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Scoring System - 11/13/2006 11:46:58 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline 		Okay, I'll admit I'm digging up an old grave, but does anyone understand how the scoring system works. Good or bad, there has to be some logic behind the system. Before anyone brings it up, I understand the ratios that determine victory/loss levels, but where do the actual points come from?

I just got a draw in an assault where it said the AI scored some 7200 points. I had about 18500, so the ratio puts it as a draw. Totaling up my losses, I came up with 2720 points. The AI controlled none of the victory hexes at the end of the game and none were points per turn hexes, so why the great difference? Does the calculation routine figure the experience of the killed/damaged units? I had a 52 to 11 kill ratio on tanks, 60 to 3 on half-tracks, 25 to 0 on artillery and 1544 to 298 on men (Okay, so they really aren't ratios ) The tanks I lost were much better quality than the AI (Panther Ds and early Tigers vs. M4s, M4A3s and Wolverines), but not enough so to offset the edge in other areas, plus 3075 points in victory hexes). The experience of my core (90-110) was much greater than that of the AI (50-70). That's why I wondered if experience is figured into the points.

It ended up being one of the most difficult assaults I've fought, mainly because I waited forever for the engineers to get through the minefield. Two companies of engineers (24 squads) took 15 turns to clear a 6 hex wide path!!! The two companies of airborne troops, plus some spec-ops units in the enemy rear took a beating due to the delay.

Considering the kill ratios, all objects were taken and within the specified timelimit (as if there was an option to go past it ), most people would consider that a victory. As I said, I know the scoring system is squirrelly, but I'm sure it's not random. There has to be logic to it.

< Message edited by RERomine -- 11/13/2006 11:55:19 PM >
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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 1:30:44 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		We'd have to ask Mike Wood about this. I get the impression that in long campaign battles, the length of time it takes to break the enemy's morale has a lot to do with it. Mike has explained the basic points ratios, so I don't know if he incorporated the time element/possession of VHs into it or if that was done when another programmer started working on the game.

I once e-mailed Tom Proudfoot and asked what he changed. He never responded. In any case, the logic behind victory levels has bever been fully explained.

I got a clue in one of my recent long campaign battles. Even though I captured all of the VHs in an advance, I still scored a draw as the enemy force was largely intact. This occurred even though I cornered and destroyed the enemy HQ unit.

I looked at the map afterwards. I was astonished to discover that the bulk of the enemy had retreated into a defensive hedgehog and laid doggo while I bypassed them. They had no leadership, and just sat there. However, my own forces were too weak to kill them. We had literally fought each other into impotence.

It looked so weird. Had they been organized, they could've easily broken out and escaped. This was in a 1942 Pacific battle. I had "VH hopped", and left those guys to wither on the vine, so to speak. My assumption was that they would run out of food, disintegrate into small bands, and try to make their way back to their encampments.

This situation actually happened to the Japanese a few times, but to see it graphically displayed in the game was an eye-opener.

(in reply to RERomine)
Post #: 2
RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 2:22:56 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Damage to units is also calculated in the total points. If a vehicle is destroyed, you receive the Value for the vehicle. If it is damaged, however, but not destroyed, you get points for the damage done. Also, if you destroy a vehicle but the crew survives, you get the Value as normal, AND you can get the Value for the crew if you destroy it later. So points come from numerous sources, and some we don't even know about.

In your case, check the amount of damage done to your units by game's end, and how many crews were destroyed (as separate units).


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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 3:43:46 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		A key phrase, Flashfyre: "and some we don't even know about".  Perhaps that is intentional. Somehow, I think that suppression points are somehow factored into this, too.   In the grand scheme of things, anything negative that happens to your force counts against you, while any damage you inflict upon your enemy counts in your favor.  In fact, that's all we need to know.  We're supposed to be conducting a battle, not toting up VPs on our pocket calculators.   

The mystery is in how it is all weighted.   In some weird  fashion, I believe that maybe we SHOULDN'T know.  This helps in preventing gaminess in simply trying to mount up VPs.  Think about it.  That's not what the game is about.   You may beat the pants off of your opponent, but still may end up with a marginal victory or a draw.  This makes you refine your tactics, but you still don't know the "magic formula".   We aren't MEANT to know the magic formula.  We just keep at it, minimize our losses, and kick the enemy's butt.  Don't forget that this is a game of abstracts, NOT absolutes. Victory isn't an absolute, is it? There's always another battle to fight.

I apologize if it sounds trite, but that's how I play. I don't care if it's against the AI or a human opponent, a veteran player can usually tell whether a battle is going in his favor or not. You don't need the game score to tell you if you've won. I'll take this a step further -- I've scored a few decisives that I felt were disappointments.

To take 25% losses in a defend mission is a failure, to my mind. I can hold my line, and not surrender a single VH, but losing 200-300 men to death or wounds just means to this virtual Lt Col that I didn't do enough to protect my men, pure and simple.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/14/2006 4:55:31 AM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 4:58:24 AM   
RERomine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
In your case, check the amount of damage done to your units by game's end, and how many crews were destroyed (as separate units).



I did calculate all damage points into the total I provided. Even the 1 point accessed to the JU-52s the airborne units came in on. No crews survived the kills of their units, so I don't know if they would even show up on the unit list if they never hit the map.

< Message edited by RERomine -- 11/14/2006 5:02:35 AM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 4:21:56 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		This is all I know about what counts toward the final score:

The total points awarded to you for Victory Hexes. Sometimes you get victory points per turn, so you may have to take some notes to keep track of this number.
You get points equal to the total battle damage you inflict. To determine this, go on the final screen to the buttons on the bottom (View Map, Save Score, Player 1, Player 2 and Done). If you were Player 1, then click Player 2's button. As you probably already know, you will see player 2's unit list. Add up the red numbers in the "Dam" column. This sum gets added to your score. (Update: the 1 damage point listed for units that malfunction does not get added to the score. I guess the AI figures that the system will eventually be fixed. Also, minor damage to aircraft does not count. I don't know why.)
You also get a bonus for units that you damaged, but did not destroy (this number will not be in red, you must calculate it yourself if you want to check it!), equal to the total score for that unit if you had destroyed it, times the ratio of the damage done to the whole unit. Mmmmkaay. For example, if I got 3 of the 6 men in A0 (worth 200 points), I would then get half (3/6) of the 200 points for that unit, or 100 points for those 3 men. Again, you must calculate this yourself for each damaged unit, as it does not otherwise show up except in the Victory Score total.
Now comes the hair-splitting. Damage points for vehicles are not easy to figure by any obvious means. I used 2 tanks in the test battle. I destroyed one to set a baseline and did 3 points of damage to the other identical tank. I got 67 points for the destroyed tank and 50 (about 70%)for the damaged tank. I figure that the score is determined as a percentage of crew lost to the entire crew. Also, the value of a unit is the base value you spent to buy it. I had five armored cars with varying experience that changed their listed cost, but I got the same "Dam" points for destroying them.
Another problem is results with fractions. When you figure a score for a damaged unit, everything after a decimal is lost, i.e., 2.9 becomes 2.
Additionally, on rare occasions one side can be awarded points for retreating units off the map. That side gets three times the unit's value and the other side gets half the unit's value. If you get reinforcements, your opponent gets 25% of their value as victory points in addition to any points for damaging or destroying them.
Mosh had a post that a designer may increase the value of a unit by a multiple and I found that page 137 in the manual confirms this. A lost unit may cost you 10-100% more than is shown in the "Dam" column. Whether the designer wishes to tell you that he has done this is something that I cannot confirm, although you can figure this out for yourself if the score looks way off.
So recapping, your score is the total points for victory hexes awarded, plus the sum of the battle damage inflicted, plus a bonus for units damaged, but not destroyed (and any bonuses for retreated units, or reinforcement units, or arranged by a scenario designer). Also, clearing mines or obstacles don't award you any points.
I hope this helps.



< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 11/14/2006 4:31:23 PM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 6:34:13 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline 		Wish I could say it helped, but the score the AI got was more than two and a half times the amount of all of my damage points. Even if I account for "damaged" infantry, it wouldn't have added up to anywhere close to the 4500 points I can't track down. The AI also didn't get anything that I saw in the final list off of the map. Almost everything it had died.

How about a multiplier? Since I was assaulting and the AI was outnumbered (NOT BY MUCH!), does it multiply the damage points by something, just like it does with support points at the beginning?

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 7:36:37 PM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		In the editor, you have the option of increasing the value of certain units. Perhaps, as an "AI Advantage", your units are worth more than their actualy value, worth say 25% more points than their actual value.




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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 7:58:09 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Can't remember which page of the manual I read it but,"between turns 15 to 19 the computer is supposedly to do a status check on morale and progress,THIS WAS SPECIFICLY ON DELAY,," and increase the rear VH's points values if u have victory frontage ON,??? and I'm not sure if that was for PBEM games or involved the long campaigns? THINK I POSTED IT WHEN I WAS ARGUEING WITH VAHAUSER  

< Message edited by Riun T -- 11/14/2006 8:02:43 PM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 8:46:29 PM   
spwaw


Posts: 70
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From: Siberia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

Can't remember which page of the manual I read it but,"between turns 15 to 19 the computer is supposedly to do a status check on morale and progress,THIS WAS SPECIFICLY ON DELAY,," and increase the rear VH's points values if u have victory frontage ON,??? and I'm not sure if that was for PBEM games or involved the long campaigns? THINK I POSTED IT WHEN I WAS ARGUEING WITH VAHAUSER  



Hmm.If anyone knows PBEM "15-19 scoring system" for sure.....PLS tell it

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 8:53:56 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		A scenario designer can add as much as 100% to the value of any units you lose, but I don’t know of something like this in a long campaign. SPWAW has been tweaked and patched so many times its amazing that anything still works as advertised. I never worry with the score anymore. If they had the objective and you took it, then you won. Patton would not have been pleased if he had a great kill ratio but had failed to relieve Bastogne or lost the bridge at Remagen.

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Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 9:46:57 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

A scenario designer can add as much as 100% to the value of any units you lose, but I don’t know of something like this in a long campaign. SPWAW has been tweaked and patched so many times its amazing that anything still works as advertised. I never worry with the score anymore. If they had the objective and you took it, then you won. Patton would not have been pleased if he had a great kill ratio but had failed to relieve Bastogne or lost the bridge at Remagen.


This was just one of those randomly generated scenarios in a long campaign, but don't know if that is taken into consideration. Ended up almost being my version of "A Bridge Too Far". Captured the back two victory hex locations first and had to hang in until the armor arrived. I knew I wasn't going to do better than a minor victory because I lost 11 tanks, but just want to understand the point system better. Maybe a Rubik's Cube would be easier to figure out

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Post #: 12
RE: Scoring System - 11/14/2006 10:25:13 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Also, the game was originally designed for small unit battles (like 20 units per side). The victory hexes have a max value of I think 250 points. So if you have a 1000 point force and try to take 6000 points worth of VH’s, then you are guaranteed a DV if you take all of the objectives, even if you nearly were wiped out (won 6k/lost about 1k, DV). Now try it with a 17000 point force. The VH’s are already maxed. You have pretty much a brigade attacking a company’s objectives. If you lose 4k and cause 5k damage, but take all the objectives, now you draw (won 11k/lost 4k). The strategy changes from “screw the casualties, take the hill!” to “This place isn’t worth the lives of my men!”.

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 1:55:00 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		I saw Mr Wood reading this thread, but he did'nt volunteer any info or insight.



< Message edited by Alby -- 11/15/2006 4:30:14 AM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 3:32:52 AM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline 		I've been doing a little testing and experience level does seem to come into play. I set up two identical forces to go against each other, where the only difference was experience level. One side had an experience level twice the other. I let the less experienced side capture all the victory hexes and destroy the more experienced side. After subtracting the points for the victory hexes, the amount left over was essentually twice the cost of the destroyed units.

Next, I set the stronger side up with three times the experience of the weak side. When that test was complete, the points left over were about three times the cost of the destroyed units.

Finally, I let the weak side win. In that case, points after the victory hexes were deducted was equal to the cost of the destroyed units.

The math wasn't perfect. There was a deviation in each case, but the deviation was within 1%. Also, I didn't test to find out if the experience weight is based on per unit or per man. A 2-man scout team may not have as much effect on the overall experience as a 10-man squad. Not that bored to dig into it

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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 4:16:39 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Great work! What version do you play? In the tests I did with 8.3, the experience didn't affect the result. I had a platoon of armored cars of various levels of experience but I got the same red points for each one that was destroyed. Your test seems much more convincing. This could explain a lot of things. I've been trying to put together a thread on everything we actually know about the scoring system.

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 5:26:14 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline 		Ran the test on 8.403. There still might be some pieces missing since my test was on a very simple scale (3 units vs. 3 units), but experience definitely is a factor. The test was a meeting engagement as well. Not sure if things might be further modifed on advance/delay and assault/defend.

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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 6:33:41 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Super!
I think that if enough of us ran a few similar tests then we could at least narrow down where most of the score comes from.
Of course, there is no magic wand to fix large battles. Even with the editor, there are only so many VH's that you are allowed to place and 250 is the max value for one. Its like having a scenario where the 1st British Para division is fighting to hold the last bridge over the Rhein until Monty gets there, only to find out that the bridge is worth 250 points.

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 7:51:49 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		I've spent the last two nights sifting and screenshoting various parts out of the manual that have just made me come up with more questions,and not all of them to do with scoreing, so bear with me and these posts because I'm mostly directing them at Micheal Woods.
First one is : when playing a long campaign, is the AI battle generator offering, or interpreting all the same selections to the AI as the individual "BATTLE GENERATOR" gives to the EDITOR/player,,, like reactionary hexes??,or actually playing a delay where it tells u like in some of the designed mini campaigns{raiders of the sahara comes to mind}that u should actually exit the map with as few casualties as possible.?
Does the AI get to or have to use the "All formations objective"[master flag?] like u should when u design a battle with the generator yourself?? or does it use a dumbed down version of its own long campaign Generator that generalizes things like delays or platoon based objectives and only stupidly chases to the highest valued VH's?? just how is the AI prioritizing its advance/delay/assault/defend/ missions,and objectives?? 




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Riun T -- 11/15/2006 11:25:41 PM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/15/2006 11:54:23 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Now does the underlined mean that the AI opperated forces for a long campaign will not persue VH's after turn 25 OR just your AI opperated forces???
And if ALL AI controled forces,enemies in campaign or Allies in core,are going to stop advanceing by turn 25,, than if u where playing a delay and wanted to get an exit type victory while playing under victory hexes with a points per turn basis,would u not have to start your units withdrawl around say turn 19-21 in order to travel them to the retreat hexes?

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Post #: 20
RE: Scoring System - 11/16/2006 1:05:23 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		It means after 25 turns the computer generated forces will not follow the waypoints you set for them.
and will probably revert to what I listed below.
Most scenario designers know how many turns it should take the forces they set way points for, to reach their objectives and I am not sure how many designers actually use the waypoints. In the scenarios and campaigns I have edited for Enhanced, i have not seen that many used.
waypoints really have nothing to do with AI forces in Long Campaigns.
Number 3 listed below does however.

Mike Wood made some code changes in the latest Mechs concerning how the AI moves.

3) Rewrote bit of code that determines where a unit will move. In meeting engagements, if a unit was closer to a friendly hex than an enemy hex, it would move towards that hex. When visibility was high, that put most friendly units closer the friendly hex and most would move to that friendly hex and mill around. Now they will only move towards a friendly hex if there are no enemy hexes left or they are very close to the friendly hex, else they will move towards an enemy hex.


< Message edited by Alby -- 11/16/2006 1:11:52 AM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/16/2006 4:07:50 AM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		I guess I'm tryin to ask what makes the AI in long campaigns deploy its units with the dispersement it does?? is it all random? with the fastest enemy units getting to the farthest VH's by coincidents??,,,and why would the game still pick battles titled as delay for long campaigns when theres only 3 types of battle that the AI has recognition of??it will never pick exit victory type delays and doesn't know how to use at least half of the special units for things like the reactive VH's.
Does the AI pick,purchase,and deploy based on the historical ratings?and does the AI have to pick objectives or are the VH's points differences and distance from front line been involved in their fighting style?

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Post #: 22
RE: Scoring System - 11/16/2006 5:05:15 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

I guess I'm tryin to ask what makes the AI in long campaigns deploy its units with the dispersement it does?? is it all random? with the fastest enemy units getting to the farthest VH's by coincidents??,,,and why would the game still pick battles titled as delay for long campaigns when theres only 3 types of battle that the AI has recognition of??it will never pick exit victory type delays and doesn't know how to use at least half of the special units for things like the reactive VH's.
Does the AI pick,purchase,and deploy based on the historical ratings?and does the AI have to pick objectives or are the VH's points differences and distance from front line been involved in their fighting style?

I am not sure about spwaw, but I know in that other game..
The AI is coded to judge certain Victory hexes more importantly than others during deploy,(like flag #s 0, 7, 14, or some such) so it deploys as such.
Could be the same here, dont know for sure.



< Message edited by Alby -- 11/16/2006 3:04:49 PM >

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RE: Scoring System - 11/16/2006 6:04:05 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

My name is Michael Wood, not Micheal Woods.

References in the rule book, concerning way points and objectives are for scenario authors. Scenario authors do not create the scenarios in the long campaigns. They are created by the artificial intelligence. It uses a differing method than a human scenario author would and uses completely different sets of routines for generated battles, random campaigns and the WWII long campaign. Exit victory hexes and the like were added to the game long after these artificial intelligence routines were written and they do not know about these new objectives and conditions.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

I guess I'm tryin to ask what makes the AI in long campaigns deploy its units with the dispersement it does?? is it all random? with the fastest enemy units getting to the farthest VH's by coincidents??,,,and why would the game still pick battles titled as delay for long campaigns when theres only 3 types of battle that the AI has recognition of??it will never pick exit victory type delays and doesn't know how to use at least half of the special units for things like the reactive VH's.
Does the AI pick,purchase,and deploy based on the historical ratings?and does the AI have to pick objectives or are the VH's points differences and distance from front line been involved in their fighting style?


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Post #: 24
RE: Scoring System - 11/16/2006 6:23:41 AM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		thanks mike sorry about the spelling,I'm just asking because if your following what the progress of the Flashfyre effort, check out what I get for the score of the Mateur fight I'm on right now. Iv'e only played to turn 3 on the posts but I'll show the results,as it ended on turn 5,,, Their quick demise came mostly from poor deploy strategy,and I think it increases my interest in how the AI compiles its force and decides its deploy schedule.

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Post #: 25
RE: Scoring System - 11/16/2006 7:37:54 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Just a fast added note that if anybody was interested in doing a MOD,or newer version that did know how to incorporate the other victory conditions types into the long campaign,or single against the AI battles, I'd be real interested in helping.RT

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Post #: 26
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