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advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 12:24:43 AM   
motown

 

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Joined: 10/25/2006
Status: offline 		hello
like a lot of people i would like to know if matrix games ever plan to acquire the rights of advanced squad leader
from avalon hill and make a fidel computer adaptation?

if not why and if yes when

thx
Post #: 1
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 12:39:01 AM   
Hertston


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Status: offline 		Paradox (of Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis fame) have the computer game rights - which left Avalon Hill a long time ago - and are currently developing a Squad Leader game which is awaited with, I'd think I'd be right in saying, a mixture of anticipation and dread!

I think we would all like to see a straight ASL port, but I can only see that happening if the Paradox version bombs and somebody like Matrix acquires what would then be seen as a 'dead' license to finally develop what wargamers really want.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 10/25/2006 12:50:04 AM >

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 12:58:30 AM   
ShermanM4


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quote:

Paradox (of Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis fame) have the computer game rights - which left Avalon Hill a long time ago - and are currently developing a Squad Leader game which is awaited with, I'd think I'd be right in saying, a mixture of anticipation and dread!

I think we would all like to see a straight ASL port, but I can only see that happening if the Paradox version bombs and somebody like Matrix acquires what would then be seen as a 'dead' license to finally develop what wargamers really want


Now, Now Hertston..........Don't lie we all know you enjoyed the Hasbro Interactive Version. Who knows if this one turns out to be much of the same, we can't really be sure Matrix will get it.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 1:18:40 AM   
Ocelotl

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/25/2006
Status: offline 		I used to play ASL...was a great game and I still have the rulebook but not any modules. In a sense there are some interpretations of ASL ie Close Combat Series and also Combat Mission. My favorite is Close Combat II. While not turn based it captures the sense and feel of WWII combat... much of what I experienced with ASL.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 3:21:51 AM   
ravinhood


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Status: offline 		ASL was NEVER EVER real time, so, Close Combat doesn't even come close to being ASL in any form IMHO of course  Steel Panthers comes the closest if you want to get technical.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 3:57:57 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
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From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		Want computer ASL try VASL, if your looking for AI try SP, CM or CC. But remember both CM and CC set out to port ASL to the PC early on and both came to the same conclusions .

Can’t be done

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 4:39:00 AM   
Fred98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Note to the marketing types:

If there were a PC version that was an exact port I would have no interest

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 5:09:03 AM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I'm working on computer version of Advanced Squad Leader Stater Kit (I call it for now XASL)...head to head play and at some point I want to implement SASL II - scale it down for ASLSK. I have American, German and Russian infantry all in at this point and including support weapons like machine guns, DC and FT. I'm currently doing some testing then I will move on to ordnance like bazooka/panzerschreck and mortars before I got guns and finally armor - by that time hopefully MMP will release Starter Kit #3.

Here are some screenshots for you ....just to show you I'm not full of it :)

I have been working on XASL project for about a year now. The purpose is basically to able to play ASLSK against computer, if I can using SASL rules. XASL has ASL rules in the game, so you would play it as say HPS squad battles or the Matrix campaign series. So far I got unofficial green light from Brian Youse MMP. I'm primarily focusing on Eastern Front and single player and head to head only...

The Picture that you see currently is from the first ASL Starter Kit - Scenario S1 Retaking Vierville. The second image shows S2 Scenario War of the Rats.




Attachment (2)

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 10/25/2006 5:24:17 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 5:16:10 AM   
Ocelotl

 

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quote:

ASL was NEVER EVER real time, so, Close Combat doesn't even come close to being ASL in any form


I disagree

quote:

Computer ASL interpretations
There have been a number of computer game interpretations of ASL.
Close Combat by Atomic Games was originally devised as a computer game version of ASL. Atomic Games had already developed several games for Avalon Hill, however, with Avalon Hill embroiled in a financial crisis that would ultimately lead to its demise, Atomic Games took what work they had completed, severed ties with the boardgame franchise and completed the game's development for Microsoft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Squad_Leader

While not an exact replica (never said it was) of ASL, CC series is the closest and has obvious ties with its makers...

< Message edited by Ocelotl -- 10/25/2006 5:23:30 AM >

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 5:44:02 AM   
Sarge


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Status: offline 		Peter,

That is outstanding,well done


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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 5:51:05 AM   
Sarge


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ORIGINAL: Ocelotl

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Squad_Leader


Ranthood may be harsh at times, but he isn’t stupid , we all know what ASL is

quote:


While not an exact replica (never said it was) of ASL, CC series is the closest and has obvious ties with its makers...


I will have to disagree,
Actually CC is the furthest from ASL of the three titles I mentioned.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 5:54:40 AM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Peter,

That is outstanding,well done



Thanks, last year in November I was browsing the net and looking for some interesting WW2 game that I would like to work on since I got sick and tired waiting for someone else to make me the perfect wargame I want to play. Then I came across MMP web site again and I knew ASL was deep and well respected system with tons of stuff and of course it's not cheap but then I saw ASL Starter Kit #1 and #2 selling for like $25 so I figured hey let's give it a try...then the rest is history, I got hooked big time. So I bought ASLSK #1, #2, Full ASL rulebook, Yanks, pre-ordered at that time BV3, ASL SK3, bought Pegasus Bridge HASL, KGP II, Streets of Fire and Hedgerow Hell deluxe modules, AOO and now FKaC and I have Valour of the Guards on pre-order :) Nothing comes close to ASL...and I want to play it on computer because otherwise I'm gonna loose my brain and my girlfriend will leave me as well playing around with those paper counters and maps...which I don't want that to happen so I want my PC to handle all the rules so that I can concentrate on game play and strategy. My Scenario Editor will allow me to connect 12 ASL boards together…I can either make my own or load pre-saved the original ASL boards. Still a lot of work ahead but that's ok...I'm having a blast and already have few ASL diehards testing the rules for me.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 10/25/2006 5:58:53 AM >

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 6:12:50 AM   
Sarge


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Do you have a forum you regularly post at regarding the development . If not, please keep us up to date on the your project.




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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 6:18:37 AM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


Do you have a forum you regularly post at regarding the development . If not, please keep us up to date on the your project.






At this point, XASL is still in development the first phase is being tested right now for a few months and tweaking the rules...I will post more pictures here in the future.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 10/25/2006 6:20:49 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 6:52:23 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		There is really two harsh truths that will always marr anything connected with official ASL.

1. the real ownership is with Hasbro, better termed Hasborg. And Hasborg doesn't do small.

Which is why they were ok with leaving it to

2. Multiman Publishing, the official source of genuine ASL.

Sadly though, Hasborg went and sold the electronic rights to Paradox, who likely knows only a fraction more about ASL, than an atypical Hasborg upper management suit.

And this state of conditions has for some time now, made it so MMP is constantly claiming it can't do this and can't do that, if it involves anything even remotely electronic due to vague notions of what would constitute "electronic rights" to ASL ... currently controlled by Paradox.

Soooooo the closest you are likely to ever get to playing actual ASL on your computer, is with VASL, and the actual boardgame set up in your home.

If you like real time, you want Close Combat, if you prefer 3d, go with Combat Mission, if you want something that visually looks like ASL, you want Steel Panthers. I have even played custom made scenarios designed to look exactly like SL and or ASL scenrios.
The Guards Counterattack for instance, plays incredibly true to the actual Squad Leader scenario.

I of course wish anyone well trying to make a real ASL game, but, I am being realistic when I say, chances of it going on sale, are dim at best. Hasborg is like that.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 7:08:03 AM   
pad152

 

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Status: offline 		One thing you can say about computer ports of Squad Leader is the two greatest failures of all time (Close Combat, Combat Mission) both started out as ports of ASL. Funny, the only computer game to carry the SL title (hasbro version) was total crap!

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Post #: 16
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/25/2006 7:17:40 AM   
Ocelotl

 

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Status: offline 		Ya I know the probably everyone here knows what ASL is... not the point of the link (posted to show where i got the qoute from)the quote states what I think ie Avalon hill and Atomic teamed up to make a computer version of ASL and again my only point is that CC II is an interpretation. (key word) of ASL. Now by interpretation I dont mean exact replica just a loosely based version which I believe CC is... and having played both I still stand by my thoughts ...cheers

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Post #: 17
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/26/2006 5:08:36 AM   
ravinhood


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Status: offline 		Well saying it's an interpretation is one thing, saying it's the "closest" thing to ASL is another. I still stand by SPWAW as the closest thing to ASL over all three "inerpretations". It's looks like it and it's turn based and you can build the battlemaps and unit representations from "Squad Leader" from it. Combat Mission comes 2nd, but, doesn't look like it or is turn based in the true sense of turn based gaming like ASL. Close Combat comes last and in my book doesn't even come at all being RTS, parterned with Avalon Hill or not it's just not ASL.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 10/27/2006 5:07:57 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/26/2006 7:45:29 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Close Combat is not RTS.  It's unfair to the game to refer to it that way.



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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/26/2006 9:51:41 AM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Close Combat is not RTS. It's unfair to the game to refer to it that way.



Yep, the term "continuous time" is more appropriate.


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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/26/2006 4:14:16 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		RTS, man that term has baggage eh.

I think though, my beef lies more with the "S" than any other portion of the term. I tend to think of "strategy" as something connected with "thinking". There is no thinking with the mainstream conventional RTS genre. and, if you actually DO need to think while playing one, well, you have my sympathies on your stunted intellect :)

Calling a Close Combat game anything more than real time is unnecessary. Yes, it doesn't have turns, and that is about the extent of it. It plays in real time, as opposed to turn time.
Although the term "real" I think occasionally goes to some people's heads, as if the time used in turns is not a reflection of increments of actual time.

But there is no moronic resource gathering, nor production of units in steady streams. You don't get to do a Zerg rush, you either have an intelligent plan of attack before you even begin, or your opponent likely already owns you.

I wouldn't even own Close Combat if it had no genuine connection with the realm of tangible wargaming.

No one that plays ASL seriously, is likely to have much interest in wasting time on the conventional RTS offerings.
No game made to emulate Squad Leader is going to get far, if it's dummied down for a person that had never even experienced Squad Leader.

Close Combat, Combat Mission, and Steel Panthers are all seriously designed wargames. They took a differing path from each other, but they all had the same goal. A tangible feeling squad level wargame.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/26/2006 11:44:34 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Yep, the term "continuous time" is more appropriate.



Dunno about that; I associate that description more with Airborne Assault and Armored Task Force. I think "real-time strategy" is actually a pretty good description of Close Combat if you lose the associations of that phrase. The only problem is that that description and the 'RTS' acronym is almost exclusively associated with a very specific type of game - and Close Combat is not such a game.

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Post #: 22
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 1:22:07 AM   
Ocelotl

 

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Status: offline 		Well it all comes down to perception and from mine it is the closest thing...

I played ASL in the early nineties I believe...got distracted and didnt have time for it anymore...to busy.
I found CC and was mesmerized with it bought CCII and was just as impressed. Not until about three years ago did I start to play head to head. What a difference to match wits with people in that game. Everything from sudden ambushes, use of fire lanes, flanking, hand to hand combat, beserk squad members, infantry flamethrowers and to a certain extent leaders (rallying broken troops), use of smoke, sneaking/concealed movement all these things I was initially introduced to with ASL. So the jump from one to another was seamless for me. Like I said in another post... if you havent played CC head to head (as opposed to the AI) you havent really played CC

To be fair there are quirks in the CC system (at least with the version I play) tanks "wandering" on their own into the los of an AT weapon, prisoners inducing "friend block" when trying to fire on the guarding unit, and the dreaded "alt los tricks" to name a few. However the intense, nerve wracking nature head to head play more than make up for its faults

Of the three games mentioned I only own to CC and Combat Mission.
I dont have any experience with SPWAW, but I did just download the free version to check it out

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 5:05:05 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Close Combat is not RTS.  It's unfair to the game to refer to it that way.




Look I played the game(s) and I know what RTS is. To tone it down to "continous" time is just silly. It's in real time it's NOT TURN BASED. That's the bottom line. But, to add more point....ASL is not "continous time" either. ;) Nor is SPWAW. ;)

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Post #: 24
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 7:40:13 AM   
dinsdale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Close Combat is not RTS. It's unfair to the game to refer to it that way.




Look I played the game(s) and I know what RTS is. To tone it down to "continous" time is just silly. It's in real time it's NOT TURN BASED. That's the bottom line. But, to add more point....ASL is not "continous time" either. ;) Nor is SPWAW. ;)


All games are turn based, some have faster turns than others. Continuous time simply makes pressing "Next Turn" redundant.

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Post #: 25
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 1:40:53 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Yep, the term "continuous time" is more appropriate.



Dunno about that; I associate that description more with Airborne Assault and Armored Task Force. I think "real-time strategy" is actually a pretty good description of Close Combat if you lose the associations of that phrase. The only problem is that that description and the 'RTS' acronym is almost exclusively associated with a very specific type of game - and Close Combat is not such a game.



I actually find the description pretty fitting, since you can adjust the speed of ho time flows in CC.

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Post #: 26
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 6:37:57 PM   
ravinhood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Close Combat is not RTS. It's unfair to the game to refer to it that way.




Look I played the game(s) and I know what RTS is. To tone it down to "continous" time is just silly. It's in real time it's NOT TURN BASED. That's the bottom line. But, to add more point....ASL is not "continous time" either. ;) Nor is SPWAW. ;)


All games are turn based, some have faster turns than others. Continuous time simply makes pressing "Next Turn" redundant.


Very well, ASL doesn't have "faster turns", SPWAW doesn't have faster turns, they both use the IGOUGO method, CC has faster turns therefore it's not ASL or even close and uses the RT method or as some would say CT either or it is not IGOUGO. ;)

To put it another way CC doesn't have automatic pause for input of strategy or tactics like a "slower" turn based game does. ;)

I guess we can start calling turn based games "automatic paused games". So, ASL and SPWAW are APG's. Or No Action while I think games with an organized stoppage of the game at constant intervals of completion of each players turn.

I would say CC is a live action toy game while ASL and SPWAW are traditional grognard wargames. The difference here is the kid who likes things that move and go pow pow vs the more intelligent child that prefers a chesslike atmosphere of thought and strategy and tactics at liesure. The twitcher eyecandy kid vs the thinker. :)

And where yah been Dinny? Haven't seen you around in awhile. ;) How's Paradox treating you these days? ;) hehe

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Post #: 27
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 7:14:40 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I would say CC is a live action toy game while ASL and SPWAW are traditional grognard wargames. The difference here is the kid who likes things that move and go pow pow vs the more intelligent child that prefers a chesslike atmosphere of thought and strategy and tactics at liesure. The twitcher eyecandy kid vs the thinker. :)



As a matter of interest, have you ever played competitive chess? There ain't no 'at leisure' there, just the pressure of the clock. Maybe the kid that would prefer CC is the one who can handle the pressure to make the right decisions within severe time constraints - the same constraints you have in most of the real world. Not least on a battlefield.


< Message edited by Hertston -- 10/27/2006 7:16:39 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 7:23:44 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		I used to love arcade games as a kid, it's not like I didn't enjoy them.

I have both CC as well as SPWaW, both because they are good games.

But, where I personally see the problem in the debate, is the perception that the speed of one game, delivers a "superior simulation" according to some opinions.

That is the core of my own personal beef. CC is not "more realistic" than SPWaW by virtue of it not having turns, nor is SPWaW more of a wargame by being more thorough in a thought out fashion.
Both are good games, while on the other hand, one CAN find games out there that simply suck, real time or turn based. A mode of design will not prevent a game from sucking :)

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Post #: 29
RE: advanced squad leader - 10/27/2006 7:44:14 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I would say CC is a live action toy game while ASL and SPWAW are traditional grognard wargames. The difference here is the kid who likes things that move and go pow pow vs the more intelligent child that prefers a chesslike atmosphere of thought and strategy and tactics at liesure. The twitcher eyecandy kid vs the thinker. :)



As a matter of interest, have you ever played competitive chess? There ain't no 'at leisure' there, just the pressure of the clock. Maybe the kid that would prefer CC is the one who can handle the pressure to make the right decisions within severe time constraints - the same constraints you have in most of the real world. Not least on a battlefield.




You mean "clickfest" chess, LOL

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