Reconstituted units will
appear �Untried� in an Urban location distant from enemy units." This is putting the reconstituted units in the areas I have ongoing holding actions. In those areas, my outnumbered defenders are eventually going to be overwhelmed. At no point did I consider it to be a flaw, just an annoyance.

It is nice to know the isolated units won't reconstitute. The scenario has mobile supply points that have been my primary targets, especially since I was outnumbered to begin with. In this case, I figured a numerically superior yet under supplied enemy could be beaten. With 71 of 96 turns complete, I have an overwhelming victory in the works. I don't see a collapse any place to be concerned about.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 6:49:11 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine
It is nice to know the isolated units won't reconstitute.

Correction, as in real life (51st Highland division, several of the divisions lost at Stalingrad) units which are cut off out of supply can be rebuilt. However units which are out of supply will not send any equipment to replacements.

If you are concerned that enemy units are reconstituting too readily, then crank up the attrition overall rather than just to individual units. Without the equipment, the units can't rebuild. As it is, you will probably find that not everything reconstitutes, and that those which do will be short of certain types of equipment.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 7:39:19 PM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine
It is nice to know the isolated units won't reconstitute.

Correction, as in real life (51st Highland division, several of the divisions lost at Stalingrad) units which are cut off out of supply can be rebuilt. However units which are out of supply will not send any equipment to replacements.

If you are concerned that enemy units are reconstituting too readily, then crank up the attrition overall rather than just to individual units. Without the equipment, the units can't rebuild. As it is, you will probably find that not everything reconstitutes, and that those which do will be short of certain types of equipment.

As stated, it's more of an annoyance than anything. The 'US Civil War 2008' uses a very wide open map for the number of units available. It is not possible to maintain a solid front from one side of the map to the other. Further complicating things were large numbers of guerrilla units that start in 'my' territory. Playing the North and being outnumbered, I've had to execute holding actions with limited units in some locations to allow me regional superiority (or at least parity) in others for offensive purposes.

One thing I did see that may be a bug is I've seen Mech Infantry units suddenly appear in areas behind my lines in areas impossible to reach via ground movement. Since I don't know exactly how they got there, I can't be sure. Can Mech Infantry units be air lifted in? In the same game, I know I can't get my own Mech Infantry on ships, so I discounted that possibility. I haven't tried air lifting them, however. As stated earlier, I have nothing close to parity in the air, so I don't try. I restrict movement of my own choppers to about five hexes per turn to keep them from being popped. This has occurred several times in the game, in the same area, coincidently where the enemy units are reconstituting. My concern is they my be reconstituting within my borders, which would be a bug. But, I don't know that they weren't air lifted in. I'm only certain they didn't move there on the ground.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 7:46:45 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

One thing I did see that may be a bug is I've seen Mech Infantry units suddenly appear in areas behind my lines in areas impossible to reach via ground movement.

This can happen. Reconstitution actually just picks random urban hexes, so if there are urban hexes in your rear areas under enemy control, reconstitution can happen there. My advice is to garrison urban hexes which might be converted to enemy control. Doesn't have to be much. You can use a broken down AA battalion or something.

For the future, I suppose reconstitution should only be possible in supplied locations- though because of the way supply works in TOAW, without a solid line these hexes might be in supply anyway.

quote:

Can Mech Infantry units be air lifted in? In the same game, I know I can't get my own Mech Infantry on ships, so I discounted that possibility.

Only particular icons (not mechanised infantry) can be airlifted. The sealift depends on how much capacity you have. The units are probably particularly heavy. You could try breaking them up.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 8:10:23 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

For the future, I suppose reconstitution should only be possible in supplied locations- though because of the way supply works in TOAW, without a solid line these hexes might be in supply anyway.

Personally...

I would perfer multiple rather than just 1 reentry point. Then the unit could reconsitute at the closet point in which it was destroyed.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 8:31:31 PM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

One thing I did see that may be a bug is I've seen Mech Infantry units suddenly appear in areas behind my lines in areas impossible to reach via ground movement.

This can happen. Reconstitution actually just picks random urban hexes, so if there are urban hexes in your rear areas under enemy control, reconstitution can happen there. My advice is to garrison urban hexes which might be converted to enemy control. Doesn't have to be much. You can use a broken down AA battalion or something.

No enemy controlled urban areas within my perimeter of defense. They may have shipped in, assuming the enemy has that capacity. I'll have to check that. It might just be one I missed, as well. Not likely, but possible. If I had seen how it got there, I would be better able to provide more information. The computer controlled moves fly, however. A nice VCR capacity would be nice here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

Can Mech Infantry units be air lifted in? In the same game, I know I can't get my own Mech Infantry on ships, so I discounted that possibility.

Only particular icons (not mechanised infantry) can be airlifted. The sealift depends on how much capacity you have. The units are probably particularly heavy. You could try breaking them up.

Haven't tried breaking the unit down, but not an option at the moment. The unit in question ran through the enemy lines and caused some grief in the rear areas. Once it reached the coast, it pretty much got stranded there. A group of irritated enemy units arrived and rendered the issue moot.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 8:40:11 PM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

For the future, I suppose reconstitution should only be possible in supplied locations- though because of the way supply works in TOAW, without a solid line these hexes might be in supply anyway.

Personally...

I would perfer multiple rather than just 1 reentry point. Then the unit could reconsitute at the closet point in which it was destroyed.

Ray (alias Lava)

I don't mind multiple re-entry points. Just don't like units reconstituting 3000 miles from where they died, at the perfect location to through the balance of power out of kilter. They can die and reconstitute faster than I can ship units to balance things out.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 9:06:16 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

I would perfer multiple rather than just 1 reentry point. Then the unit could reconsitute at the closet point in which it was destroyed.

You can set units to reconstitute at the location of their formation's first objective. In a lot of cases, this is best practice.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 9:10:37 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

No enemy controlled urban areas within my perimeter of defense.

If you're certain. I just figured with the guerrilla units this was a danger.

quote:

They may have shipped in, assuming the enemy has that capacity. I'll have to check that. It might just be one I missed, as well. Not likely, but possible. If I had seen how it got there, I would be better able to provide more information. The computer controlled moves fly, however. A nice VCR capacity would be nice here.

I doubt this is something you would have easily missed.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 9:27:21 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

I would perfer multiple rather than just 1 reentry point. Then the unit could reconsitute at the closet point in which it was destroyed.

You can set units to reconstitute at the location of their formation's first objective. In a lot of cases, this is best practice.

Isn't this the default when you don't use a reentry point?

If not, how do you do it?

I think possible the problem really rears its head when the area has been completely overrun and the AI uses some type of critera to place the unit.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 9:50:01 PM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

Isn't this the default when you don't use a reentry point?

If not, how do you do it?

I think possible the problem really rears its head when the area has been completely overrun and the AI uses some type of critera to place the unit.

Ray (alias Lava)

That sounds like it would apply in this case, because I've pretty much overrun the one section. The units I'm killing off now are isolated in a pocket about 12 hexes wide and 6 hexes deep, with the ocean to their back.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/18/2006 11:43:33 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

The units I'm killing off now are isolated in a pocket about 12 hexes wide and 6 hexes deep, with the ocean to their back.

Yikes!

They seem to have their proverbial "backs against the wall."

Well done.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 1:06:36 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

Isn't this the default when you don't use a reentry point?

No, the situation RERomine is describing, where units are coming back at random urban hexes is the default condition if no Re-entry hex is specified.

quote:

If not, how do you do it?

In the Replacements Priority screen, click under Reconstitution where it says "Yes" for each unit. This will change it to "Fixed" with a hex reference, which refers to the formation's first objective. Clicking again will change to "No" and a third time will cycle back to "Yes".

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 1:17:05 AM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
In the Replacements Priority screen, click under Reconstitution where it says "Yes" for each unit. This will change it to "Fixed" with a hex reference, which refers to the formation's first objective. Clicking again will change to "No" and a third time will cycle back to "Yes".

If that's the case, it sounds like just the manner in which the scenario was designed. While I don't like enemy units reconstituting hither and yon, I don't know that I would change it because it would alter the spirit of the scenario.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 2:36:34 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

If that's the case, it sounds like just the manner in which the scenario was designed. While I don't like enemy units reconstituting hither and yon, I don't know that I would change it because it would alter the spirit of the scenario.

Not every effect which occurs in a scenario is intended. Far from it. If you think you would find the scenario more enjoyable with certain changes then there's nothing to stop you making them for your own use, provided you take steps to avoid confusion if anyone else were ever to use your copy of the scenario.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 3:04:49 AM

*Lava*

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Thanks Dan!

Ray (alais "am always learning something" Lava)

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 3:13:37 AM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Not every effect which occurs in a scenario is intended. Far from it. If you think you would find the scenario more enjoyable with certain changes then there's nothing to stop you making them for your own use, provided you take steps to avoid confusion if anyone else were ever to use your copy of the scenario.

With the map as wide open as it is in this scenario, unless the PO gives a fixed reconstitution site appropriate protection, it would be easy to get to and capture. If I changed it to not reconstitute at all, it would would have long since been over. In general, I would prefer reconstituted units to resurrect near their tombstones, but I guess it isn't meant to be.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 11:55:53 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

With the map as wide open as it is in this scenario, unless the PO gives a fixed reconstitution site appropriate protection, it would be easy to get to and capture.

Well, since the fixed locations are always that of the first objective of the formation, each formation will defend its own.

Frankly, there is a more fundamental weakness of the PO. In large scenarios where players are capable of rapid redeployment, the PO just cannot cope if the human player chooses to focus their offensive effort in one part of the map, as you have done.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 4:57:23 PM

RERomine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Frankly, there is a more fundamental weakness of the PO. In large scenarios where players are capable of rapid redeployment, the PO just cannot cope if the human player chooses to focus their offensive effort in one part of the map, as you have done.

Quite true. Any PO will only do what it is programmed to do. They aren't capable of dynamic thinking. This is why most difficulty levels effect either the quantiy of units the PO gets or biases the combat calculations. I get the impression this game is somewhat different in that respect. It appears the intelligence level the PO utilizes is altered, allowing it more detailed information when it does it's number crunching. Combat calculations may still be biased.

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RE: Reconstitution - 9/19/2006 5:39:49 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Quite true. Any PO will only do what it is programmed to do. They aren't capable of dynamic thinking.

More to the point, TOAW's PO can't think strategically at all- only on the level of individual formations. I think it would be feasible to design a system whereby the PO can manually rewrite its own objectives, but it would require a complete rewrite.

quote:

This is why most difficulty levels effect either the quantiy of units the PO gets or biases the combat calculations. I get the impression this game is somewhat different in that respect. It appears the intelligence level the PO utilizes is altered, allowing it more detailed information when it does it's number crunching. Combat calculations may still be biased.

"Weak" "Normal" and "Strong" PO are differentiated only by the behaviour of the PO. However the computer does get a combat bias, and you can add to or remove from this using the handicap function in the advanced game options.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 9/19/2006 5:40:37 PM >

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/1/2006 9:49:07 PM

Silvanski

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Quickie about reconstitution...

If a fixed reconstitution point comes under enemy control, where do the friendly units of that formation reconstitute... if at all?

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/1/2006 10:34:01 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Quickie about reconstitution...

If a fixed reconstitution point comes under enemy control, where do the friendly units of that formation reconstitute... if at all?

It depends on whether the fixed point is a map-edge, or interior, hex on the map. If interior, the units will be queued up to appear on the hex, if they were already on the reinforcement track, when the hex came under enemy control.

If a map-edge hex, they will appear on a nearby unoccupied map-edge hex, whether it is enemy controlled, or not.

Guerrilla units also will appear within a radius of the fixed reconstitution point, if the hex is enemy occupied.

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/1/2006 10:40:33 PM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
If interior, the units will be queued up to appear on the hex, if they were already on the reinforcement track, when the hex came under enemy control.

OK, in other words, hex overrun means no unit reconstitution of those queued up units until the hex is liberated?

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/2/2006 8:12:37 AM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
If interior, the units will be queued up to appear on the hex, if they were already on the reinforcement track, when the hex came under enemy control.

OK, in other words, hex overrun means no unit reconstitution of those queued up units until the hex is liberated?

Correct.

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/2/2006 8:58:40 AM

Silvanski

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That's all I needed to know, thanks

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/2/2006 12:50:12 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

This can happen. Reconstitution actually just picks random urban hexes,

..that explains in part the scattered reappearances in Rommel in NA, there does seem to be preferences tho, or, certain urban are just being more lucky than others

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RE: Reconstitution - 10/14/2006 8:25:01 AM

XPav

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Last time I played that scenario PBEM for about 15 turns, I got annoyed.

I was the south, my opponent was the north. I killed many of his units, they instantly reconstituted. I'd lose a good unit, and it wouldn't come back. Looking at the scenario, a good portion of the Southern units were set to NOT reconstitute. 4:1 loss rate, and I was losing, despite have tanks in the stockpile, because the units wouldn't come back, so I couldn't hold my lines.

GAH.

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