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RE: 6.15 ERRORS

 
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RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 10/31/2006 2:58:49 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		Sid, please reread Don's post again. System wasnt changed in 1.8, only minor fix was done to carrier units landing in a base.

Name of ship 3586 "SN Razyashtchi": Разящий 

Р а з я   щ   и й
R A Z Ya Shch Y Y (last Y in most transcriptions is ommited)


so Razyashchy without T.

< Message edited by Monter_Trismegistos -- 10/31/2006 3:31:30 PM >

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Post #: 331
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 10/31/2006 4:48:53 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Yea - but the way he explains it does not make sense. He said 6 times .4 = 2.4 round to 2. But the .4 is of group size, not squadron size. Otherwise how would 60 plus 40 = 100? His theory does not explain what happened to you.
Does not matter - it is intolerable. We need to figure out how to avoid it - or not use 1.8 at all. Too many ill effects of this stuff.


Sid you don't understand.

The calculation FOR EACH SQUADRON is based on total carrier capacity.

Hermes has a capacity of 20 (or 18??). With one fighter squadron and one bomber/toprpedo squadron the calculation is:
Fighter: .6 times 20 = 12
Bomber: .4 times 20 = 8.

If it had a single squadron, the factor is .9:
.9 times 20 = 18

The calculation does indeed truncate, so capacity 21 would be the same as capacity 20:
21 times .9 = 18.9 truncate to 18 (etc)

These calculations set the maximum aircraft value for each squadron. Normal resizing will take at least one day and maybe more to reset the squadron to this size.


witpqs

I am travelling and do not have access to my test facility. Please post a screenshot of one of the squadrons so I can see what you are seeing. If there is a problem, please retain your save until I get back in November.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 332
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 12:05:55 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Don,

I didn't notice when they re-sized but I believe I can reproduce it at will with just 2-3 days of a new game. Contact me when you get back and I willl make one for you.

Also, FYI CVL Hermes (in RHS at least) has capacity 12. It begins populated with 2 x squadrons. Both squadrons are 6 x Swordfish torpedo planes (total 12 planes on board). No fighters.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 333
RE: RHS 5&6.17 comprehensive update files uploaded - 11/1/2006 1:13:20 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have sent out all 12 Level 5 and 6 scenario file sets - which should appear in due course on the RHS site.

This includes a major update of Soviet Air Forces and ground infrastructures (so you can actually operate the planes).
With two exceptions, Soviet ground units support air divisions, rather than groups. [The exceptions are in places forever supply limited]. One unit - at a point that could never be supplied ever (except by air transports - which Russia had none of to start with) - was moved. Unit designations are converted to Russian language terms but using English letters rather than Cyrillic. All units except independent ones (which have the prefix O) have a division affiliation following the unit name: 216th/20 IAP is the 216th Fighter Air Regiment attached to 20th Division (we don't say what kind: it might be a fighter division with two or three fighter regiments, an assault division with only one fighter regiment, or a composite division with only one fighter regiment). We used every possible slot - and unless we find duplicate units to replace - additional units must come at the expense of something else.

It includes a good deal of eratta - nothing particularly critical - the most significant of which are probably elimination of duplicate units (RAF 8 Squadron is also RAF 200 Squadron - an error in stock, CHS, RHS, everything; two different versions of the same Chindit Brigade). Also we converted all Swordfish Squadrons to use the Swordfish I - which was in the data set but not implimented in the squadrons. The Toyoda engine is once again in use for Japan (don't get rid of those engine plants UNLESS you don't want the G7M1) - which I bet you do - it is probably the best torpedo bomber in the world.

There is a bit more work on Commonwealth units - but not much. More is required - but I felt enough here warranted release - and I need to do the CW for the Level 7 work anyway. Basically you picked up a reserve brigade earlier, and maybe a regiment or so otherwise (= battalion - you know how those Brits are with words like "regiment"). India is still understrength - but I have the data now (thanks to this Forum) - and just need to get it sorted out.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 334
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 1:16:56 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Yea - but the way he explains it does not make sense. He said 6 times .4 = 2.4 round to 2. But the .4 is of group size, not squadron size. Otherwise how would 60 plus 40 = 100? His theory does not explain what happened to you.
Does not matter - it is intolerable. We need to figure out how to avoid it - or not use 1.8 at all. Too many ill effects of this stuff.


Sid you don't understand.

The calculation FOR EACH SQUADRON is based on total carrier capacity.

Hermes has a capacity of 20 (or 18??). With one fighter squadron and one bomber/toprpedo squadron the calculation is:
Fighter: .6 times 20 = 12
Bomber: .4 times 20 = 8.

If it had a single squadron, the factor is .9:
.9 times 20 = 18

The calculation does indeed truncate, so capacity 21 would be the same as capacity 20:
21 times .9 = 18.9 truncate to 18 (etc)

These calculations set the maximum aircraft value for each squadron. Normal resizing will take at least one day and maybe more to reset the squadron to this size.


witpqs

I am travelling and do not have access to my test facility. Please post a screenshot of one of the squadrons so I can see what you are seeing. If there is a problem, please retain your save until I get back in November.




Oddly enough, I do understand and we are saying the same thing. Ship capacity = air group size.
One confusion though: Hermes ship capacity is only 12. She was rated at 15 until 1935 and was once rated more than 20 - long before that. When she went over to "modern" Swordfish she could only handle 12! So both CHS and RHS rate her at 12.

The question is this: if 40% was of ship capacity - how did WITPQS end up with 2 planes per demi-squadron?

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 335
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 1:20:32 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Sid, please reread Don's post again. System wasnt changed in 1.8, only minor fix was done to carrier units landing in a base.

Name of ship 3586 "SN Razyashtchi": Ðàçÿùèé 

Ð à ç ÿ   ù   è é
R A Z Ya Shch Y Y (last Y in most transcriptions is ommited)


so Razyashchy without T.



Too late for x.17 - but noted.

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 336
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 2:46:06 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Don,

I didn't notice when they re-sized but I believe I can reproduce it at will with just 2-3 days of a new game. Contact me when you get back and I will make one for you.

Also, FYI CVL Hermes (in RHS at least) has capacity 12. It begins populated with 2 x squadrons. Both squadrons are 6 x Swordfish torpedo planes (total 12 planes on board). No fighters.


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Oddly enough, I do understand and we are saying the same thing. Ship capacity = air group size.
One confusion though: Hermes ship capacity is only 12. She was rated at 15 until 1935 and was once rated more than 20 - long before that. When she went over to "modern" Swordfish she could only handle 12! So both CHS and RHS rate her at 12.

The question is this: if 40% was of ship capacity - how did WITPQS end up with 2 planes per demi-squadron?


We put a change into airgroup size calculation in 1.8 to support single squadron airgroups (specifically for Hermes, Hosho, and a few CVEs). For a reason that I no longer recall, we (I) set the calculation at 90%.

So, I'd recommend changing Hermes' airgroup to a single squadron (No. 814 if I recall) and setting the capacity to 14. (14 * .9 = 12.6 = 12). A capacity of 12 would only net 10.

I have no idea why witpqs is seeing the anomaly he describes. If both squadrons are Swordfish they should each get 40%. 12 * .4 = 4.8 = 4 so the max aircraft should be 4 each. Not historically correct but mathamatically so. I'd like to see his results.


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 337
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 6:18:49 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Well, since I'm getting 2 each that 2 + 2 = 4 (what a cliche!), so maybe the routine takes total # of the plane type into account?

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Post #: 338
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 6:45:53 AM   
BigJ62


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From: Alpharetta, Georgia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Well, since I'm getting 2 each that 2 + 2 = 4 (what a cliche!), so maybe the routine takes total # of the plane type into account?


It's almost like the routine thinks there is a fighter group onboard(.6) and whatever is left over is divided between the bomber groups .2 per group out of a truncated 10 or something.

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Post #: 339
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 6:53:26 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Oddly I once set the Hermes to only one squadron, but Andrew wrote it had to be two demi-squadrons for the resize routine (no doubt true at that time). If a CVL can have one squadron - that is fine - and if resize puts it at 90% - that is close enough to live with. We can say it simulates lost capacity if the group upgrades to bigger planes - which most of the time it will in games. In fact - rating it as 12 for Swordfish and 11 for something else is probably right anyway. We didn't understand the function was (greatest intiger). Joe had used in his example the (round off) function. But it is nice to know the real function - so we have more influence.

Still - the problem remains - what of other air groups and resizing. Is there a way to avoid it and not kill off all replacements forever? We have air groups that won't get along well with this code. What would it do with a recon unit? It isn't fighter, VT or VB. Then there is the matter that late war carriers appear with the correct groups - so why would we want to change them anyway?

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/1/2006 6:56:16 AM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 340
RE: 6.15 ERRORS - 11/1/2006 7:01:15 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Well, since I'm getting 2 each that 2 + 2 = 4 (what a cliche!), so maybe the routine takes total # of the plane type into account?


It's almost like the routine thinks there is a fighter group onboard(.6) and whatever is left over is divided between the bomber groups .2 per group out of a truncated 10 or something.


This is exactly correct. How foolish of me to not have realized it. The routine does indeed consider the number of squadrons of fighter/non-fighter in it's calculation. Anything else would tend to over-stuff the carrier.

Once two non-fighter squadrons are detected the calculation is indeed: capacity * .4/2. And, since integers are used, all results will truncate.

If there are two groups, 60% of capacity is reserved for fighters (on British carriers). The remaining 40% is split between the two squadrons detected: (12 * .4)/2 = 2.

Returning Hermes to a single Swordfish squadron seems a very good idea.

And, in anticipation of the next question: no.



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Post #: 341
Carrier Group Assignments - 11/1/2006 7:23:26 AM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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For those doing mods, here are the carrier air group compositions that can be properly handled by WITP:


Japanese CV: 3 squadrons - VF, VB, VT
Japanese CVL: 2 Squadrons - VF, VB or VT
British Carriers: 3 Squadrons - 1 or 2 VF, 2 or 1 VB/VT
US CVs: Basically 4 Squadrons - VF, VS, VB, VT but:
1. The VS and VB are combined in 1943 giving three squadrons.
2. A VBF is added in 1945, returning to four squadrons
US CVL/CVE: 2 squadrons - VF and VB/VT
Any carrier of any nation will work with a single squadron of any type.

Allocations between squadron types change over time, generally more VF, less VT - migrating to more VF, less non-VF.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 342
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/1/2006 1:56:45 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This list seems to omit the case of a British CVE - of which there are many. Presumably they are the same as CVL?

This all seems very complicated - and re RN and IJN also very ahistoric. It is as if the people thinking about this are unaware that it was more common than not to have more than three squadrons on board one ship - and often more than three types of planes. USN believed in scout bombers, but RN believed in scout fighters, and IJN believed in true carrier recon planes. [Both the D4 and C6 series remained combat effective for the duration of the war in a technical sense]. It is impossible to model any late war IJN CV accurately without four different plane types - do you omit VF, VB, VT or VR? And IF we bother to outfit a ship with such planes properly - why then is the ship forbidden to operate with its historial group? [RN is even more complicated - and probably needs simplification to no more than four types - but they might be VF, VFB, VFR, VB or VT - in various combinations - but not usually all five at once].

I like the "any carrier will operate with one squadron" fine - just not the "90% resize" if only one squadron rule. Sort of like "you must waste 10% of the space" - which we may rationalize against the "you can overload by 10% or so" rule - and maybe compensate for artifically. At least we know. It permits some ships to be more historical (Hermes for example). I don't like all the thousand hours of work on carrier air groups being for naught - and I am not willing to undo it to go toward INACCURATE groups. If we cannot find a way to evade this rule - I am going to opt out of 1.8 and later versions of WITP. We have been able to evade resizing until now: is there no way to evade it now? In RHS - for example - we have an early war carrier recon plane (one developed but not produced) - in the form of a Recon Kate - and ALL our IJN CVs have four air groups. Many RN CVs do as well. I don't even want to think about how to redo the FAA - a nightmare to begin with.

But here is an idea: What if we just go to UV type basing? That is, DO NOT Keep air groups together? Mix and match as required when the groups resize? It is inefficient - it is going to be inconvenient for a small force at a critical time - but we might be able to live with it. I hear even land planes operate from carriers just fine - just with higher attrition - so maybe we can just do what we want? Problem is - apparently doing things historically is not allowed. Ugh.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 343
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/1/2006 2:09:06 PM   
el cid again

 

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[Note that in IJN what CVs had was a "Daitai" each of fighters, dive bombers or torpedo bombers. Each daitai was usually two - but it might be 1, 2 or 3 - "units" of 9 or 12 planes. Each "unit" had shotai of 3 planes - but later fighter units had shotai of 4 planes divided in to two "buntai" or elements of 2. Now in proper English - usually a unit composed of several flights is a "squadron" - but in many translations, a Daitai is a "squadron" - leading to confusion. In addition to these three daitai - by midwar IJN CVs also operated a unit of dedicated recon planes - and one carrier at Midway had an experimental precursor - with a single shotai of D4Y1-Cs on their operational debut. Each Japanese carrier in the Kiddo Butai technically had 7 to 9 squadrons on board if "units" are squadrons - and in WITP countless hundreds of squadrons exist of 8 or 9 or 10 or 12 planes. By the Battle of the Philippine Sea some planes were so big that usually only one unit of TB would be carried, but the fighter units were divided into "fighter" and "fighter bomber" functions - even if the same type of plane (e.g. A6M5) - and were wholly reorganized into "units" of 16.]

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/1/2006 8:41:48 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 344
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/1/2006 3:47:51 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
If we cannot find a way to evade this rule - I am going to opt out of 1.8 and later versions of WITP. We have been able to evade resizing until now: is there no way to evade it now?

Sid,

A couple of things. First, 1.8 is not the issue. They only made a change to mitigate some things in re-sizing and rebasing. The same thing I am seeing now would have happened prior to 1.8 had RHS with Hermes 2 squadrons been available then. Second, It just isn't practical to give up the many other fixes and changes. They are too important. Third, Don gave us a way to avoid re-sizing: Turn Off Replacements in the carriers' squadrons. It's a pain in the rear, because it means we would have to put the TF in port and them manually draw a/c from the replacement pool. I would much rather have either a fix or dummy up the groups somehow until the code is modified (we might have to lobby a bit for that).


quote:


But here is an idea: What if we just go to UV type basing? That is, DO NOT Keep air groups together? Mix and match as required when the groups resize? It is inefficient - it is going to be inconvenient for a small force at a critical time - but we might be able to live with it. I hear even land planes operate from carriers just fine - just with higher attrition - so maybe we can just do what we want? Problem is - apparently doing things historically is not allowed. Ugh.


I doubt that the re-size happens only one discreet time. I presume the procedure will just catch up to whatever is put on the carrier.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 345
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN (today) - 11/1/2006 8:37:25 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Working on the carrier problem, I discovered

1) Some single squadron carriers benefit from the revised system - including Hermes and IJA carriers (not a typo for IJN)

2) RHSRAO has some problems with Allied ship status (being appropriate for RAO)

3) RHSPPO has a very confusing offset of 3 between naval air groups and ships (still or again) which needs correction

4) Formal definition by Don of the carrier resize rules requires redefinition of some carrier air group sizes. This produces the strange effect that the data set must LIE about HISTORICAL air group sizes in order to get the TRUTH!
[Bizzarre given Joe says the concern is not having players do ahistorical air groups!] This only fixes one squadron carriers - but that is better than none - and great for HMS Hermes. I think I can make it work for some two squadron CVL/CVE and three squadron CV as well.

I recommend by-passing x.17 level altogether - although it will run well except with respect to carrier resize.


I hope to issue x.18 addressing these matters today.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 346
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/1/2006 8:42:46 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
If we cannot find a way to evade this rule - I am going to opt out of 1.8 and later versions of WITP. We have been able to evade resizing until now: is there no way to evade it now?

Sid,

A couple of things. First, 1.8 is not the issue. They only made a change to mitigate some things in re-sizing and rebasing. The same thing I am seeing now would have happened prior to 1.8 had RHS with Hermes 2 squadrons been available then. Second, It just isn't practical to give up the many other fixes and changes. They are too important. Third, Don gave us a way to avoid re-sizing: Turn Off Replacements in the carriers' squadrons. It's a pain in the rear, because it means we would have to put the TF in port and them manually draw a/c from the replacement pool.





Will that work? If so - OK. And I can use Don's data to fix many carriers - just not those CV with 4 squadrons. We also will gain slots - one for Hermes and about six for Japan air groups. Ironically I did Hermes as one squadron until Andrew wrote all ships had to have two! Same for the IJA merchant aircraft carriers. My impression is Andrew was right - it was based on some experience or tests - probably under a version older than 1.6.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 347
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/2/2006 12:05:10 AM   
Bliztk


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Status: offline 		Did you get all my data corrections ? The Yorktown class have an terminal upgrade to a Balao Modified Class Sub

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Post #: 348
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/2/2006 12:07:00 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Status: offline 		So what? You don't like subs? :P

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Post #: 349
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/2/2006 12:11:31 AM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline 		Submarines operating with F8F Bearcats ?

What a potent weapon






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 350
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/2/2006 12:32:49 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Submarines operating with F8F Bearcats ?

What a potent weapon









I guess they'll fight over the torpedoes??(Six facing the rear??)


< Message edited by m10bob -- 11/2/2006 12:36:17 AM >

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Post #: 351
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/2/2006 12:39:20 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		Imagine about a dozen of these "subs" patrolling in the South China Sea.

That would be closed to all shipping in a big hurry.


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Post #: 352
RE: Carrier Group Assignments - 11/2/2006 12:52:38 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Will that work? If so - OK. And I can use Don's data to fix many carriers - just not those CV with 4 squadrons. We also will gain slots - one for Hermes and about six for Japan air groups. Ironically I did Hermes as one squadron until Andrew wrote all ships had to have two! Same for the IJA merchant aircraft carriers. My impression is Andrew was right - it was based on some experience or tests - probably under a version older than 1.6.


I don't know, and I wouldn't trust the results of a short-term test for an issue like this. So, I wouldn't be confident until much later. I prefer the solution you seem to be pursuing, namely change the airgroups to accommodate the code. It's unfortunate but I agree it's the best decision if/until the code gets modified and that would be quite a while.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 353
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN (tomorrow?) - 11/2/2006 1:51:30 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I had to fight a bloody skirmish with the IJA in a Tag Team game

otherwise looks like we can make some things better with carriers -

and I have instructions for players who have problems with historical groups - if they ever resize.

TOMARROW

Going to work now.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 354
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN (tomorrow?) - 11/2/2006 1:56:00 AM   
Mifune


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Status: offline 		"I had to fight a bloody skirmish with the IJA in a Tag Team game" The Cid and Nemo team might have bloodier confrontations than against the "Allies"

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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 355
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN UPLOADED - 11/3/2006 6:48:29 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Uploading completed for all Level 5 and 6 scenarios at x.18 Level.

This is suitable for use, but there are a number of identified eratta not folded in. This is issued to get
a number of things out for use/testing - and to convert single squadron carriers in fact to single squadron
in game - in a way that won't be resized. [They will resize to the right size every time!]

When all eratta are in, and any other matters that arise are addressed, there will be an x.19 level release

UNLESS

Level 7 is completed first.

When that happens we will go to 5.20 for all scenarios. We will upload 6 one last time - and then convert all 6x files to Level 7. Level 5 will continue to be updated.

Level 5 uses the Andrew Brown compatable map system.

Level 6 uses the interim shipping track map system - to detect issues related to it.


(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 356
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN UPLOADED - 11/3/2006 7:01:26 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Sid,

I've got a game in April '42 EOS 6.15.

- Do any Victory ships come in so early? I've got two already. Let me know if that's wrong and I'll get the names & slots.


(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 357
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN UPLOADED - 11/3/2006 3:33:58 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
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Status: offline 		No. The first Victory ship was launched 28 Feb 1944. She was the SS United Victory.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/3/2006 3:39:24 PM >

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Post #: 358
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN UPLOADED - 11/3/2006 9:39:20 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		And just out of curiosity - what was the first Liberty ship?

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Nec Temere Nec Timide
Bez strachu ale z rozwagą

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 359
RE: RHS 5&6.17 BYPASS and 5&6.18 PLAN UPLOADED - 11/4/2006 1:45:00 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		The Liberty ship was invented by a British merchant shipping magnet - and prototypes were built long before we usually think of. However- the concept got coopted by the British formally - who then asked the US to implement it- for safety (in case Britain was overrun). It didn't get the name "Liberty" until the US took over the program - and modified it to US standards. It depends on what counts which ship is "first" - and I can't look it up for plus 10 hours. I do work sometimes!

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 360
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