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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 10/10/2006 7:06:02 PM

Mziln

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quote:

Argentina on the other hand would not be a good supply source for Axis ships, because it would necessitate ARgentina's Capital to have a supply path to the Axis home Country of the ships.

Axis = German and Italian units co-operate if neither is neutral. Japan doesn't co-operate.

2.4.2 Tracing supply

A primary supply source for a unit is:

� any friendly city in the unit�s unconquered home country; or
� for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
� any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate).

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 211

RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 10/10/2006 7:33:31 PM

JagdFlanker

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germany didn't have to worry about south america so much because spain aquired supplies from south america and shipped them to germany via spain:

quote:

In a secret protocol to a 1939 German-Spanish agreement, Spain promised to serve as a conduit of supplies from South America. In May 1940, Spain signed a three-year agreement with Italy promising it vital supplies. Spanish flagged ships were used to smuggle goods from South America to the Nazis.

...In May 1943, due to the smuggling of materials into Spain for the Nazis, the US started a program to buy up the sources of these materials in South America.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html

starting just above page 2

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 212

RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 10/10/2006 8:45:45 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

quote:

Argentina on the other hand would not be a good supply source for Axis ships, because it would necessitate ARgentina's Capital to have a supply path to the Axis home Country of the ships.

Axis = German and Italian units co-operate if neither is neutral. Japan doesn't co-operate.

2.4.2 Tracing supply
A primary supply source for a unit is:
� any friendly city in the unit�s unconquered home country; or
� for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
� any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate).

So, Buenos Aires, the Capital of Argentina (Minor Country), is a Primary supply source For Argentinian units.
It is a secondaty supply source for German Units.
A Secondary supply source need to trace a supply path to a Primary supply source to be available as a supply source.
This is what I said.

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 213

RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 10/10/2006 8:53:34 PM

Froonp

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quote:

So what you seem to be saying, if I understand you correctly, is that Argentina will enter the war if and only if one of the Allied player-controlled countries makes a pointless and painfully obvious blunder.

Under pure WiF FE RAW, that's it.
There are systems under which this is not the same, PoliF, DoD III, AiF, but with WiF FE as it is made into MWiF, this is it.

quote:

Because I cannot imagine a game circumstance in which it would be necessary for an Allied country to declare war on a country in the Americas. Sure, the Americans could invade Cuba, but why?

I cannot too.

(in reply to MPHopcroft1)

Post #: 214

RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 10/10/2006 8:55:04 PM

Froonp

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quote:

quote:

Because I cannot imagine a game circumstance in which it would be necessary for an Allied country to declare war on a country in the Americas. Sure, the Americans could invade Cuba, but why?

I cannot too.

Well, I'd add that at least, this threat of Argentinian siding with the Axis, has the advantage of preventing the Allies from DoWing countries in the Americas for easy RP & OIL gaining.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/10/2006 8:56:56 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 215

RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 10/10/2006 10:31:58 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader
germany didn't have to worry about south america so much because spain aquired supplies from south america and shipped them to germany via spain:

quote:

In a secret protocol to a 1939 German-Spanish agreement, Spain promised to serve as a conduit of supplies from South America. In May 1940, Spain signed a three-year agreement with Italy promising it vital supplies. Spanish flagged ships were used to smuggle goods from South America to the Nazis.

...In May 1943, due to the smuggling of materials into Spain for the Nazis, the US started a program to buy up the sources of these materials in South America.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html
starting just above page 2

Spain in WiF FE has a trade agreement with Germany, and ships 1 RP from when France falls.
This trade agreement may be the representation of what you describe here.

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 216

RE: Panama - 10/10/2006 10:54:39 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Should Lake Maricaibo in Venz. be invadeable? If WiFFE had been made to this scale, I'm sure it would merit a special straits rule, like Gibraltar, London, Istanbul, or the Baltic.

Suggest either a new rule, or make it a geographically incorrect lake.

I would not want to make it a geographically incorrect lake, because it wold look to much incorrect.

First, I would like to point out that this is the same as in WiF FE, even at the Pacific scale, the hexes inside Maracaibo Lake, are invadable (there is an all-sea hexside).

Then I would like to point out that it seems to me that this is not very realistic to imagine an invasion fleet crawling the 40 km long / 7-18 km wide strait of Maracaibo. Well, it is not realistic if we imagine a Gibraltar like fortification, with mines, nets and guns, but it may not have been the case of this strait, during WWII. I do not know. also, as a matter of fact, I can say that this strait and "lake" seems perfectly navigable, and that I actually did so, while Playing Sid Meyer's Pirate, and going plundering the rich cities that are on the shores down there.

This said, I think it can be dealt in 3 ways in MWiF :

A- Let is as is.
Advantage : We are exactly like WiF FE (Invadable), AND nothing more is to be done.
Drawback : This is not very true to reality (to be verified).

B- Create a new rule restricting access to the shores of the hexes inside the lake, to the side who does not control the strait. I would love such a rule to exist, as it would be the more realistic. This rule could also applied to the Channel (England / France part of the North Sea) and restrict access to the shores that are west of Calais / Dover up to Brest to the side that do not control London (we play with such a house rule). It could also be applied to the Adriatic in a similar way.
Advantages : It is the most realistic.
Drawback : Steve is already saying NO

.

C- Have the hexes on the Maracaibo Lake shores be Not Adjacent to the Caribbean Sea. the Trick in MWiF is that, even if a land hex is physically adjacent to a sea hex, it is only adjacent to this sea area in game terms if you define this "adjacent" status in another CSV file. You say in this file "The hex at XX,YY coordinates is adjacent to Sea Area ##, and ## and ##". So, the "adjacent" status of the hexes on the shore of Maracaibo Lake could be removed from the "Adjacency" CSV file, and its done.
Advantage : This stay realistic in terms of Geography, and in terms on invadability of those hexes.
Drawback : I suspect that deleting the "Adjacent" status of land hexes that are physically adjacent to sea hexes, makes a dark blue line appear between the sea and land hex. This is ugly. But I suppose that the programming skills of Steve could overcome that ?

Opinions ?

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/10/2006 10:56:24 PM >

(in reply to sajbalk)

Post #: 217

RE: Panama - 10/10/2006 11:28:53 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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A.

B & C are interesting but not for MWIF product 1.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 218

RE: Panama - 10/10/2006 11:35:19 PM

sajbalk

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Well, I guess (a) will have to be the choice for now. The larger scale does create some changes where a rule may have been inserted in the paper game. But that is not the task here.

_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 219

RE: Panama - 10/11/2006 2:21:26 AM

Froonp

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Here is the Yucatan and the rest of Central America.

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Post #: 220

RE: Panama - 10/11/2006 2:25:50 AM

Froonp

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And here is the rest of the Gulf of Mexico.
What an Oil density !

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Post #: 221

RE: Panama - 10/11/2006 10:40:17 AM

Greyshaft

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is the Yucatan and the rest of Central America.

The 'B' of 'British Honduras (CW)' is slightly obscured. Same with the final 'A' of 'Nicaragua' and 'Costa Rica'

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

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Post #: 222

RE: Panama - 10/11/2006 5:37:09 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Here is the Yucatan and the rest of Central America.

The 'B' of 'British Honduras (CW)' is slightly obscured. Same with the final 'A' of 'Nicaragua' and 'Costa Rica'

Yes Greyshaft.
On these drafts, I not always rewrite the names that are still readable.
On the real map this is not the same thing, names are written on the top of the map, so this problem isn't one.
Thanks anyway

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 223

RE: Panama - 10/12/2006 1:23:21 AM

Froonp

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Here is Mexico, an important neighbour of the USA, who nearly always sides by them once the war is worldwide, and provide its precious Oil and PP to them, and also their mighty fighter bombers "Mixed" Air Force

that is sometimes the first real tactical bomber unit the USA get in the Pacific War.

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Post #: 224

RE: Panama - 10/12/2006 3:05:38 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I just read today that Mexican fishermen put iguanas on those islands off Baja California. The idea is the iguanas breed there and get big and fat. Then if a fisherman ever gets ship wrecked on one of the islands, meat is available.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 225

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:04:26 PM

Froonp

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Still reviewing the MwiF maps and drawing draft coatlines, here are some South American countries to comment.
If you see things blatantly wrong, plese tell me.
Note 1 : Red stars in the sea indicate that the original MWiF map had an land hex in this place, that I deleted.
Note 2 : These are only draft, and rivers are to be redrawn by the graphic artist. Those here are only placeholders.
Note 3 : Redrawn railways are sometimes drawn as black lines.

First is Colombia & Ecuador.

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< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/15/2006 1:06:40 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 226

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:07:45 PM

Froonp

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Here are the Galapagos (southern) owned by Ecuador. Malpelo is Colombian, and Coco is Costa Rican.

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< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/15/2006 1:24:17 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 227

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:08:53 PM

Froonp

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Here are Venezuela and all 3 Guyanas.

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Post #: 228

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:10:26 PM

Froonp

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Here is now Peru.

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Post #: 229

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:12:06 PM

Froonp

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And now Bolivia, that MWiF had wrong in many places, Cochabamba and Sucre, and the railways around.
I think (hope) it is better now.

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Post #: 230

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:14:22 PM

Froonp

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And finaly here is northern Brazil, with the immense Amazonian Forest.
It would be interesting, to see it now, to see how many Amazonian hexes are now Clear terrain

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Post #: 231

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 1:17:17 PM

Froonp

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About Brazil, WiF FE and MWiF had a city called Para in the mouths of the Amazon.
I searched, and found that in reality this city has always been called (at least since 200 years) Bel�m, and that Para is the name of the State of which it is th capital. So I renammed it.
Same for Bahia. The city is called Salvador (Salvador de Bahia also) and not Bahia. Bahia is the name of the state of which it is the capital. So I renammed it also.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 232

RE: Panama - 10/15/2006 5:05:52 PM

Earl Uhtred

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It's a minor point, but Merida in Yucatan isn't on the coast and thus isn't a port. The port of Merida is Progreso.

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Post #: 233

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 1:18:03 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Earl Uhtred
It's a minor point, but Merida in Yucatan isn't on the coast and thus isn't a port. The port of Merida is Progreso.

I wonder what to do.
Are Merida & Progreso of equal size, or is there one larger that the other ?
WiF FE has it that the port is named Merida, but this is a Pacific Scaled Area, so they took Merida even if it was not really coastal. Maybe it is larger ?

From wikipedia I get that Merida is the capital of Yucatan with 793k inhabitants, 11st Mexican city, 35 km from the coast.
From the same place, I get that Progreso has a 45k population, so while they are in the same hex, the name of Merida must stay.

It is this case with a good number of cities that are near the coast, but that are not coastal. There is Lima also for example, for which the port is Callao. The original WiF FE map has both names written in the same hex, Callao near the port, and Lima near the city. It may also be the case for Boden / Lulea in Sweden too.
But it seems this is never the case in MWiF.

Should 2 names appear for a hex, one for the port, one for the city, when there is a city near the shore, that is not a port, and another much smaller, that is the real port ?

(in reply to Earl Uhtred)

Post #: 234

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 7:33:25 AM

christo

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Last year I was travelling through Peru/ Equador as was amazed to see just how dry the western coast of south america was. It has not rained in many of the coastal hexes north of Lima for years. The sand dunes were bloody enormous and not even a hint of a plant. I would have though that the clear terrain from Payta to Lima should be desert.

Cheers

Christo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is now Peru.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 235

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 8:00:36 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: christo
Last year I was travelling through Peru/ Equador as was amazed to see just how dry the western coast of south america was. It has not rained in many of the coastal hexes north of Lima for years. The sand dunes were bloody enormous and not even a hint of a plant. I would have though that the clear terrain from Payta to Lima should be desert.

Do you believe that there is enough desertic terrain to fill the whole coastal hexes ?

(in reply to christo)

Post #: 236

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 8:06:59 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: christo
Last year I was travelling through Peru/ Equador as was amazed to see just how dry the western coast of south america was. It has not rained in many of the coastal hexes north of Lima for years. The sand dunes were bloody enormous and not even a hint of a plant. I would have though that the clear terrain from Payta to Lima should be desert.

Do you believe that there is enough desertic terrain to fill the whole coastal hexes ?

This map seems to support what you say.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 237

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 9:03:06 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Earl Uhtred
It's a minor point, but Merida in Yucatan isn't on the coast and thus isn't a port. The port of Merida is Progreso.

I wonder what to do.
Are Merida & Progreso of equal size, or is there one larger that the other ?
WiF FE has it that the port is named Merida, but this is a Pacific Scaled Area, so they took Merida even if it was not really coastal. Maybe it is larger ?

From wikipedia I get that Merida is the capital of Yucatan with 793k inhabitants, 11st Mexican city, 35 km from the coast.
From the same place, I get that Progreso has a 45k population, so while they are in the same hex, the name of Merida must stay.

It is this case with a good number of cities that are near the coast, but that are not coastal. There is Lima also for example, for which the port is Callao. The original WiF FE map has both names written in the same hex, Callao near the port, and Lima near the city. It may also be the case for Boden / Lulea in Sweden too.
But it seems this is never the case in MWiF.

Should 2 names appear for a hex, one for the port, one for the city, when there is a city near the shore, that is not a port, and another much smaller, that is the real port ?

I see no problem with dual names as we did for Boden/Lulea.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 238

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 9:05:15 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: christo
Last year I was travelling through Peru/ Equador as was amazed to see just how dry the western coast of south america was. It has not rained in many of the coastal hexes north of Lima for years. The sand dunes were bloody enormous and not even a hint of a plant. I would have though that the clear terrain from Payta to Lima should be desert.

Do you believe that there is enough desertic terrain to fill the whole coastal hexes ?

This map seems to support what you say.

From the railfall map, Christo seems to have the right idea.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 239

RE: Panama - 10/16/2006 9:11:31 AM

christo

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Do you believe that there is enough desertic terrain to fill the whole coastal hexes ?
[/quote]

If memory serves each hex is 60-100 km in depth. The terrain of the region is of streams/ rivers that come down from the Andes and these then supply the small towns that dot the coast. Each river supplies a ? 5 km band and then there is another 50 km to the next town. The road fairly hugs the coast but I think that the sand/ rocks continue up to the Andean foothills.
Bottom line....yes. It is desertic enough for the whole hex.

C

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 240