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Kentucky - 11/11/2006 1:49:02 PM   
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Jonathan Palfrey
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In FoF, I understand that Kentucky's allegiance is determined randomly, with a bias towards the Union, and a bias against whichever side keeps troops in the state.

In Frank Hunter's old ACW game, Kentucky was neutral until either side sent troops into it, in which case it automatically aligned itself with the other side.

I'm not sure which of these is more historical, but from a game point of view I like the latter method, because in a game of skill I prefer to avoid random events when feasible.

Any comments?
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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 3:03:58 PM   
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marecone
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I agree with you.

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"I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue."

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 3:14:08 PM   
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Mike Scholl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

In FoF, I understand that Kentucky's allegiance is determined randomly, with a bias towards the Union, and a bias against whichever side keeps troops in the state.

In Frank Hunter's old ACW game, Kentucky was neutral until either side sent troops into it, in which case it automatically aligned itself with the other side.

I'm not sure which of these is more historical, but from a game point of view I like the latter method, because in a game of skill I prefer to avoid random events when feasible.

Any comments?



Then play chess. Any attempt to "game" historical events should include a certain amount of uncertainty. People don't follow "fixed" reaction patterns, and political situations are only generally predictable, rarely absolutely certain. I like a bit of uncertainty..., fixed mechanistic results result in fixed mechanical play.

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 3:28:06 PM   
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spruce
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hm, I don't know if Kentucky favours the side that keeps troops there. I think it's logical some things stimulate it either going the one way or the other way ...

anyhow, I think it's logical that Kentucky has to choose a side in this polarised conflict - one day or the other. And more - in a game it should not stay independent I think ...

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 3:41:41 PM   
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Jonathan Palfrey
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You think that chess consists of 'fixed mechanical play', then? I think a lot of chess players would disagree.

Historically, in this case, some degree of randomness is probably correct; the question is, how much? And was it significant enough that removing it would be a distortion?

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 3:52:05 PM   
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spruce
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In one of the AAR's they say that Kentucky doesn't like the presence of enemy units - but it doesn't seem to force the decision Kentucky will make

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 3:58:50 PM   
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Mike Scholl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

You think that chess consists of 'fixed mechanical play', then? I think a lot of chess players would disagree.




In chess, when you move a piece..., it moves! In the Civil War era, when a General was ordered to move his forces he often balked and refused, or went in another direction, or got totally distracted. That's what I mean by "fixed mechanical play". Chess pieces WILL do what you ask them to do (within the constraints of the rules). In this game (as it should be), it's a crap shoot. And unfortunately for their own peace of mind, neither Lincoln nor Davis could just shoot the dissobediant and recalcetrant. Too many political problems attached...

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 4:23:49 PM   
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jchastain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

In FoF, I understand that Kentucky's allegiance is determined randomly, with a bias towards the Union, and a bias against whichever side keeps troops in the state.



That is a true statement. Kentucky's behavior is random and each side reduces their chances of getting Kentucky by leaving troops within her border. What this means in games terms is that both sides evacuate the state right away and then wait for her to make a decision. With movement so limited during that initial winter anyway, it isn't as if you'll make any progress by staying.

Early in the testing, I recommended that the preference be reversed and that Kentucky FAVOR a side for putting troops within the border. From a purely game implications standpoint, I thought that would produce an interesting dynamic of encouraging people to pour troops into the state which would help create some additional early fights and would force the players to make some strategic decisions as those troops would have to come from somewhere. In the end though, it was considered WAY too ahistorical as Kentucky's actual behavior was quite the opposite.

It wouldn't have worked as I envisioned anyway. Supply only extends one province beyond controlled territory and at the start, no one controlls Kentucky. Therefore USA troops would mass at the northern edge of the state and CSA troops would mass at the south of the state and no one would venture into the center and therefore battles would not occur. A massive change to the supply rules doesn't make sense when the goal is to create an ahistorical result that is really quite temporary anyway. At the end of the day, not doing as I suggested was almost certainly the right decision.

Whether it is caused randomly or by the first incursion, the real key is that the consequences cannot be overly severe. If gaining Kentucky produces a significant advantage, then it would discourage first incursion using that ruleset so that the war might be fought to the left the the right of the state and Kentucky remaining neutral throughout - which would be being ahistorical and encrouching into downright silly. In a random scenario, then as you say a powerful Kentucky would tilt the game to be too dependant upon luck. So, regardless of the system used, the key is that the entry of Kentucky should be more for flavor than a major strategic benefit to either side.

If you look at Kentucky in the game, I think you will find a design attempt to do just that. The army consist of a few garrisons that really don't materially matter. The economy is a nice addition, but hardly unbalancing. With a couple of successful impression activities, either sides can gain more resources than Kentucky provides. Economically, the blockade runner system likely has a larger random economic impact than KY. The biggest impact honestly is the time it takes for the North to lay siege to the various cities assuming it wants to bother with them. But overall, I don't think the game is won or lost by Kentucky's decision - not by a LONG shot.

So, once you cross the conceptual bridge of modeling a weak Kentucky, I don't think the system matters all that much. With the randomness here, it does force a decision early in the game so that you can get on with the actual war. Assuming both sides evacuate, it likely falls to the union 80% of the time.

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 4:36:54 PM   
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Jonathan Palfrey
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I'm not campaigning to remove all random elements from the game; this thread is merely about the allegiance of Kentucky -- which is a larger matter than the movement of one unit.

In reality, I think what happened was that Confederate troops entered the state, and Kentucky therefore declared for the Union (though the Confederacy continued to draw recruits from the state).

Two questions arise:

1. If Union troops had entered first, was there a significant chance that Kentucky would have ignored the provocation and declared for the Union anyway?

2. If both sides had stayed out, was there a significant chance that Kentucky would have decided to enter the war anyway, on one side or the other?

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 4:48:57 PM   
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Jonathan Palfrey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain
But overall, I don't think the game is won or lost by Kentucky's decision - not by a LONG shot.


That's good. I wouldn't like to have a crucial matter decided by die roll. If it's not crucial, then I can live with it.

In practice, Frank Hunter's system worked quite well. Kentucky didn't tend to stay neutral for a long time because it's too much of a blockage. Usually the Union would move in and tolerate having to conquer the state as a result. North Kentucky would fall easily; the two sides would meet in the middle, which seems reasonably historical.

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 5:55:08 PM   
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Clausel
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The Civil War experience does show that there was stronger support in Kentucky for the Union than for the Confederacy. Certainly there was a very poor response to the later offensive by Bragg/Kirby Smith. Probably the fence sitters remained in the majority (some awaiting proof of southern power through a major victory) but at that critical time there was undoubtedly lack of enthusiasm for the southern cause by a significant majority.

In that sense I feel that its very similar to the position in Missouri. Given the relative population disparity between the North and South its not surprising that northern sympathisers tended to outnumber those of the south in these border states.

For that reason I would expect the random chance for Kentucky' allegiance to reflect this - 60/40 or even higher in the Union's favour assuming no early invasion by either side. 80% is higher than I would have guessed but fine if thats what expert analysis indicates.



< Message edited by Clausel -- 11/11/2006 6:20:27 PM >

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RE: Kentucky - 11/11/2006 6:29:51 PM   
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jchastain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Clausel

For that reason I would expect the random chance for Kentucky' allegiance to reflect this - 60/40 or even higher in the Union's favour assuming no early invasion by either side. 80% is higher than I would have guessed but fine if thats what expert analysis indicates.



Just to be clear, 80% is my gut number just based on nothing more than thinking back something to the effect of "gee, it goes union most of the time... certainly more than 2/3 of the time.... maybe 3/4 or just above that.... hmmm, I'll just call it 80%" Actual formulas and results may vary.

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