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Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:28:41 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I decided each tutorial should have its own thread. You have seen most of these before, but the last 2 pages are new and the 8th both moved (it had been page 6) and received a lot of corrections.




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:30:13 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		All the graphics from these are a little old, taken a couple of weeks ago.




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:32:08 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I believe all the text is correct. There were many places where I made changes based on posts by the forum members.




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:33:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		4th page




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:34:25 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:35:42 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		6th page - this use to be page 7




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:36:53 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		7th page - this use to be page 8




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:38:19 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		8th page - this used to be page 6. Over half the text has been rewritten.




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:39:37 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		1 of the 2 new pages.




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RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 6:41:19 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		2nd new page. Last in the series. Last in this tutorial.




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Post #: 10
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 11:42:25 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		- General comment :
In French, we learn when writing, not to write digits when we want to say a small number, but to write it with letters. I don't know if you are learnt the same in English, but that is bizarre to me te read a text with digits inside. I don't mean there should be no digit, but when you say "distance between 2 hexes", I've been learned to write "distance between two hexes".

- About page 4 :
All Sea hexsides are not necessarily between 2 land hexes. Those that are between 2 land hexes preven movement, but there are all sea hexside between a land hex and a sea hex.

- About page 9 :
You say "in most cases, naval units either start of end movement in a port". You can remove "In most cases", as Naval units always either start of end movement in a port. Sometimes both, but they never move from sea to sea (unless playing with the Leaders in Flames kit, where 2 leaders allow for that feat to be accomplished, but MwiF does not uses LiF Leaders).

- About page 10 :
The last paragraph gave me the impression that naval units based in Honolulu could be able to intercept enemy units passing in the adjacent sea areas. This is impossible, intercepting naval units have to be at sea to intercept, so you should maybe reformulate it "That would give it the ability to fight enemy units with a suprise advantage".

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 11
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 12:49:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
- General comment :
In French, we learn when writing, not to write digits when we want to say a small number, but to write it with letters. I don't know if you are learnt the same in English, but that is bizarre to me te read a text with digits inside. I don't mean there should be no digit, but when you say "distance between 2 hexes", I've been learned to write "distance between two hexes".

- About page 4 :
All Sea hexsides are not necessarily between 2 land hexes. Those that are between 2 land hexes preven movement, but there are all sea hexside between a land hex and a sea hex.

- About page 9 :
You say "in most cases, naval units either start of end movement in a port". You can remove "In most cases", as Naval units always either start of end movement in a port. Sometimes both, but they never move from sea to sea (unless playing with the Leaders in Flames kit, where 2 leaders allow for that feat to be accomplished, but MwiF does not uses LiF Leaders).

- About page 10 :
The last paragraph gave me the impression that naval units based in Honolulu could be able to intercept enemy units passing in the adjacent sea areas. This is impossible, intercepting naval units have to be at sea to intercept, so you should maybe reformulate it "That would give it the ability to fight enemy units with a suprise advantage".


I am tight on space and use numbers instead of words to save room. Sometimes later edits create extra room but going back and revising everything when that happens is a lot of bother.

That all sea hexesides can be next to all sea hexes is indirectly covered in the mention about Dover having 4 all sea hexsides in a later page.

I believe some naval units can move to a lower numbered sea area section inlieu of returning to port - or has that rule been changed?

About Honolulu, the text is pretty clear that it is refering to the units once they are in "a high numbered section".

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 12
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 2:41:07 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

I believe some naval units can move to a lower numbered sea area section inlieu of returning to port - or has that rule been changed?

It has not changed.
You ae completely right. I forgot about that obvious Naval Move. Should have woke up before typing .

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 13
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 2:50:10 PM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		Steve is right about moving into a lover seazone. But I think a stronger explanation is needed. The fact that naval movement in 99.9% of all cases is to/from port is often lost on newbies, I've seen it several times. If a new player dosn't get this concept right, they'll really struggle with understanding the naval rules. Most new players have played games like Axis & allies or a number of oter games where continued movement at sea is possible.

I suggest you introduce the naval rules by spelling out clearly that ALL naval moves are to/from port. Mention in a paranthesis that there is a single exception that allows movement to a lower number box within the same seasone

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Post #: 14
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 8:49:41 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Incy,

I just wrote a long reply and then hit some key that wiped it out. So all you get here is the short version.

Complex rules are being introduced in pieces. I haven't even shown the reader what a naval unit looks like yet (tutorial #5- next). There is another whole tutorial that will be devoted to naval movement and combat - in the interactive tutorial group.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 15
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 9:23:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Steve is right about moving into a lover seazone. But I think a stronger explanation is needed. The fact that naval movement in 99.9% of all cases is to/from port is often lost on newbies, I've seen it several times. If a new player dosn't get this concept right, they'll really struggle with understanding the naval rules. Most new players have played games like Axis & allies or a number of oter games where continued movement at sea is possible.

I suggest you introduce the naval rules by spelling out clearly that ALL naval moves are to/from port. Mention in a paranthesis that there is a single exception that allows movement to a lower number box within the same seasone


Hey, I found the longer one.
================

Incy,

The game has a lot of complex rules, even for simple things like moving naval units. Because of this, I am introducing parts of the rules gradually. Covering something that only occurs .1% of time in the first mention of the rule is a good way to lose the reader 's the details.

My strategy (not tactics, but strategy) is to provide portions of rules, with overlap and redundancy, in installments. For example, I have mentioned invasions in some detail twice already. But I have yet to show the reader what a naval unit looks like.

For naval movement, I have touched on a few aspects, with references to interceptiona and surprise for instance. The next tutorial with actually display what naval units look like and I will cover more of this there.

However, I expect to have a completely separate tutorial on naval movement as part of the interactive tutorials. I am only laying the groundwork here, and hopefully whetting the reader's appetitie for more.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 16
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 9:58:45 PM   
trees trees

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: Manistee, MI
Status: offline 		looking at the big sea box section above makes me wonder what the interface for naval combat might look like...with great optimism. naval combat could be the area of WiF that the computer will most speed up and help simplify. like in a big IJN/USN CV fiesta, pointing and clicking on everything and letting the computer keep track of the current AA value and which SCS are face-up or face-down...can't wait.

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Post #: 17
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 10:06:09 PM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		Hm, I don't think you got my meaning 100%.

I completely agree with your approach in introducing the rules. But I think saying that *in most cases naval units either start or end movement in port* does more to confuse than to help. Use ALWAYS instead, the reader will learn a very important principle.

But since there is that 0.1% that don't apply you must mention there is a tiny-itsy exception (or else you confuse the semi-experienced and annoy the rule lawyers).


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Post #: 18
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 10:15:19 PM   
Greyshaft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Steve is right about moving into a lover seazone.


I didn't realise there was going to be an 'Adults Only' version of MWiF

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Post #: 19
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 11:13:27 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

Hm, I don't think you got my meaning 100%.

I completely agree with your approach in introducing the rules. But I think saying that *in most cases naval units either start or end movement in port* does more to confuse than to help. Use ALWAYS instead, the reader will learn a very important principle.

But since there is that 0.1% that don't apply you must mention there is a tiny-itsy exception (or else you confuse the semi-experienced and annoy the rule lawyers).



How about if I change it to "almost always"?

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Post #: 20
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/21/2006 11:58:14 PM   
Incy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
How about if I change it to "almost always"?


Something along that line would be better

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Post #: 21
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/22/2006 3:24:17 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		I know I've mentioned it before but I didn't get a reply so I will again. The "touching" textboxes looks clumsy and having no separation between them tends to link them when that isn't really what is intended. Separating the buttons from the RHS textbox really improved the look of these pages and I think we should do the same thing here.

I mention this stuff because I've studied human-computer interaction formally.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Incy)
Post #: 22
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/22/2006 4:12:08 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline 		In ya'lls opinion will it be possible to learn the entire game through the tutorials? They seem to be very informative but, as a newb are they all inclusive?

Mo Reb

BTW...I kind of like the numbers NOT spelled out but the digit instead. Helps me to look quickly and spot it out of the text. Just my opinion.


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Post #: 23
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/22/2006 7:37:13 PM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		In my opinion (I'm not writing the tutorials) the tutorials will teach you enough to get started, and to understand most of what's going on. The game engine will also help make sure you stay within the rules and remind you what to do when.

But for a complete understanding (and for specific details in special cases) you will probably need to read the full WiF rulebook.

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Post #: 24
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/22/2006 10:08:53 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

In my opinion (I'm not writing the tutorials) the tutorials will teach you enough to get started, and to understand most of what's going on. The game engine will also help make sure you stay within the rules and remind you what to do when.

But for a complete understanding (and for specific details in special cases) you will probably need to read the full WiF rulebook.

Yes.

...


But philosophically, does anyone really have a "complete understanding"? Besides the rules (of which there are many), how to play WIF well/knowledgeably is a constant learning experience - for everyone.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 25
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/23/2006 4:24:33 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
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From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

- About page 10 :
The last paragraph gave me the impression that naval units based in Honolulu could be able to intercept enemy units passing in the adjacent sea areas. This is impossible, intercepting naval units have to be at sea to intercept, so you should maybe reformulate it "That would give it the ability to fight enemy units with a suprise advantage".


Dont know if this is too much nitpicking ...but

The advantage of Honolulu being a tripple port is not only that its easier to reach a high box in those areas ...but not the least that:

- "surprise advantage" ...double & tripple ports in general effectively extends the range/movement of ships !!
- defensively it is much easier to keep in supply since it can draw supply from 3 different seaareas ...
- a navy based in Honolulu has a "backdoor" in case a superior fleet is trying force it to "come out and play" by positioning itself for a portstrike...

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 26
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/23/2006 7:36:37 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
quote:

- About page 10 :
The last paragraph gave me the impression that naval units based in Honolulu could be able to intercept enemy units passing in the adjacent sea areas. This is impossible, intercepting naval units have to be at sea to intercept, so you should maybe reformulate it "That would give it the ability to fight enemy units with a suprise advantage".


Dont know if this is too much nitpicking ...but

The advantage of Honolulu being a tripple port is not only that its easier to reach a high box in those areas ...but not the least that:

- "surprise advantage" ...double & tripple ports in general effectively extends the range/movement of ships !!
- defensively it is much easier to keep in supply since it can draw supply from 3 different seaareas ...
- a navy based in Honolulu has a "backdoor" in case a superior fleet is trying force it to "come out and play" by positioning itself for a portstrike...


I will try to work these ideas in elsewhere.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 27
RE: Tutorial #3 - 10/23/2006 9:09:34 PM   
Ballista


Posts: 183
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		As a personal aside, I used to live in that hex that is just south of Oran (sidi-bel-abbes). The hex to the left would have the city of Tlemcen, where I also spent some time. Neat stuff... :D


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Post #: 28
Riddle me this batman!! - 10/23/2006 11:06:10 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		I live in the city w. the minor port two hexes north of the southern border ...in page in page 4 of this tutorial - can you guess which city ?

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Post #: 29
RE: Riddle me this batman!! - 10/23/2006 11:18:39 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Aarhus, sure

(in reply to CBoehm)
Post #: 30
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