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RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 3:40:07 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

You know ofcourse that SS-units are also banned in germany (in games)?

No, I did not. Do you have more details?

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Post #: 781
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 4:55:34 AM   
arc3371

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

You know ofcourse that SS-units are also banned in germany (in games)?

No, I did not. Do you have more details?


Under § 86a Basic Law, symbols of banned/forbidden parties and organizations may only be displayed for educational purposes. Which is why for instance games like Ardennes Offensive and Hearts of Iron doesn´t contain SS. How has Matrix handled this earler?

< Message edited by arc3371 -- 10/18/2006 5:05:44 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 782
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 5:02:24 AM   
christo

 

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From: adelaide, australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

You know ofcourse that SS-units are also banned in germany (in games)?

No, I did not. Do you have more details?


One person who has done a lot of work with WIFFE and indeed I believe has translated the rulebook into German is Ruediger Rinscheidt of the German Design Group. I have never met him and would not dream of speaking for him but he may be someone in the know.

Christo

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 783
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 5:23:03 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371
You know ofcourse that SS-units are also banned in germany (in games)?

No, I did not. Do you have more details?


Under § 86a Basic Law, symbols of banned/forbidden parties and organizations may only be displayed for educational purposes. Which is why for instance games like Ardennes Offensive and Hearts of Iron doesn´t contain SS. How has Matrix handled this earler?


Well, we aren't using any symbols. This is how we show the SS units.




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Post #: 784
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 6:48:59 AM   
arc3371

 

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Status: offline 		Well, it can´t hurt to send a email to the boys at GDG and ask.

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Post #: 785
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 7:42:51 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

Well, it can´t hurt to send a email to the boys at GDG and ask.

Who is GDG?

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Post #: 786
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 7:54:49 AM   
arc3371

 

Posts: 6
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Status: offline 		German design Group, publishers of WiF in Germany
http://www.gdg.de/

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Post #: 787
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 8:42:53 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

German design Group, publishers of WiF in Germany
http://www.gdg.de/

Thanks.

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Post #: 788
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:49:39 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

German design Group, publishers of WiF in Germany
http://www.gdg.de/

Thanks.

I think that what is forbidden is the rune-like SS symbol that can be found on SS uniforms, caps, heraldy.
Using the double "S" letter, I can't see why this would be forbidden.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 789
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 12:01:23 PM   
Norden_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371

German design Group, publishers of WiF in Germany
http://www.gdg.de/

Thanks.

I think that what is forbidden is the rune-like SS symbol that can be found on SS uniforms, caps, heraldy.
Using the double "S" letter, I can't see why this would be forbidden.



Thats how I recall it as well.

Norden

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Post #: 790
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 12:17:25 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: arc3371
German design Group, publishers of WiF in Germany
http://www.gdg.de/

Ruediger Rinscheidt is German Design Group.
Ruediger Rinscheidt is at : gdg.rex at cityweb dot de.

(in reply to arc3371)
Post #: 791
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 3:52:37 PM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		I remember I discussed this a lot with German wargamers and they linked me to the following WEB
site for the rules for wargames in Germany.

This is their WEB site:
http://www.ghs-kosim.de/

Click on the button GHS stellt klar and select English language to read their text. For SS units they write that the illegal
part is to use the SS rune symbols on the counters. So it's the rune that is illegal not the double S'es (SS). So it's not
illegal to call a unit i. e. 2 SS, but write 2 ** (where each * is the SS rune) IS illegal. This is exactly the same as Patrice
wrote.

This is the interesting text:
The German "Society for historical Simulations" (the GHS; Gesellschaft fuer historische Simulationen e.V.) has been established as a registered organization in the free democratic constitutional structure of the Federal Republic of Germany. According to its statutes, the GHS has committed explicitly to striving for peaceful co-existence between nations and to the idea of international understanding. Therefore, the GHS rejects the reproduction of symbols from unconstitutional organizations regardless of their shapes, labeled on simulation materials such as boxes, cards, counters, etc.

The GHS appeals to all producers of simulation games to avoid using particular symbols and badges within their products. Symbols of unconstitutional organizations neither improve a game’s simulation value, nor contribute to an increased historical authenticity. Although the GHS recognizes that such symbols are not intentionally used by game producers to be offensive, they should be avoided out of respect for the emotions and feelings of people around the world.

Furthermore, the use of such symbols is forbidden in Germany according to §86 of the StGB (Strafgesetzbuch). These rules make it illegal to trade in games with such symbols. We believe that further legislation will make owning games containing such symbols illegal. The following symbols are explicitly affected by this paragraph: The SS-Runen (SS Runes), SS Totenkopfsymbol (SS Skull), Odins Kreuz (Odin’s Cross), Wolfsraute (Wolfs` Rhomb), Runenraute (Runes’ Rhomb), Keltenkreuz (Celtic Cross), Reichskriegsflagge since 1933 (War Flag), and obviously any form of the Hakenkreuz (Swastika), as well as all variations and corresponding illustrations (this list makes no claim to be exhaustive!).

Society For Historical Simulations
The Managing Comittee

Consenting Opinions:

Germany is rapidly becoming one of the leading game markets in the world. In Germany, the swastika distorts the past in a manner that demeans her thousands of years of history. To allow all gamers full access to all our games, Australian Design Group no longer uses swastikas in her games.

"Harry Rowland (Australian Design Group)

Well we won't be using any such images in any games; we do understand the issue and do not feel the symbols are necessary for games."




< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 10/18/2006 3:58:58 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 792
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 6:00:32 PM   
arc3371

 

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Status: offline 		Good news then.

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Post #: 793
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 8:22:25 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Borger,

As always, thank you for your help.

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Post #: 794
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:28:10 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		wouldnt it be cool if there was room to insert a photo into the description ...would be nice for the ships, AC and HQs ...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 795
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:42:26 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

wouldnt it be cool if there was room to insert a photo into the description ...would be nice for the ships, AC and HQs ...

There are always copyright concerns.

At this point, I believe the game design supports enough 'glitz'. I want to focus on game play instead.

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Post #: 796
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:47:42 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Jesper Pehrson has started work on doing writeups for land units. Thank you Jesper!

He has done a half dozen and we are looking for some feedback as to what should be included. Here are 3 that he has done so far.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 797
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:48:36 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here's another.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 798
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:49:33 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		And a third. Last in series.




Attachment (1)

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 799
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/18/2006 11:53:37 PM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		Any advice, comments, suggestions or what not is welcome. Be brutally honest if you wish. I am trying to find a style that works. I also want to know what is interesting and what is not.

- Jesper

< Message edited by capitan -- 10/19/2006 12:36:04 AM >

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RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 12:36:15 AM   
wosung

 

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Status: offline 		It should be "Wehrkreis", not "Wehrkries".

For German units, I would like to have mentioned, when they were sadly involved in war crimes, because it's part of there "legacy". This legacy is virulent even today. There are still international law-cases abot this. Anglo-american history tends to view the russo-german war as just a "normal" war, which it wasn't.

For example: Involvement of units of the 6th Army in Babi Jar massakers in the Ukraine, or of 1st? mountain division in the execution of italian prisoners in 1943 on the greek islands.

But that's just my point of view.


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Post #: 801
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 12:41:49 AM   
jesperpehrson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

It should be "Wehrkreis", not "Wehrkries".

For German units, I would like to have mentioned, when they were sadly involved in war crimes, because it's part of there "legacy". This legacy is virulent even today. There are still international law-cases abot this. Anglo-american history tends to view the russo-german war as just a "normal" war, which it wasn't.

For example: Involvement of units of the 6th Army in Babi Jar massakers in the Ukraine, or of 1st? mountain division in the execution of italian prisoners in 1943 on the greek islands.

But that's just my point of view.




Good catch on the typo. I get blind after reading too much german (as I speak very little).

As for the warcrimes, IMHO, WIF avoids the whole subject and I would be surprised if Matrix Games takes another stance. But I am merely a grunt and I will wait for what Steve says.

It would interesting of course and not too difficult to find.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 802
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 12:44:38 AM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
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From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		corps XI ...."under the watchful eye OF Eugen Ott...." you are missing the word "of"

other than that I think you did a GREAT job, kept it crisp and interesting...cant wait to sit and read through all the various units when this game comes out ! ....

< Message edited by CBoehm -- 10/19/2006 1:01:29 AM >

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Post #: 803
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 12:56:41 AM   
Peter Stauffenberg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

Any advice, comments, suggestions or what not is welcome. Be brutally honest if you wish. I am trying to find a style that works. I also want to know what is interesting and what is not.

- Jesper


I think your work on descriptions for land units is excellent. It's very interesting to read for a devoted wargamer with interest in history. So keep up the great work.

I also agree with you that there is no need to write about war crimes etc. We are describing corps sized units and it would be quite difficult to say that the entire corps took part in war crimes. MWIF is a WAR game and should focus on each unit's contribution to the WAR in their descriptions. If we included war crimes then I guess every SS unit would be full of horrible war crime stories. I think that is just as bad as using Swastikas, SS runes etc. It shifts the focus to the Nazi war crimes and extinction of the Jews. I think everybody knows enough about this subject without having to be reminded of these horrors while playing wargames.


< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 10/19/2006 12:57:57 AM >

(in reply to jesperpehrson)
Post #: 804
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 1:24:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
It should be "Wehrkreis", not "Wehrkries".

For German units, I would like to have mentioned, when they were sadly involved in war crimes, because it's part of there "legacy". This legacy is virulent even today. There are still international law-cases abot this. Anglo-american history tends to view the russo-german war as just a "normal" war, which it wasn't.

For example: Involvement of units of the 6th Army in Babi Jar massakers in the Ukraine, or of 1st? mountain division in the execution of italian prisoners in 1943 on the greek islands.

But that's just my point of view.


Without dismissing, minimizing, or attempting to gloss over these atrocities, I agree with Borger that MWIF is not the place for discussing them.

A unit writeup is meant to be short and discuss the historical unit in terms comparable to how the player will use it in the game. Its creation, participation in battles, and eventual dissoution (should that happen) are similar to what the players do with units while playing the game.

In particular, I like that even in the first 6 units Jesper has done, there are instances of units being destroyed and then reformed, exactly as they are in WIF: out in the front lines, destroyed in combat, back to the force pool, into production, then returning to the front lines. A few additional sentences to add flavor and keep them from all reading the same is pretty much essential.

As a general guideline, I would like to avoid content about atrocities.

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RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 5:04:00 AM   
Greyshaft


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Status: offline 		I don't understand the use of the word 'enforced'
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

And a third. Last in series.






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/Greyshaft

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Post #: 806
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 6:05:10 AM   
c92nichj


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quote:

I also agree with you that there is no need to write about war crimes etc


I agree with Borger on this.
If we start writing about war crimes it is difficult to draw the line, apart from SS units, how about japaneese behaviour in China, NEI? The terror bombing of germany? The Russians behaviour in eastern Germany?

Even though all this is part of history and what did happen I do not think it is part of WiF as the game does not model any of this, maybe with the exception of the USE roll for japanese taking chineese cities.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 807
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 6:07:43 AM   
mlees


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quote:

I don't understand the use of the word 'enforced'


Hmm. From the context, it would appear to mean that the LI Corps was initially formed around a core of 5 infantry divisions....

But I too have not seen the word "enforced" used in this manner.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 808
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 7:18:50 AM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		As you may have guessed english is not my native language. When I wrote enforced it was with some doubt. I do like the implications of giving the corps power instead of just consisting of divisions. Suggestions on how you would like to see it changed?

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 809
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 10/19/2006 7:28:58 AM   
christo

 

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From: adelaide, australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

As you may have guessed english is not my native language. When I wrote enforced it was with some doubt. I do like the implications of giving the corps power instead of just consisting of divisions. Suggestions on how you would like to see it changed?


how about "... consisted of 5 infantry divisions"

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Post #: 810
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