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Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale

 
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Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 4:55:59 AM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		At what fatigue level do you stand down your pilots?

At what lowering morale level do you stand down your pilots?

I am just curious how we differ from player to player.
Post #: 1
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 5:15:02 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Honestly I don't track pilot fatigue. I find morale gives out first.

I tend to stand down my pilots if morale goes below 62 or so. Below 50 I almost always stand them down.

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RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 5:32:14 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		I play Japan. My pilots don't live long enough to get demoralized of fatigued.

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Post #: 3
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 5:35:58 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Mostly what niceguy2005 said. If things are dire, I leave fighter pilots in no matter what. Bombers I like to rest if morale hits 80.

I notice that big bombers on long missions take fatigue fast - 15 to 20 in one day. If I can keep fatigue to 10% it's fine. I rest 'em at 15 - unless I really need them, then I send them for a second day (and they usually hit 30 then).

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 4
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 7:44:59 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Honestly I don't track pilot fatigue. I find morale gives out first.

I tend to stand down my pilots if morale goes below 62 or so. Below 50 I almost always stand them down.


Concur .. stand down if below moral 50 ... even though HQ bonus will make 'em fly ... they won't hit S$%^ ... so stand down would be indicated !



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Post #: 5
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 7:57:05 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Don't you find that flying high fatigue units greatly increases your operational losses? It could just be my imagination, but that seems to be my experience.

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Post #: 6
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 8:03:19 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
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From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Don't you find that flying high fatigue units greatly increases your operational losses? It could just be my imagination, but that seems to be my experience.


Except for a few early war cases ... losses don't matter much .. you replace 'em and soldier (or airman) on ... as Japanese ... I (almost) always have planes in the pool ... and pilots are a matter of training ... for which we institute rotations ... but having high fatigue and also having high moral is not normal. Usually fatigue (for air units) can be recovered faster than morale ... hence morale being percieved as primary bottleneck...


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Post #: 7
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 3:06:41 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		The corollary to all of this is that IF you are going to launch an air raid against a high-value moving target (such as a CV TF) with level bombers then, since you are only going to get at most 2 or 3 shots at them due to morale issues ( with lowering returns from each of these attacks due to lower morale on each consecutive attack) one can argue that you would actually be better to opt for a single shot and put all your bombers on 2,000 or 1,000 feet level attacks. Sure your losses to AAA will be high ( but not much higher than 2 or 3 separate attacks at 6,000 feet plus) but your single attack will be very effective. Follow-on attacks can then just concentrate on killing the cripples left from the first attack (if the main TF runs away) or, in resting for a day or two and then repeating the performance ( if the main TF tries to protect the cripples as they flee).

As the Japanese in 1943,44 and onwards you often won't have the escort to mount multiple well-escorted attacks over several days and it is therefore highly desirable to get the most from any attack you can mount.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 8
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 4:12:51 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Can someone please explain this concept of morale and fatigue for those of us who just can't understand it? The majority of posters seem consistantly to view or refer to morale and fatigue in the context of the pilot (at least from the gist of most posts), yet when one justifiably questions the decision to use pilot fatigue and morale to determine whether missions are flown, the answer is always something like morale and fatigue are not just pilot specific but are a representation of overall readiness.

Question 1. If fatigue and morale are supposed to model readiness, why do we have damaged aircraft?

Question 2. If fatigue and morale is referring to pilots, why would/does CAP make a difference?

Thing is none of this makes much sense when one has say 4 fully supported attack squadrons at a base with fighters and only say 10% of the squadrons planes are damaged, yet, because of the mysterious way this morale/fatigue model has been implemented explained, I routinely see only partial squadron launches (where some of a squadrons planes launch while other undamaged planes don't) or most annoying of all, a single squadron launches while the remainder just sit there. I see no rhyme or reason to this.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 10/14/2006 4:16:34 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 7:45:47 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		I am confused about this also. If a commander says fly, the pilots should follow orders and fly regardless of fatigue or morale. Its their performance that should be affected by morale and fatigue. Launching aircraft are affected by other things like weather, condition of the runway,supply etc.

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Post #: 10
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/14/2006 8:42:49 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		obvious if the situation is dire...all planes are set to attack/defend...whatever

but if i was doing regular bombing runs against a certain target i like to have my morale above 60....and my fatigue below 20.....i hate having op losses

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 11
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/15/2006 8:04:33 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline 		The morale and fatigue models go back to Gary's Battle of Britain Game.
Basically, morale will affect how many planes will take off on a mission, and also  how fast they will abandon a mission if resistance is encounted.
Fatigue will contribute to operational losses and also degrade the pilot's skill during combat. Normally, I do not like to fly my fighter units if their fatigue at the start of a mission is 15 or higher. It adds greatly to their losses. Instead, I will keep two units at the base, flying them on alternating days on escort or sweep missions. That keeps my pilots fresh and losses low.  On long range missions, the nenmy cap is normally fresher (in the 5-14 fatigue range). The longer the distance flown, the greater the fatigue.  Flying a long way plus fighting while fatigued is just asking to lose your good pilots.

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 12
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/16/2006 8:34:57 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Also the number of damaged planes and repair rate are dependent on aviation support, the number of planes that need to be repaired at the base. I also think that size of base and available supply should also influence that as well. When the game models the number of aircraft that fly I think they are trying to use it for the number of aircraft that arrive at the target in some coordination.

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 13
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/16/2006 4:23:51 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I am confused about this also. If a commander says fly, the pilots should follow orders and fly regardless of fatigue or morale. Its their performance that should be affected by morale and fatigue. Launching aircraft are affected by other things like weather, condition of the runway,supply etc.


I don't usually think of the situation here as some sort of pilot mutiny, but rather a matter of the difference between what High Command (the player) wants and what the troops are able to give. A squadron commander, probably realistically, has some say in whether or not the squadron is mission-capable or not, and I think this what is represented by the morale/fatigue check. Of course there are 2 problems with the WitP way of doing things:

1. IRL, I would think the person ordering the strikes would know whether or not the squadron was mission-capable before he assigned them a bombing target. He wouldn't find out about it after they didn't fly the mission he asked them to. Of course, you could argue that the "High Command" wouldn't know instantly and on a daily basis the status of every squadron across an area as large as the Pacific, but that opens the whole "who exactly does the player represent" question, which is something else entirely.

2. The second problem is units like carrier squadrons or squadrons operating at a remote island base who will be annihilated if they don't fly. It doesn't make much sense for the fighters or bombers on a carrier to be declared "not-mission-capable" in a carrier duel.

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(in reply to Drex)
Post #: 14
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/20/2006 8:26:53 AM   
afspret


Posts: 851
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Hanahan, SC
Status: offline 		If my heavy & medium bombers are flying strategic missions, I usually stand them down when they hit 50% morale and 20% fatigue. For my fighter, fighter-bombers and light bombers flying tactical missions I try to follow the same guidelines, but if they're flying close air in support of LCUs attacking or defending a hex, I fly them until I either win or lose the hex. Since I'm now in the first week of July '43 and have more air assests (and have the AI on the ropes), I plan to stand down units more often.

Of course early on during the opening phases I pretty much flew all my air units non-stop and only stood them down if they ran out of serviceable a/c or I pulled them back.

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 15
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/20/2006 8:12:43 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		I am not sure the concept of morale really applied in WW2 air war. Yes some raids turned back and some didn't, but it was often a tactical decision (like bombers having no more escort turning back before being slaugthered).

On the other hand, fatigue for me should apply to pilots and AC. So a disabled aircraft can't fly, while other aircraft are shown able but the fatigue of the unit will show that they had not enough time to prepare them for another mission (fuel, ammo, etc...). Like many things in WITP, it works well in some cases (when an unit hdad roughly as much AC as pilots) and not in another (when you have more pilots than AC).

By the way, fatigue in WITP works (probably) this way:
_ a raid will add to the fatigue of each crew 2 pts for each range hex.
_ a tranfer flight will add 1 point per hex done.
_ the fatigue of an unit will be halved each rest day (for units having more than 10).

I don't know how excatly fatigue affects pilots in WITP, but in BoB/BTR the rule was simple, for every fatigue point the experience of the pilot was decreased by one when a check was done.

(in reply to afspret)
Post #: 16
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/20/2006 9:24:14 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I am confused about this also. If a commander says fly, the pilots should follow orders and fly regardless of fatigue or morale. Its their performance that should be affected by morale and fatigue. Launching aircraft are affected by other things like weather, condition of the runway,supply etc.


To me there are two things the relationship between morale and whether or not a plane flies represent two things in WitP.

First, IRL when pilots were sent on missions that they felt were A, not critical and B very dangerous, they routinely encountered "mechanical problems" forcing their return to base. Pilots deciding not to complete a mission was not unheard of at all and the AAC had a big problem with pilots flying against Rabaul.

Second, it puts some realism into the game. IRL commanders were a great deal more cautious with the lives of their men than are WitP players. Sure, there were critical missions that had to be flown, but generally commanders didn't throw their pilots into the meat grinder day after day. Having a moral check forces a commander to really consider what he is asking of his pilots.

I don't know if I have ever seen carrier pilots fall victim to morale/not flying problems. If they did though this might be representative of pilots "getting seperated" or "not finding their target" which were excuses. It's one thing to take off from your carrier and another to point your plane head on into a swarm of Zeros on CAP.

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Post #: 17
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/20/2006 11:23:57 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		I personally think if you order a unit to attack a target they should all launch (except for like 5% which may develope some mechanical / pilot problem before mission time)... Now they may be flying against a slow moving AK and everyone of them miss due to fatigue / moral, but I want to see them all make the attempt - and I think everyone here would be happier with the same.

If fatigue / morale is within certain ranges then all aircraft should launch - now finding the target, making an attack and hitting the target are completely different and rely on a lot of things, including luck. But I would find very few things to complain about if everytime I told my Sonias to attack those pesky chinese they all took off... They may never do damage, but at least I feel like they are trying.

As for morale affecting planes turning back from a target I rarely ever see that except very early in the war and with the allied planes turning back when encountering a few japanese fighters - and most of the time its against naval targets - can't honestly say I every remember seeing an atatck against a ground target turn back.

Xargun

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Post #: 18
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/20/2006 11:26:05 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		Now to answer the actual questions asked... I try to keep my fatigue as low as possible and morale as high as possible at all times. The only times I push it is when my air groups are supporting an invasion or LR CAP over a valuable target.

Usually my fatigue is below 10 and morale above 80... if not I will stand the unit down and a day or two of R&R.

Xargun

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 19
RE: Informal Poll - Pilot Fatigue and Morale - 10/21/2006 12:10:19 AM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

obvious if the situation is dire...all planes are set to attack/defend...whatever

but if i was doing regular bombing runs against a certain target i like to have my morale above 60....and my fatigue below 20.....i hate having op losses

Those are my thresholds, too.

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Post #: 20
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