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RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions

 
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RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/9/2006 12:37:51 AM   
Jeff Gilbert

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Mziln,

Exactly! I'm glad you see it my way.
However, the decimal point is not really dropped when discussing naval guns instead, caliber has a different meaning as it is the the multiple value of the bore width to obtain barrel length.

Jeff



PS - good one about the silent decimal point.
Post PS - I'll stop now as I am sure everyone else is tired of reading this banter.

< Message edited by Jeff Gilbert -- 10/9/2006 12:50:54 AM >

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Palm Harbor, Florida, USA

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 61
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/9/2006 3:40:49 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Perhaps a couple of screen shots of Terje's work will enlist volunteers to do some of the naval units that so far have no writeups?




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 62
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/9/2006 3:42:34 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		And here's a short description of a naval engagement that the Japanese won.




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Post #: 63
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/12/2006 9:48:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here is a partial list of Japanese battleships.




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Post #: 64
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/13/2006 6:10:03 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

Post PS - I'll stop now as I am sure everyone else is tired of reading this banter.


I'm not. (hehe!) Jeff is correct here. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibre & http://www.hazegray.org/faq/smn6.htm#F14 (question f14 concerns us here)

Notice that "caliber", when used in the context of cannons, describes the overall barrel length, and not bore diameter.

So the US 5"/38 is a 5" diameter bore, with a barrel 5x38 inches long (190 inches = 15ft, 10 inches). (And NOT 5.38 inches in diamter.) :)

< Message edited by mlees -- 10/13/2006 6:12:36 PM >

(in reply to Jeff Gilbert)
Post #: 65
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/14/2006 3:35:30 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Try searching the web for 30.06 rifle sales. Would that be for a 30.06 inch rifle?

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 66
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/15/2006 8:20:46 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		Read my post carefully, Mziln. I said "cannon" (as in Naval Cannon 5 inches and larger). Not rifles.

Did you even check the links I provided? (I promise, they were not links to Porn.)

< Message edited by mlees -- 10/15/2006 8:34:54 PM >

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 67
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/16/2006 9:17:10 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		You must have missed the entry discussion with Jef and myself.

The discussion was about the use of the decimal point when describing gun calibers. We were discussing weather it is .50 caliber or 50 caliber. In which case I said I have seen it written both ways. The .50 or 50 (it is written both ways) caliber machine gun is not a rifle it is a gun. At this link the author uses both.


You are repeating Jeffs post 61. Which ended the discussion.

My post #66 is an attempt to show you that gun dealers choose to use calibers in a non uniform way.

Link to Outdoor Life article "Happy Birthday .30/06"

Lets see .30/06 would be a .3 x 6 that would be a gun with a .3 inch bore and a 1.8 inch barrel?


No its the "Thirty aught six" Springfield cartridge.

A .308 inch (7.62 mm) rifle cartridge, also known as the 7.62 x 63 mm, that was introduced as the standard cartridge of the United States Army in 1906 (hence, the "06").

Calibers are written in a non uniform way.

Naval guns are even more convaluted depending on the country and the year. Check Russia/USSR Designations. Which shows you and Jeff both jumped to unfounded conclusions.

End of discussion.



< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/16/2006 9:23:02 PM >

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 68
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/16/2006 10:54:14 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I'm sorry. There were two (or more points) discussed. I fixated on one of them, and ignored the others, when I saw the point made.

In post #49 You stated:

quote:

100 caliber = 1 inch or 25.4 mm

360 millimeters = 14.173228 inches
360 millimeters = 1417.3228 caliber


When I saw that, I assumed you were implying that the "caliber" of a 14 inch Naval Cannon is 1417. It is not.

(The site you linked in post #49 is a brainless conversion calculator. Caliber was defined in that code as 100 to 1 inch. But that is not the only way the word "caliber" is defined.)

I have never seen a 14 inch Naval gun refered to as a "1417 caliber" weapon. Ever.

There are many reference works that list Naval cannon (of the same bore size) by barrel size and weight.

Naval gun tables references:

http://www.geocities.com/kop_mic/

As I tried to point out, anytime the word "calibre" when used in the context of a (usually larger than 5 inch) naval gun, the "caliber" rating is the length of the barrel, as Jeff says in post #58.

I realise that small arms (like the "30 aught 6" you mention, caliber is a measurement of bore. I wasn't (and never have been) talking about small arms.

quote:

Which shows you and Jeff both jumped to unfounded conclusions.


*shrugs*

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 69
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 1:54:27 AM   
thrud

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 6/14/2005
Status: offline 		I would be willing to give writing up descriptions of some capitol ships...if I can get a list of them.  I have some books on capitol ships.

My email is ericposborne@msn.com

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 70
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 2:03:09 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thrud

I would be willing to give writing up descriptions of some capitol ships...if I can get a list of them.  I have some books on capitol ships.

My email is ericposborne@msn.com

Thank you for volunteering.

Terje has done all the writeups on naval units so far: USA, Japan, USSR, Germany, and some other smaller countries. I do not know which country he is currently working on, so you should coordinate with him to prevent duplication of effort. Terje has a complete list of the naval units and can provide you with literally hundreds of examples. Terje439@Hotmail.com

Greyshaft has been serving as foreman for unit description: writing style and the like. greyshaft@hotmail.com

You should do only a couple at first and let Greyshaft and Terje review those, before accumulating dozens that might need to be revised.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 71
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 5:52:40 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thrud

I would be willing to give writing up descriptions of some capitol ships...if I can get a list of them.  I have some books on capitol ships.

My email is ericposborne@msn.com


Terje, can you advise which navies are still needed?

Thanks


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Post #: 72
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 12:54:25 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: thrud

I would be willing to give writing up descriptions of some capitol ships...if I can get a list of them.  I have some books on capitol ships.

My email is ericposborne@msn.com


Terje, can you advise which navies are still needed?

Thanks



Well the minor Mediterrenean nations as well as Britain, France and Italy. I would suggest that anyone joining in should tell me which nations they want to do, and to start with a smaller nation. If it is one thing I would say I've done "wrong" this far, it was to start with the US, as the bigger naval nations makes your progress harder to spot. (gee did I hate USN carriers at the end....)

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 73
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 1:18:30 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		If they havent been done already I can volunteer to do the ENTIRE !! danish navy ...ok ok might not be as big as the USN ...but its twice the size of the Belgian or Polish navy !?

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 74
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 4:14:40 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

If they havent been done already I can volunteer to do the ENTIRE !! danish navy ...ok ok might not be as big as the USN ...but its twice the size of the Belgian or Polish navy !?

Fine by me... terje, have they been done yet?

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Post #: 75
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 7:58:29 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		nope they are still unfinished. I'll mail the different files etc to CBoehm then.

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Post #: 76
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 10:29:28 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		Well I am gonna bring this thread back to were it was supposed to be

As you all expected, it is time for me to show my incapabilities to search for ships on the web

Todays topic will be.....Germany.
My thoughts are that alot of these ships might be fictional ships, but please prove me wrong

CV Kleist
CV Yorck
CV Clausewitz
CV Barbarossa (in the wif ship list written with the German "double s")
CVL Elbe
CA von Mackensen
CA Derfflinger

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Post #: 77
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 11:06:29 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:


CA Derfflinger


hmmm found a ww1 Derfflinger


and a whole bunch of very nice pics here http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/germany/battleships/derfflinger/sms_derfflinger.htm incl. one of it being scuttled in Scapa Flow

but alas couldnt find anything about a ww2 Derfflinger ...

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 78
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 11:10:17 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm


quote:


CA Derfflinger


hmmm found a ww1 Derfflinger


and a whole bunch of very nice pics here http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/germany/battleships/derfflinger/sms_derfflinger.htm incl. one of it being scuttled in Scapa Flow

but alas couldnt find anything about a ww2 Derfflinger ...


Yea I found that one as well, but the one I am after is supposedly built in 1942 which to me looks like an indicator that this is either a fictional ship, or a project that was never completed.

Terje

(in reply to CBoehm)
Post #: 79
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 11:25:36 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		yeah several of the german ww2 ships carried the same names as ww1 ships ...like any other navy recycling names ...and I assume you are right about it being fictional, its my understanding that most navies dont assign names to ships until they are actually finished until which they usually just have a production number ...sooo if the planned to be ww2-Defflinger was never finished ...it would in fact never have existed *uhhh twilightzone-stuff*

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 80
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/18/2006 11:46:54 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		These are probably counters to represent parts of a massive German naval build up plan, which was discussed in the German navy 1938/39.

This "Z-plan" was formally adopted in spring 1939, as Hitler assured Raeder that he wouldn't be in need of the Navy until 1946.

German sources themself differ in the figures for the Z-Plan, a sign for the typical megalomaniac, polycratic Nazi-planning.

Note, that most Z-plan figures meant the complete navy around 1946, not only the additional ships. It consisted of the following ships:

6 H-class BB (ships H, J, K, L, M, N, with 40,6 cm main batteries)

4 BB (2 Bismarck, 2 Scharnhorst class)

+3 CV (1 Graf Zeppelin, ship B [Zeppelin class], 1 Seydlitz [Hipper Class cruiser conversion, 18 A/c]) Additionally, during WW2 Kriegsmarine had contemplated completing the French carriers Joffre and Painlevé and converting the passenger liners Europe Potsdam and Gneisenau.

7-8 CA (Hipper, Blücher, Prinz Eugen, Lützow [1940 sold to USSR], Seydlitz, plus the 3 pocket-battleships Deutschland/Lützow [renamed on Hitlers' orders, "because Germany can't go down"], Scheer, Graf Spee)

13-24 light cruisers (new M-class ships M, N, O, P, Q,R, 7,800 tons, 35,5 kts., 8x150mm, 2x4 TT), 22-36 scout cruisers (there within: SP1-3: 6,300 tons, , 36 kts., 6x150mm, 2x5TT), 68-70 DD, 78-90 Torpedo-boats, 229-249 U-boats.

So, the ship names, you listed, might be pre-planning fiction. Just laid down ships weren't christened. Derfflinger at least was the name of a German BC in Hippers squadron at Jutland.

Sources:
Conways' all the World's fighting ships 1922-1946, pp. 220-235.
Cajus Becker, Das Bildbuch der deutschen Kriegsmarine 1939-1945, pp. 42-50.

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 81
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 2:53:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Terje sent me the USSR and German naval writeups last week. I formatted the USSR ones today. Here are a couple of examples.




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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 82
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 2:54:51 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		2nd and last in the series.




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Post #: 83
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 4:37:58 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Commissioned the Sevastopol in November 1914, the Parizskaya Kommuna was a Gungut class battleship. She received her new name in 1921 from the Bolshevik government, and in 1929 she was transferred to the Black Sea Fleet where all the dreadnoughts had been lost during the revolution.

After all the dreadnoughts in the Black Sea Fleet were lost

– or –

After the dreaodnught in the Black Sea Fleet was lost

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/19/2006 4:47:26 PM >

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Post #: 84
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 6:33:11 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Commissioned the Sevastopol in November 1914, the Parizskaya Kommuna was a Gungut class battleship. She received her new name in 1921 from the Bolshevik government, and in 1929 she was transferred to the Black Sea Fleet where all the dreadnoughts had been lost during the revolution.

After all the dreadnoughts in the Black Sea Fleet were lost

– or –

After the dreaodnught in the Black Sea Fleet was lost


You are of course correct. The proper sentence would be the first one, as there were more than one dreadnought in that fleet.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 85
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 8:00:32 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Commissioned the Sevastopol in November 1914, the Parizskaya Kommuna was a Gungut class battleship. She received her new name in 1921 from the Bolshevik government, and in 1929 she was transferred to the Black Sea Fleet where all the dreadnoughts had been lost during the revolution.

After all the dreadnoughts in the Black Sea Fleet were lost

– or –

After the dreaodnught in the Black Sea Fleet was lost


I see nothing wrong with the original sentence. "had been lost" is the proper tense since the loss of the dreadnoughts had occurred years before. It could be modified to show a stronger causality link "since ... lost there during ...". But that assumes additional information as to the purpose of her relocation. As the sentence exists, the causality might not exist and the relationship just coincidence.


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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 86
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 8:45:31 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Commissioned the Sevastopol in November 1914, the Parizskaya Kommuna was a Gungut class battleship. She received her new name in 1921 from the Bolshevik government, and in 1929 she was transferred to the Black Sea Fleet where all the dreadnoughts had been lost during the revolution.

After all the dreadnoughts in the Black Sea Fleet were lost

– or –

After the dreaodnught in the Black Sea Fleet was lost


I see nothing wrong with the original sentence. "had been lost" is the proper tense since the loss of the dreadnoughts had occurred years before. It could be modified to show a stronger causality link "since ... lost there during ...". But that assumes additional information as to the purpose of her relocation. As the sentence exists, the causality might not exist and the relationship just coincidence.



the original sentence was "...after all the dreadnoughts in the Black Sea Fleet was lost during the revolution"
Since the "thing" that was lost is "all the dreadnoughts", it should be were not was. (unless my brain is fried atm, it was, they were)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 87
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/19/2006 10:26:23 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Oh. I'll change it to "had been lost" in the text file.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 88
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/20/2006 5:03:11 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Commissioned the Sevastopol in November 1914, the Parizskaya Kommuna was a Gungut class battleship. She received her new name in 1921 from the Bolshevik government, and in 1929 she was transferred to the Black Sea Fleet where all the dreadnoughts had been lost during the revolution.


This was my attempt at a simplification of the description

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 89
RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/20/2006 12:54:09 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

nope they are still unfinished. I'll mail the different files etc to CBoehm then.


ok I did the ENTIRE danish navy pfuuu *hard work* ...and its in the mail for Terje ...

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 90
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