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Joined: 8/27/2003 From: expatriate german Status: offline
Regarding invadable Hexes. I assume that the AI needs a proper definition of these hexes as well. If thats the case, they would be a welldefined group, so couldnt they be shown as some kind of on/off overlay without too much effort? This would help a great deal, I imagine.
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Norden --------------------------------------------------------------- Hexagonally challenged
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Joined: 10/7/2002 From: Toronto Status: offline
I think Steve said he was going to do this, and for other toggles as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Norden
Regarding invadable Hexes. I assume that the AI needs a proper definition of these hexes as well. If thats the case, they would be a welldefined group, so couldnt they be shown as some kind of on/off overlay without too much effort? This would help a great deal, I imagine.
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Yohan
I think Steve said he was going to do this, and for other toggles as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Norden
Regarding invadable Hexes. I assume that the AI needs a proper definition of these hexes as well. If thats the case, they would be a welldefined group, so couldnt they be shown as some kind of on/off overlay without too much effort? This would help a great deal, I imagine.
The paragraph on red and blue factories on the 7th page does not seem to be entirely correct regarding their normal/damaged/destroyed status. I might recommend re-wording it entirely, thusly (also correcting what I think is the error):
"There are 2 types of factories in WIF, denoted by their color: red and blue. For example, Berlin has 3 red factories while Hanover has 1 blue factory. Red factories are indestructible and may be used by anyone who owns the hex containing them. Blue factories can be destroyed by strategic air bombing or by hostile land units, and may only be used by the major or minor power that owned them in 1939. Any factory can be damaged by strategic bombing. Damaged [...]"
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: composer99
The paragraph on red and blue factories on the 7th page does not seem to be entirely correct regarding their normal/damaged/destroyed status. I might recommend re-wording it entirely, thusly (also correcting what I think is the error):
"There are 2 types of factories in WIF, denoted by their color: red and blue. For example, Berlin has 3 red factories while Hanover has 1 blue factory. Red factories are indestructible and may be used by anyone who owns the hex containing them. Blue factories can be destroyed by strategic air bombing or by hostile land units, and may only be used by the major or minor power that owned them in 1939. Any factory can be damaged by strategic bombing. Damaged [...]"
I am not sure what you see wrong with the text as written. An error or an omission?
The paragraph on red and blue factories on the 7th page does not seem to be entirely correct regarding their normal/damaged/destroyed status. I might recommend re-wording it entirely, thusly (also correcting what I think is the error):
"There are 2 types of factories in WIF, denoted by their color: red and blue. For example, Berlin has 3 red factories while Hanover has 1 blue factory. Red factories are indestructible and may be used by anyone who owns the hex containing them. Blue factories can be destroyed by strategic air bombing or by hostile land units, and may only be used by the major or minor power that owned them in 1939. Any factory can be damaged by strategic bombing. Damaged [...]"
You have combined 2 dissimilar instances.
From the RaW
A blue factory is usable if you control it in the production step and it is either in your (current and/or 1939) major power’s home country or in an aligned (not conquered) minor country.
Germany could control Poland and use the factories there according to your statement but not according to the RaW.
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mziln
quote:
ORIGINAL: composer99 The paragraph on red and blue factories on the 7th page does not seem to be entirely correct regarding their normal/damaged/destroyed status. I might recommend re-wording it entirely, thusly (also correcting what I think is the error):
"There are 2 types of factories in WIF, denoted by their color: red and blue. For example, Berlin has 3 red factories while Hanover has 1 blue factory. Red factories are indestructible and may be used by anyone who owns the hex containing them. Blue factories can be destroyed by strategic air bombing or by hostile land units, and may only be used by the major or minor power that owned them in 1939. Any factory can be damaged by strategic bombing. Damaged [...]"
You have combined 2 dissimilar instances.
From the RaW
A blue factory is usable if you control it in the production step and it is either in your (current and/or 1939) major power’s home country or in an aligned (not conquered) minor country.
Germany could control Poland and use the factories there according to your statement but not according to the RaW.
There are many more rules pertaining to factories and I was not attempting to explain them all in this tutorial (all I'm really trying to say here is: "See, these are factories!"). Mziln points out one of the troubles with expanding on the explanation to make it more complete. Another is that there are 2 types of blue factories: those on the printed map and those built by the player during the game. The big difference being that the later can not be repaired.
As long as the text in the tutorials is accurate and not misleading, then I'm happy with it. When introducing Jack to Jane, it is best to leave out all the details of her dental history if you ever want him to ask her out.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets As long as the text in the tutorials is accurate and not misleading, then I'm happy with it. When introducing Jack to Jane, it is best to leave out all the details of her dental history if you ever want him to ask her out.
Who ever knew WIF was analogous to dating
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Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln
A blue factory is usable if you control it in the production step and it is either in your (current and/or 1939) major power’s home country or in an aligned (not conquered) minor country.
Germany could control Poland and use the factories there according to your statement but not according to the RaW.
Here I must disagree with that last statement. I believe I am being quite clear, if not perfectly clear. Since Germany is not the power that begins play as the owner of the Polish blue factories, it would be ineligible to use them. Of course, as Steve points out, starting to make note in the tutorial of all the rules over who may use factories and when will only be confusing.
However, what is really the key correction to be made is how factories are damaged/destroyed. Blue factories are not inevitably destroyed in strategic air raids, so I should not want to leave the novice player with the impression that they are.
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: composer99
quote:
You have combined 2 dissimilar instances.
From the RaW
A blue factory is usable if you control it in the production step and it is either in your (current and/or 1939) major power’s home country or in an aligned (not conquered) minor country.
Germany could control Poland and use the factories there according to your statement but not according to the RaW.
Here I must disagree with that last statement. I believe I am being quite clear, if not perfectly clear. Since Germany is not the power that begins play as the owner of the Polish blue factories, it would be ineligible to use them. Of course, as Steve points out, starting to make note in the tutorial of all the rules over who may use factories and when will only be confusing.
However, what is really the key correction to be made is how factories are damaged/destroyed. Blue factories are not inevitably destroyed in strategic air raids, so I should not want to leave the novice player with the impression that they are.
My original write up says nothing about strategic bombing or how factories get damaged or destroyed, just that it can happen to them and the icon will look different on the map to reflect their changed state..
So, getting back to your first comment on tutorial #3 page 7, what in particular bothers you about the paragraph on factories?
I think it is important to stick to the word "Damaged" oil resources or factories as a result of strategic bombardment, as it then gets confusing when you learn that you can "Repair" them - "Destroyed" implies permanence.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brian brian
I think it is important to stick to the word "Damaged" oil resources or factories as a result of strategic bombardment, as it then gets confusing when you learn that you can "Repair" them - "Destroyed" implies permanence.
Yeah, well sometimes they can not be repaired. Newly created factories (blue) that are destroyed can not be repaired. Blue factories that are "printed on the map" can be repaired/rebuilt when destroyed.
This is a confusing rule and I currently favor the word 'rebuilt' rather than repaired for blue factories. That works out to:
1 - Red factory can be damaged by strategic bombing, and can be repaired.
2 - Blue factory in existence prior to Sept/Oct 1939 can be destroyed by strategic bombing or a land unit stomping on it, and can be rebuilt at a reduced BP cost.
3 - Blue factory built after Sept/Oct 1939 can be destroyed by ..., and may not be rebuilt. Although a new blue factory could be built in the hex (no more than 3 factories in a hex, no more than 2 blue factories).
At this point in the tutorial, I do not want to get into these gory details.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pak19652002
We'll add this to the rules question list just in case.
Here's another that might or might not be part of your current list:
When is the US able to lend lease the Spitfire from the CW? When is China able to lend lease air units from the USSR?
Right now I have the first answered as when the US Entry option for Lend Lease to Western Allies is taken. I have the second as when Lend Lease to China is taken.
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Joined: 11/24/2005 From: adelaide, australia Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:
ORIGINAL: pak19652002
We'll add this to the rules question list just in case.
Here's another that might or might not be part of your current list:
When is the US able to lend lease the Spitfire from the CW? When is China able to lend lease air units from the USSR?
Right now I have the first answered as when the US Entry option for Lend Lease to Western Allies is taken. I have the second as when Lend Lease to China is taken.
Is this not dictated by the dates on the back of the respective counters . I am not aware of any restrictions on aircraft building apart from 13.3.2 US lend lease aircraft to china. Christo
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Joined: 10/21/2003 From: Marseilles, France Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:
ORIGINAL: pak19652002 We'll add this to the rules question list just in case.
Here's another that might or might not be part of your current list:
When is the US able to lend lease the Spitfire from the CW? When is China able to lend lease air units from the USSR?
Right now I have the first answered as when the US Entry option for Lend Lease to Western Allies is taken. I have the second as when Lend Lease to China is taken.
quote:
U got it right steve. US entry actions dictates this. Andi
Not at all.
Quote from RAW : ***************************************** 13.6.4 Lend lease (...) Foreign aircraft Some aircraft units have coloured horizontal stripes matching another major power’s colour. Don’t add these aircraft to your force pools when they enter the game. Put them into the lend-lease pool instead. During set up or this step, you can move a striped aircraft from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if: ï the source major power agrees; and ï an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the source major power’s force pool or its reserve pool. Move that other aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the lend-lease pool. (...) China may not place US sourced aircraft in its force pools until US entry option 1 (build Chinese aircraft) has been picked. ***************************************** This tells us that lend leased planes are available from the start of each scenario, except for China, who is the exception, not the rule.
Best illustration of that : The US leased CW C-47 is part of the setup for the CW in the Global War Scenario.
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:
ORIGINAL: pak19652002 We'll add this to the rules question list just in case.
Here's another that might or might not be part of your current list:
When is the US able to lend lease the Spitfire from the CW? When is China able to lend lease air units from the USSR?
Right now I have the first answered as when the US Entry option for Lend Lease to Western Allies is taken. I have the second as when Lend Lease to China is taken.
quote:
U got it right steve. US entry actions dictates this. Andi
Not at all.
Quote from RAW : ***************************************** 13.6.4 Lend lease (...) Foreign aircraft Some aircraft units have coloured horizontal stripes matching another major power’s colour. Don’t add these aircraft to your force pools when they enter the game. Put them into the lend-lease pool instead. During set up or this step, you can move a striped aircraft from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if: ï the source major power agrees; and ï an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the source major power’s force pool or its reserve pool. Move that other aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the lend-lease pool. (...) China may not place US sourced aircraft in its force pools until US entry option 1 (build Chinese aircraft) has been picked. ***************************************** This tells us that lend leased planes are available from the start of each scenario, except for China, who is the exception, not the rule.
Best illustration of that : The US leased CW C-47 is part of the setup for the CW in the Global War Scenario.
Actually, that C-47 is shown as a US air unit that the CW controls and not as a lend lease air unit with the stripe (this interpretation is from CWIF).
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Joined: 10/21/2003 From: Marseilles, France Status: offline
quote:
Actually, that C-47 is shown as a US air unit that the CW controls and not as a lend lease air unit with the stripe (this interpretation is from CWIF).
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:
Actually, that C-47 is shown as a US air unit that the CW controls and not as a lend lease air unit with the stripe (this interpretation is from CWIF).
Well, this should be changed IMO.
Ok.
So there is no rule restriction on lend leased aircraft other than this one for the Chinese-US. Otherwise, as long as the unit is in the force pool and the owning player says ok, then it can be transferred to the major power that is 'borrowing' it.
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quote:
Ok. So there is no rule restriction on lend leased aircraft other than this one for the Chinese-US. Otherwise, as long as the unit is in the force pool and the owning player says ok, then it can be transferred to the major power that is 'borrowing' it.
I would even go further, by reading the rule, the players should be allowed to say ok to this during the setup.
As no player would remember about this, I suggest that the game asks the player whether he wants some possible lend leased planes to be effectively leased, during the setup. Preferably before the planes are randomly picked up for setup.
Actually, that C-47 is shown as a US air unit that the CW controls and not as a lend lease air unit with the stripe (this interpretation is from CWIF).
Well, this should be changed IMO.
I aggree if you mean that the C-47 should be a lend lease or CW unit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:
Ok. So there is no rule restriction on lend leased aircraft other than this one for the Chinese-US. Otherwise, as long as the unit is in the force pool and the owning player says ok, then it can be transferred to the major power that is 'borrowing' it.
I would even go further, by reading the rule, the players should be allowed to say ok to this during the setup.
As no player would remember about this, I suggest that the game asks the player whether he wants some possible lend leased planes to be effectively leased, during the setup. Preferably before the planes are randomly picked up for setup.
I would agree to this as long as:
(1) The source major power agrees; and
(2) An aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the source major power’s force pool or its reserve pool."
(3) The source major power can reverse this process during this step if the striped aircraft is in the force pools or reserve pool. Move it back to the lend lease pool and move the matching aircraft to the source major power’s force pool.
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Joined: 5/19/2005 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:
Ok. So there is no rule restriction on lend leased aircraft other than this one for the Chinese-US. Otherwise, as long as the unit is in the force pool and the owning player says ok, then it can be transferred to the major power that is 'borrowing' it.
I would even go further, by reading the rule, the players should be allowed to say ok to this during the setup.
As no player would remember about this, I suggest that the game asks the player whether he wants some possible lend leased planes to be effectively leased, during the setup. Preferably before the planes are randomly picked up for setup.
I am not so sure about that. The set up rules explicitly say that the C-47 should be placed on the board. It says nothing about other lend lease planes. However, given that most scenarios start in 1940 or later, the situation of lend lease should be directly considered and decided upon.
My take on this is that all of the rest of set up details are laid out in fine detail so I would have expected the inclusion of lend lease air units in the force pools to have been part of setup. That nothing is said leads me to conclude that, historically, no requests/permission for lend lease air units had occurred.
I need to redo the entire lend lease process anyway, based on the discussion we had in the forum earlier this year on how the air units would be handled.
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