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Burma Road - 11/6/2006 11:21:27 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		While browsing the map, both real and MWiF's one, I saw something that I do not like.
It seems that the Burma Road, at least the part that is in Burma, is not well traced in MWiF .
Look at the attached picture.
Top left : How MWiF has it now.
Top Right : As WiF FE has it.
We see by comparing them that MWiF does a good job in making the map the same :
The road starts from the northern "unfinished" railway, toward China.

Bottom left and Right are maps of the area that show the Burma Road.
And both show it starting from Lashio (the end point of the southern "unfinished" railway), toward China.

Well, what do you think about this ?

Are both bottom maps an error ?
If not, should MWiF has a wrong Burma Road, just for the pleasure of repeating the WiF FE map error ?

Opinions ?





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 481
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 1:13:00 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
While browsing the map, both real and MWiF's one, I saw something that I do not like.
It seems that the Burma Road, at least the part that is in Burma, is not well traced in MWiF .
Look at the attached picture.
Top left : How MWiF has it now.
Top Right : As WiF FE has it.
We see by comparing them that MWiF does a good job in making the map the same :
The road starts from the northern "unfinished" railway, toward China.

Bottom left and Right are maps of the area that show the Burma Road.
And both show it starting from Lashio (the end point of the southern "unfinished" railway), toward China.

Well, what do you think about this ?

Are both bottom maps an error ?
If not, should MWiF has a wrong Burma Road, just for the pleasure of repeating the WiF FE map error ?

Opinions ?





Given the maps you have shown, I agree that it looks completely wrong on both the WIF FE and MWIF maps.

The road portion of the Burma Road should start from the end of the other/eastern rail line and extend due NE to the current MWIF rendering of the Burma Road - running into the hex contaiing the word Burma. The 3 hexes of the current MWIF Burma Road due west of that juncture should be removed.

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Post #: 482
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 1:14:49 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		You could also label Lashio on the map since that was the rail head (apparently).

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Post #: 483
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 1:46:54 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Good you re-checked the map, Patrice!

Not sure about the WIFFE rational, but perhaps by the 1130 solution they tried to capture both the Burma road (Mandalay-Lashio-Wanting-Kunming, built in 1938) and the Ledo road (Ledo-Myitkyina-Kunming, built from 1942? onwards and opened in 1945).

Perhaps one should think also about labeling Myitkyina (for it was THE key point for re-supplying China and therefore the main target of Stillwells Northern Burma campaign in 1944-45) and even Ledo (for it was the Western springboard for this offensive)

Sources: Barbara Tuchman, Stillwell.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Allied_lines_of_communication_in_Southeast_Asia%2C_1942-43.jpg

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Post #: 484
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 1:48:56 AM   
wosung

 

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Post #: 485
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 2:04:33 AM   
wosung

 

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Status: offline 		Somehow, the graphic didn't load...

But Ledo road was Ledo-Mytkyina-Bhamo and then perheps som sixty miles to the east straight to the Burma road.

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Post #: 486
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 2:07:24 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Somehow, the graphic didn't load...

But Ledo road was Ledo-Mytkyina-Bhamo and then perheps som sixty miles to the east straight to the Burma road.

I tried to fix the graphic but was unable.

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Post #: 487
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 9:27:19 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

You could also label Lashio on the map since that was the rail head (apparently).

I did that .
I also added Ledo (name only), in India, as it was the starting point of the Ledo Road (finished in jan 1945, that linked Ledo to Lashio).
I also added Imphal & Kohima, 2 famous WWII places on the Indian / Burmese Border.

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Post #: 488
RE: Burma Road - 11/7/2006 9:33:06 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Given the maps you have shown, I agree that it looks completely wrong on both the WIF FE and MWIF maps.

The road portion of the Burma Road should start from the end of the other/eastern rail line and extend due NE to the current MWIF rendering of the Burma Road - running into the hex contaiing the word Burma. The 3 hexes of the current MWIF Burma Road due west of that juncture should be removed.

Feel free to look at it.
I did yesterday evening, and all the maps agree with the lower ones.

Perhaps, as Wosung said, ADG tried to show both the Burma & the Ledo Road, but I think personaly that they either did this for play balance reasons (make the Burma Road less easy to cut for the Japs), either they made a mistake. On the Pacific scaled maps, the difference is only 1 hex between both ways.

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Post #: 489
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 1:23:35 AM   
Larry Smith

 

Posts: 203
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From: Williams Lake, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		On the subject of Nanchang, wasn't there a Soviet volunteer group located somewhere in this area. I remember reading about how the Soviet airgroup, flying SB-2's, staged a raid on one of the Japanese airbases around Taipei, on Taiwan. I can't recall the timing, nor can I remember how to get to the WWII history site where I read this, but if the Soviet group was in this area, and flew that mission prior to Nanchang falling, perhaps the Japanese were responding to a threat? That, or they wanted to threaten Changsha from another direction.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 490
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:15:47 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		China map has arrived. Here is the Burma road in an open state (green)




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Post #: 491
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:18:16 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		And here it is closed (cream). I want to tone this color down somewhat. CWIF used silver but that was hard to see against clear hexes. I tried gray and that disappeared completely in the mountains.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 492
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:19:54 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here's the portion of Indo-China that is done and southwestern China




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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 493
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:21:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Southeastern China, including Formosa and the northern tip of the Philippines.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 494
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:26:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Moving northwards up the coast. Several of the lakes are missing their tips.

[Patrice, the river names are easier to read if they are against clear terrain background.]

Patrice shepherded the long discussion on: what the terrain in these hexes should be; where the rivers should flow; which cities shuold be included, and a slew of other details. The final result sure looks good to me.

Thank you to everyone who participated in the China map revision.




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Post #: 495
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:28:27 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Continuing northwards. From Kaifeng to Peking to Port Arthur.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 496
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:32:09 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Moving inland - the north. Here be Communists.




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Post #: 497
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:33:30 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Moving south. Here be Nationalists.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 498
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:35:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		9th and last in the series.

So you want to conquer China. Well I hope you brought enough rice and bullets.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 499
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 7:53:01 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Green for open is logical but the white for the closed Burma Road doesn't seem quite right if open railways are almost the same colour and nearby. Another argument for changing the latter's colour perhaps .

Except I just noticed the black railways in the zoomed out piccie. They look good.

How about a bright red, orange or yellow? Purple? Some sort of warning colour.

Cheers, Neilster


< Message edited by Neilster -- 11/9/2006 7:56:57 AM >

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Post #: 500
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 9:47:11 AM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline 		Hi,
may I ask the playtesters, how the figthing in China works out in comparison to the boardgame? Here we have huge numbers of hexes and - apparantly - the same number of units. I imagine that the solid line of defense isnt possible any more and things should be much more mobile. Is that correct? Is this addressed somewhere, somehow? In effect a units controlled area is diminished hugely, possibly more realistic, but it got to be a very different play.

Norden

< Message edited by Norden -- 11/9/2006 9:50:31 AM >

_____________________________

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Hexagonally challenged

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Post #: 501
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 10:59:22 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Great work, Patrice!!! I really like it.

The only corretions from a first glance I would make have to do with the Chinese river names:

Either:
"River Huei", "River Min", etc.


Or:
"Min Chiang", "Hsi Chiang" and so on. As far as I can see, most of the time it would be just adding "Chiang", except:

"Han Shui" and "Huei Ho".
Chiang, Shui, Ho in this context all mean "river, stream".

And there is nothing to change with Wei Ho, (Yellow River) Hwang Ho and Yangtse.

Is it possible to post the map with the Burma road in the Yunnan- Burma-India border area?

Regards

(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 502
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 11:11:09 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
...

Is it possible to post the map with the Burma road in the Yunnan- Burma-India border area?

Regards

The Burma Road starts/ends at Lashio.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 503
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 11:17:51 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		And I really like the provincial names. That's quite informative, gives historical flavour and doesn't clutter the map.

Only correction:

Either: Hupei and Hopei
Or: Hupeh and Hopeh.

Both works.

Meaning is:
"[The area] North of the lakes"
"[The area] North of the [Yellow] River"

Chinese geographicial names often work this way.
(H)si (West > Kiangsi: West of the Yangtse),
Nan (South > Nanking: Southern Capital),
Tong (East > Shantong: East of the mountains. Tongking: Eastern capital=Tokio)

Regards

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 504
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 1:14:37 PM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
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Status: offline 		Si-An then means South of what? South of the desert? South of Another?

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 505
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 3:35:19 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Either:
"River Huei", "River Min", etc.

Well, I never put "river" with the river names for the other rivers, why adding it for the Chinese rivers ?
For instance, this is "Mississipi", not "Mississipi River" that is written on the map, "Volga", and not "Volga River", etc...

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 506
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 3:37:40 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

Si-An then means South of what? South of the desert? South of Another?


No, that would be "Peace in the South"

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Post #: 507
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 3:56:06 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Either:
"River Huei", "River Min", etc.

Well, I never put "river" with the river names for the other rivers, why adding it for the Chinese rivers ?
For instance, this is "Mississipi", not "Mississipi River" that is written on the map, "Volga", and not "Volga River", etc...



But then you could add the mentioned Chinese syllables for river and the names would be in accordance with maps and atlas. I'll bet there are lots of rivers on the map with parts of their name just mean "river".

Oh, and if you think the names should be consistent, make it "kiang" (like in Kiangsu and Chekiang) instead of "Chiang" and write the whole stuff in one name.

Sorry, before I wrote something different. But all this transcriptions do exist. They just reflect historical fragmentation in and about China. And it's not so easy to unify this chaos.

Regards




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Post #: 508
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 4:03:31 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

Si-An then means South of what? South of the desert? South of Another?


No, that would be "Peace in the South"


Not my day today.

Correct answer is "Peace in the West"

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 509
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 11/9/2006 8:10:43 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
Status: offline 		This might fly like a lead brick, but how about a "transparent" color for a closed Burma Road?

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 510
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